Ravenea albicans

[Matt in SD]

I got some Ravenea albicans from RPS a couple months ago.  From what I've heard, what is sold as Ravenea albicans is often not the real deal.  Well one has germinated and now I'm getting interested...The seed is an odd shape, flat on one side sort of like a hemishphere with a diamter of 15-20mm.  And now I know that it is a remote germinator, the radicle went about 2 cm then germinated and I have a spike going up and a fat root going down.  Since Palms of Madagascar doesn't have a description of R albicans seed, there's no way to know, but so far the only thing even similar is R louvellii which is closely related to R albicans.

Has anyone else gotten seed from this latest RPS batch?  Anyone germinated the real R albicans before?  I know that I'm just a couple months at most away from knowing for sure (it should be a bifid leaf with white undersides according to POM which is unique), but I'm sort of impatient.  

And finally, anyone in SoCal or similar climate tried to grow this one before?

Matt

[Tyrone]

Yes, I got some R albicans from that batch. From 12 seeds I've had 7 germinate and they're growing vigouriously. I should pot them up individually-note to self pot them up. I bought some albicans about 3 yrs ago and they turned out to be something more like louvelii, ie pinnate emergent leaf and no white underneath. That batch were very slow germinators, and growers and unfortunately died of root rot problems after about 2 yrs. I think my greenhouse skills have improved a bit since then. The way to tell if albicans, is the bifid leaf and white undersides, and as mine haven't opened the first leaf I don't know what they really are yet. R louvellii has a similar seed to what I have now, I think they have 2 or 3 seed per fruit therefore the flat sides. This batch of seed are considerably larger than the last. R lakatra has a similar but smaller looking seed to this one as well.

Happy growing

regards

Tyrone

[Matt in SD]

Thanks Tyrone,

It sounds promising.  From POM, I also had the impression that these seeds were larger than R louvellii, and it said Lakatra has a pointed end, which these do not.  So it seems that they're either the real deal, or something new...either way interesting.

Did your seeds germinate over a very short period or was there a good deal of time between the first and last germinator?  I had one (out of 14 seeds) germinate ~2 weeks ago, but none of the others have popped yet.  I'm worried that the others may be no good, I did get these at least a couple months after they were first listed.  I'm so impatient!  I really should put a locking timer on my germination tank so that I can't check it so often!

Matt

[Jeff Searle]

Matt,

         Ahh yes, now were talking rare. I also recieved some of the same seed. And they are starting to germinate like yours. When I saw these listed, I was surprised and jumped on them fast.

        I own exactly 2 plants that are now I think 11 or 12 years old. They are doing great, but this is one of the slowest palms in the world, the world! I have one plant(15-18") in the ground now 2 1/2 years. The other plant is still in a pot.  Now that I know that there is a chance of growing this and actually having success, I will plant the other one next summer in the yard. It is probably in the top 5 of what I consider the "hardest palm to replace" if I had to find another one. Which right now, is impossible to do. I would also be interested if anyone else has one, or had one in the past.

      I will try to post a pic. But I am really busy this weekend with the Fairchild Tropical Garden Palm Sale this weekend. Maybe next week. I'll get Ryan(Palmarum) maybe to help(push me) to get this done.ASAP...

[Jeff Searle]

I almost forgot to mention. My 2 palms do have the classic white underside.

[Tyrone]

Hi Matt,

This lot of albicans seed was actually very fast germinating. The first one popped about one to two weeks after I recieved them. About 5 popped about a fortnight after that. The first lot of albicans seed which turned out not to be albicans took many months to pop and then sporadically over many months after that. I think I got 4 out of ten and two rotted very quickly. What I've found with these type of Ravenea's is they don't need high temps to germinate, and they seem to like a bit of night cooling where the condensation really forms heavy in the container. They seem to need this to grow well, and I think this represents the humid montane environment that they originate from. These were not difficult to germinate IMO.

Keep us posted. I'll post some pics in due course.

regards

Tyrone

[cfkingfish]

I also received a quantity of R. albicans seed, germination rate is great to say the least. The seed reminds me of a minature version of Latania lontaroides.

[jdapalms]

Below is a picture of my Ravenea albicans in Hawaii. I have not tried to grow one outdoors in Southern Calif. so I don't know how they will do but I feel that they should grow there as many of the other Ravenea's do.

This is a beautiful palm. I only know of a few around. The seed has a very short shelf life if your lucky enough to get good seed. I  imported seed years ago and did not do well with the germination. Anyone else out there growing this one? Post a picture this is one worth looking at.

