Royals in Orlando

[SoLando]

A TON planted by the new SeaWorld waterpark [viewable from the Beach Line]. Also, some roads are lined with them in the MetroWest area. I didn't have a camera with me..but definitely check them out. Every now and then, one or two will pop up somewhere. I'll be monitoring them all winter to see how they fare.

[fastfeat]

Sounds like someone's got money to risk--I hope it's not FDOT using my tax $$...

I'm sure there are success stories from behind/around the Orange Curtain (FL version). I saw one tree in Winter Park right on a lake, where I'm sure it needed that extra warmth some nights.

Keep us apprised.

[DoomsDave]

fastfeat!

Nice to meet!

Like the avatar; one street says "Bud Ct" but I can't make out the other . ... .

[surgeon83]

Dave, it says "MARLEY DR, 5800."

I'm considering moving to Orlando; royals would be nice!

[DoomsDave]

Ahem:

"they confined me in Government House

For smoking too much ganja . . . "

[aricle]

Sounds like they've been keeping tabs on the dozen or so at the nearby Sheraton and figured they'd have a decent chance. I can't imagine what the convention center would look like if they decided to fit in a few hundred among all the dates. One can wish, right?

[fastfeat]

Dave--

Here's the original, shot in Riverside's Rasta District...

Not to be confused with Tweakertown in San Berdoo...(Santa Maria, actually...)

[Phil]

Jen,

I visited Disney World in the late 80's when even the Queen Palms had died.  It got down to about 17 degrees that winter.  But, because of Orlando's summer heat and humidity, a Royal can leap out of the ground and get quite large before the next killer winter (which may not come for many years).  People put in annual flowers.  Why not Royal Palms?

Phil

[Dave-Vero]

The freezes of the 1980s destroyed the citrus groves west of Orlando and killed queens on the coast in Brevard County, to the east.  Some royals survived on the coast in southern Brevard, more in Vero Beach (which still suffered a lot of casualities).

[Trópico]

Do not underestimate the Orlando palm growing power and potential!

Royalty in Orlando

[tikitiki]

I know of at 12 in Clermont One of wich has got to be 50 feet tall and seede every year. (west of Otown) and two in windemere. Pics to come.

Tom

[tikitiki]

Also I saw they unloaded dozens of kings to plant  for the water park as well.

[Eric in Orlando]

There used to be tall Royals around Orlando/Winter Park before the 12/83 freeze wiped them out. They were usually growing along lakes on the south/SE sides. I remember one house off of Michigan Ave. that had a whole cluster of them growing and were 30-50 ft tall. They were wiped out after 12/83 but seedlings grew and were killed by the 2nd big freeze in 1/85. Some grew back (amazing the seeds lasted thru freezes) but then were killed by the 3rd and worst freeze on 12/89.

I have seen them get planted around again. There is a nice specimen at a house along Par Ave.  by Dubstread Golf Course and it was planted in late 1995, survived 26F in 2/96 and is gorgeous today. Have seen a few planted near downtown. If you are downtown, look at the corner of South St. and Rosalind Ave. The big white building is the 1st Mehtodist Church. I planted 3 R. oleracea there in 7/04. They got beat up by the hurricanes and kind of sat there for a year but now have really started growing. I just saw them last week and 2 are starting to show some gray wood at the base. I planted one at the 1st UMC in Winter Park (a block off Park Ave.) along with a couple of Archontophoenix cunninghamiana.

[landarch]

The South Lake Hospital in Clermont just dedicted their new Permanent Outdoor labyrinth and Therapeutic Garden ( Designed by Land Art Landscape Architecture, Planting Design by Cryptobionic of this board). I will attach aireals. The 12' G.W. Royals were purchased as number two's so please, pardon the imperfections. ( Don't worry, this was funded by private donations, no FDOT funds involved).

[landarch]

and another

[ck_in_fla]

I live in Winter Springs (about 25 minutes from Downtown Orlando).  I am starting to see lots of Roystoneas all over town.  There is a large on in Casselberry, on Dike Road across from Lake Howell High School that is clearly visible from the street.