Jerry

JD Andersen

[Matt in SD]

Nice plant Jerry.  I'm sort of hopeful that this current seed batch is the real deal, we'll see.

Tyrone, now I'm nervous that my other seeds aren't going to sprout.  I ordered later than you so they aren't so fresh.  I guess I could put them out in my greenhouse where they would get cool nights...but I just set up a germination tank that I was thinking/hoping would work better.  I am (was) planning on growing the seedlings in this germination tank through the winter as well.  The air in there is pretty much a constant 80-85F with 90% humidity, the germination boxes are a bit warmer.  Well we'll see how it goes.

Hopefully in 30 years or so we'll have a plant at eye level or so!

Matt

[Zac in NC]

Wow. Those are nice Jerry. Hope they grow well for you Matt.

Zac

[Jeff Searle]

Jerry,

    Wow, thats the largest R. albicans I have ever seen. It looks to be about 4' tall.  Extreamly nice! Thanks.... :cool:

[Matt in SD]

OK guys,

I'd imagine that Jeff and Tyrone probably have some with the first leaf open as well now.  This is looking like a very interesting palm, but it does not have the white leaf undersides as reported for R albicans.  At this point I'd have to call it Ravenea 'mealy bug'.  Check out the photos below.  And if either of you have any ungerminated seeds, take a file and file off the little point (where I belive the seed was attached to the infructescence).  I had only one seed germinated in October with all the rest showing now action. A few weeks ago I filed two like this and both sprouted within 2 weeks (I'm going to post about this in the germination sub-forum).

Here's a view from the top of the leaf.  Note all the white fuzzies on the leaf surface and petiole

[Matt in SD]

And the leaf undersides...obviously not solid white, but there is quite a bit of tomentum (at least for a Ravenea)

[Matt in SD]

And a closeup of the petiole.  Pretty cool I think!  At this point I think there are two possibilities:

1)  Ravenea albicans does not always show the white leaf undersides on the first leaf (maybe different populations with different seedling traits)

2)  This is an undescribed Ravenea.  It is a remote germinator, and is clearly not Ravenea lakatra or louvellii which along with albicans I believe are the only remote germinating Ravenea.

[MattyB]

Sweet!  Nice job on the germination.  I like the flecking.  Keep us posted.

[DoomsDave]

JDA:

Ohh, dear!  That's PRETTY.

Any for sale?

dave

[Utopia Palms]

Hi Matt in SD

By the looks and sounds of things you have the true sp, both R. albicans and R.louvelii are VERY slow but I would say R.louvelii takes first prize, this sp looks like a young Chamaedorea elegans as a seedling, where as R.albicans holds an entire bifid leaf for up to 3 to 4 years before dividing. The white colour on the under side of the leaf will start in the next few leaves

You will have to keep it well protected in your area, as it does not seem to like the cold! It seems to like a well drained mix but does not want to dry out, and grows best in a shady position when young.

It would make a good potted palm for your collection as after about 6 to 7 years it will only be about 2ft tall. I hope it grows well for you good luck.

Clayton.

[Tyrone]

Hi Matt,

I had about 10 out of 12 come up and most are pinnate. Also no white underneath on mine. Mine are very deep green with all that tomentum as well. They seem strong little growers with what is a very tough leaf to begin with. It's almost like cardboard. I'll have to post some pics when I can get into my overpacked greenhouse.

best regards

Tyrone

[Jeff Searle]

Matt,

    You have a good looking seedling there. My two plants that I own, were bought about 12 years ago, so I never got to see them as a seedling.

    My seedlings now, are not quite this far along. They are spikes that are just above the soil line.

    I agree with Clayton, the white coloring on the underside of the leaf will probably come later. I'm certainly praying along with all you guys that this turns out to be the real species.This is a beautiful palm that needs to get started in cultivation.

Jeff

[Utopia Palms]

Hi Jeff, I think you will find that your ones are from seed I sent you in 1997. I would have a guess that Jerry’s one is around the same age as your ones, as this was some of the first seed on the market...

Jerry may I ask how old is your R.albicans?

Clayton.

[Jeff Searle]

(Utopia Palms @ Jan. 24 2007,06:59)

QUOTE

Hi Jeff, I think you will find that your ones are from seed I sent you in 1997. I would have a guess that Jerry’s one is around the same age as your ones, as this was some of the first seed on the market...

Jerry may I ask how old is your R.albicans?

Clayton.

Clayton,

 I'm pretty sure my two plants are much older than from "97". I believe I bought these two plants from J. Marcus earlier. I will check latter. I think they are one of the slowest palms in cultivation for me.

Jeff

[Matt in SD]

Thanks guys,

Tyrone, you said yours came up with "pinnate" leaves, I assume you mean multiple leaflets as opposed to bifid (mine is obviousliy bifid).   That's odd, I'll be curious how the rest of mine turn out.  Maybe there are two different types of seed mixed together?

I've been growing this palm in what is essentially a terrarium.  A fish tank with bottom heat, a nearly sealed cover and a full spectrum light.  It is about 80-85F in there 24 hours a day.  Surprisingly I've got some Geonoma undata seedlings in there too that are growing like crazy, much faster than in my greenhouse which cools down at night.  The Ravenea is is growing very quickly in there (as are all my other palms in this tank).  I'm planning on moving it out to the greenhouse once it warms up outside.

Dave, I'm hoping that the others will germinate now that I've filed them and I should end up with 13...if I still have more than 4-5 after a year or two, I'd be happy to sell/trade you one.

Matt

[Kim]

You guys amaze me.  That is a beautiful little palm Jerry has, too bad they are so slow to reach that size.

Matt, put me on your list as a potential buyer.  I promise not to kill it.

[jdapalms]

Matt,

Those seedlings look nice and maybe they are Ravenea albicans. Time will tell. The seed I see in your picture looks like what my seed looked like.

I do have a younger plant holding about 4 leaves. The leaves are all bipinate and elongated at this stage and all have a whitish underside.

Clayton, the plant I have pictured seems to me to be pre 1997. Unfortunately I do not keep good records so I am not sure of the exact age of the palm.

Jerry

[BS Man about Palms]

Awesome Matt!  Another fan here!

Bill

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

Hello Guys,I Hope this information helps you out esp others growing these 2 'sp' of Ravenea.If you check out Claytons post No:17 {still not sure how to use quote will work that out soon} I Personally think thats the best information I,ve seen for anyone not sure on these palms R.albicans or R. louvellii.Take note of that u can learn something new every day guys    Also can tell you the exact Dates of  these 2 'sp' The First collection introduced into cultivation.The month will do,For R.albicans May 1997 R.louvellii March, Seedling where sent to Flecker Botanic Gardens here in Cairns, Accession books tell all. And seed was sent to Jeff Marcus, And others.Jerry by the look of you plant your growing it prefect nicest one I,ve seen by far .The size also matches with the approx time of Collection, you did say you got yours from J Marcus,10 years would be a match 4 sure.Just shows how slow these guys are, sure it seems longer.Michael Ferrero will be in Cairns in the next couple of days {he's got books and books  also Field trip notes also in his head you name it Michael will let you know all about it,Not just with palms either,Michaels memory is  amazing if your keen to learn something just ask Michael Ferrero.

[Howeadypsis]

what is meant by remote germinating?

[Jeff Searle]

(Jeff Searle @ Jan. 24 2007,07:37)

QUOTE

(Utopia Palms @ Jan. 24 2007,06:59)

QUOTE

Hi Jeff, I think you will find that your ones are from seed I sent you in 1997. I would have a guess that Jerry’s one is around the same age as your ones, as this was some of the first seed on the market...

Jerry may I ask how old is your R.albicans?

Clayton.

Clayton,

 I'm pretty sure my two plants are much older than from "97". I believe I bought these two plants from J. Marcus earlier. I will check latter. I think they are one of the slowest palms in cultivation for me.

Jeff

Clayton,

      I just went out to look at my one plant here in the nursery(the other is planted at my yard) to have a look at the original tag in the pot. I was correct when I said, these plants are older than the "97" seed. My 2 plants are from 1993 and came in under the name Ravenea sp. Raomaltra. This makes them 13 years old now. So, I'll bet that Jerry's plant is from the same batch of seed. And his plant has grown much more than mine. ( All that Hawaii rain). I have no record on the tag from where the seed came from, or how many seed came in. I want to say, that I probably bought these as very small seedlings and not grown from seed, but I can't be 100% sure.