In 2001, I met a gentleman named Chris Carley (sp.?).  He asked me if I would be willing to participate in an experiment.  He told me a story about a street in St. Petersburg, FL that had been landscaped in the 1940's using Roystoneas.  Over the years, lots of these trees ultimately succumbed to freezes.  Eventually, all of them were gone except for two.  Chris felt that these two trees must have some genetic trait that allows them to resist the cold better than the others.  He collected seed from these trees and germintated them.  What he wanted me to do was plant some of these out in my Winter Springs, FL yard.  I eagerly accepted his kind offer.  When the trees arrived, they were 2 to 3 inches across at the base and 5 to 6 feet tall (to the top of the fronds).  These were fairly small Roystoneas.  I chose a location between my house and my neighbor's.  I wanted to choose a site that gave them the best chance of survival.

Skip ahead to 2007.  In the six years they have been in the ground, they have never shown any damage from the cold events.  In my area, we normally have one to three events each winter where the overnight temperature drops into the low 30's.  Since 2001, there have been two instances where we have seen 27 or 28.  Again, these trees have never shown any damage whatsoever.  The largest one is really big.  It is about 3 feet across at the base and has 14 rings on the smooth gray trunk.  The fronds tower over my roof.  My best guess is that the larger these trees get, the more resistant they will be to cold.  Obviously, there is nothing I can do to protect them due to their size.

If anyone would like to help me post pictures, I have one I took in 2001 and one I took recently.  The growth in 6 years is incredible.  I don't have a place to host the images.  I would be happy to email the pictures to anyone who could post them for me.

I'm guessing that I am probably a year or two away from getting seeds from the largest tree.  When this happens, I do intend to produce seedings to give away to others who would like to continue this experiment.

[spockvr6]

CK-

Send me the pics and I will host them.

larry.jolliffe@verizon.net

[bubba]

Along these lines, I can remember seeing pictures of tall ,mature Coconut palms from the 1950's that were apparently destroyed by the 1962 freeze.

[Dave-Vero]

Royals in Clermont?  That was a big citrus area until the 1989 freeze.

[TikiRick]

If I am not mistaken, Royals appeared all the way into Duval County (Jacksonville) along the St. John's River until just recently (past 40 years or so). Can someone confirm this?

[tikitiki]

(Dave-Vero @ Oct. 03 2007,13:15)

QUOTE

Royals in Clermont?  That was a big citrus area until the 1989 freeze.

It still was until the housing boom of 2000.

[Dave-Vero]

Scott Zona's comments in Flora of North America.  Bartram probably saw royal palms near Hontoon Island.

[ck_in_fla]

(Eric in Orlando @ Aug. 09 2007,08:57)

QUOTE

There used to be tall Royals around Orlando/Winter Park before the 12/83 freeze wiped them out. They were usually growing along lakes on the south/SE sides. I remember one house off of Michigan Ave. that had a whole cluster of them growing and were 30-50 ft tall. They were wiped out after 12/83 but seedlings grew and were killed by the 2nd big freeze in 1/85. Some grew back (amazing the seeds lasted thru freezes) but then were killed by the 3rd and worst freeze on 12/89.

I have seen them get planted around again. There is a nice specimen at a house along Par Ave.  by Dubstread Golf Course and it was planted in late 1995, survived 26F in 2/96 and is gorgeous today. Have seen a few planted near downtown. If you are downtown, look at the corner of South St. and Rosalind Ave. The big white building is the 1st Mehtodist Church. I planted 3 R. oleracea there in 7/04. They got beat up by the hurricanes and kind of sat there for a year but now have really started growing. I just saw them last week and 2 are starting to show some gray wood at the base. I planted one at the 1st UMC in Winter Park (a block off Park Ave.) along with a couple of Archontophoenix cunninghamiana.

Eric,

I remember those royals.  They were visible from Michigan Ave. (as you headed from Orange Ave. to I-4) off to the left.

I also remember a large building on Lucerne Ave (downtown) that was built in the shape of a "U".  As I recall, the building was 10 or 12 stories high.  So, the area inside the "U" was a perfect micro-climate.  There were two very large royals planted there.  I think those trees bit the dust when the building was demolished sometime in the late 70's or early 80's.

[FRITO]

great information in this thread.

Now anyone want to send me a royal hardy to 20 degrees?