Jeff

[Jeff Searle]

(calyptrocalyx&licuala freck @ Jan. 25 2007,03:05)

QUOTE

Hello Guys,I Hope this information helps you out esp others growing these 2 'sp' of Ravenea.If you check out Claytons post No:17 {still not sure how to use quote will work that out soon} I Personally think thats the best information I,ve seen for anyone not sure on these palms R.albicans or R. louvellii.Take note of that u can learn something new every day guys    Also can tell you the exact Dates of  these 2 'sp' The First collection introduced into cultivation.The month will do,For R.albicans May 1997 R.louvellii March, Seedling where sent to Flecker Botanic Gardens here in Cairns, Accession books tell all. And seed was sent to Jeff Marcus, And others.Jerry by the look of you plant your growing it prefect nicest one I,ve seen by far .The size also matches with the approx time of Collection, you did say you got yours from J Marcus,10 years would be a match 4 sure.Just shows how slow these guys are, sure it seems longer.Michael Ferrero will be in Cairns in the next couple of days {he's got books and books  also Field trip notes also in his head you name it Michael will let you know all about it,Not just with palms either,Michaels memory is  amazing if your keen to learn something just ask Michael Ferrero.

Mike,

     You stated that Michael has some field trip notes in his head.  ??? From what I remember, he has never been to Madagascar,no?? When exactly was he there? Correct me if I'm wrong.Thanks.

Jeff

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

Jeff you Quoted the lot how about reading the LOT PROPERLY Where did I say that Michaels being to Madagascar, I think your reading things to fast, check it out.Talking about dates You jumped the gun Jeff..Hey Jeff,   you,ve been there tell me about your trip when You went 2 see R .albicans, What did it look like to you... ??? P.S. READ THINGS SLOWER JEFF.

[Jeff Searle]

Mike,

   If you read what I just wrote, I never said Michael F. WAS in Madagascar. I simply asked the question, has he ever been there,no??? When you said he had field notes, again, I was simply asking if he actually made a trip there and took notes in the field. I know Michael very well, so I can continue this conversation with him directly.

   I have never seen Ravenea albicans in habitat.

       And so you think my reading is too fast,  w  e  l l,  I  w  i  l  l     s  l  o  w   d  o  w  n,   j  u  s  t      f  o  r     y  o  u  .

Jeff

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

just 4 u Jeff,O.K. j e f f , a g a i n  y o u  h a v e  r e a d  b e t w e e n  l i n e s,  4  u , I d i d n't  s a y  M i k e  h a d  b e i n g  t h e r e , j u s t  a  s t a t e m e n t,  o f  M i k e s   k n o w l e d g e  .    A n d  f i e l d  n o t e s  a n y  c o u n t r y  o r  c o l l e c t i o n  M i k e   h a s  b e e n  h e 'l l  r e m e m b e r   a l l  p l a n t s  h e ,s   s e e n . CAN   Y O U, NO :laugh:  I f   y o u  d o  k n o w  m i k e  a s  w e l l  a s  u  s a y, t h e n  w h y  d o n 't u k n o w  HE HAS BEING THERE, SURPRIZED JEFF, c a t c h u p  w i t h m i k e  w h e n   u  c a n .    P.S. Now I will say he's being there ..... :laugh:  ing at you not with you.

[JakeK]

Jerry,

That's a fantastic looking palm!

[Utopia Palms]

Hi Matt,here are a few photos for you the first one is R.albicans still with part of the entire leaf this plant is about 10 years old.

[Utopia Palms]

And one more.

[Utopia Palms]

This is R.louvelii.ALSO 10 Years old!

[Utopia Palms]

One more photo of R.louvelii same age. Please note this is a 140mm pot with 10 years of growth this would have to be the slowest of all the Madagascaran palms, I have a few slightly larger ones but they are half the size of some of my R.albicans. Hope this helps, they are all very special palms. All the best.

Clayton.

[JakeK]

Clayton,

That is incredible that the palm in your photos is 10 years old! This palm has to be the 3-toed sloth of the palm world.

[Matt in SD]

Thanks for the photos Clayton. As you said it will be a great plant to keep in a pot...forever.  I have an R louvellii also, it's really a beautiful plant, even when small, which it will be for a long time, so that's very important.    

Jerry, you have R albicans listed at your nursery and I remember you telling me that you didn't think they were really R albicans (a year or two ago) because the first leaf did not have the silver underside.  But then someone I know was at your nursery recently and said they saw your plants and claimed they did have the sliver undersides now.  So what's your take now on your current batch of plants?  Clayton said above that they do not always get the white on the first leaf.

Matt

[Utopia Palms]

Yes Jake you could put it that way    :laugh:

Clayton.