[Dave-Vero]

The official low at Vero Beach airport in 1989 was evidently 23 degrees.  Less than a mile to the south, two royals survived.  One was beheaded by hurricane Frances.  Many others in town perished in 1989.

[Eric in Orlando]

I remember those Royals off of Michigan Ave. and the ones in the u-shaped courtyard. It faced south and made a perfect microclimate. One was still alive in summer 1985. It had survived the 12/83 and 1/85 freezes. It died a year or 2 later, it had been healthy, might have been weevils or delayed damage to the bud.

[Eric in Orlando]

Here is a recently planted R. regia at the Orange Co. Convention Center. It is planted amonst some new Queen Palms. I will be out there today for the FNATS nursery show and will get photos of the royals and coconuts down the street at the Sheraton. They look great.

[fastfeat]

(ck_in_fla @ Oct. 03 2007,11:25)

QUOTE

I live in Winter Springs (about 25 minutes from Downtown Orlando).  I am starting to see lots of Roystoneas all over town.  There is a large on in Casselberry, on Dike Road across from Lake Howell High School that is clearly visible from the street.

In 2001, I met a gentleman named Chris Carley (sp.?).  He asked me if I would be willing to participate in an experiment.  He told me a story about a street in St. Petersburg, FL that had been landscaped in the 1940's using Roystoneas.  Over the years, lots of these trees ultimately succumbed to freezes.  Eventually, all of them were gone except for two.  Chris felt that these two trees must have some genetic trait that allows them to resist the cold better than the others.  He collected seed from these trees and germintated them.  What he wanted me to do was plant some of these out in my Winter Springs, FL yard.  I eagerly accepted his kind offer.  When the trees arrived, they were 2 to 3 inches across at the base and 5 to 6 feet tall (to the top of the fronds).  These were fairly small Roystoneas.  I chose a location between my house and my neighbor's.  I wanted to choose a site that gave them the best chance of survival.

Skip ahead to 2007.  In the six years they have been in the ground, they have never shown any damage from the cold events.  In my area, we normally have one to three events each winter where the overnight temperature drops into the low 30's.  Since 2001, there have been two instances where we have seen 27 or 28.  Again, these trees have never shown any damage whatsoever.  The largest one is really big.  It is about 3 feet across at the base and has 14 rings on the smooth gray trunk.  The fronds tower over my roof.  My best guess is that the larger these trees get, the more resistant they will be to cold.  Obviously, there is nothing I can do to protect them due to their size.

If anyone would like to help me post pictures, I have one I took in 2001 and one I took recently.  The growth in 6 years is incredible.  I don't have a place to host the images.  I would be happy to email the pictures to anyone who could post them for me.

I'm guessing that I am probably a year or two away from getting seeds from the largest tree.  When this happens, I do intend to produce seedings to give away to others who would like to continue this experiment.

I'm posting these pics for ck_in_fla. Some pretty amazing growth over just a few years. Enjoy all!...

Nov 1, 2001:

April 25, 2004:

Nov 27, 2006:

more to follow...

[fastfeat]

(ck_in_fla @ Oct. 03 2007,11:25)

QUOTE

I live in Winter Springs (about 25 minutes from Downtown Orlando).  I am starting to see lots of Roystoneas all over town.  There is a large on in Casselberry, on Dike Road across from Lake Howell High School that is clearly visible from the street.

In 2001, I met a gentleman named Chris Carley (sp.?).  He asked me if I would be willing to participate in an experiment.  He told me a story about a street in St. Petersburg, FL that had been landscaped in the 1940's using Roystoneas.  Over the years, lots of these trees ultimately succumbed to freezes.  Eventually, all of them were gone except for two.  Chris felt that these two trees must have some genetic trait that allows them to resist the cold better than the others.  He collected seed from these trees and germintated them.  What he wanted me to do was plant some of these out in my Winter Springs, FL yard.  I eagerly accepted his kind offer.  When the trees arrived, they were 2 to 3 inches across at the base and 5 to 6 feet tall (to the top of the fronds).  These were fairly small Roystoneas.  I chose a location between my house and my neighbor's.  I wanted to choose a site that gave them the best chance of survival.

Skip ahead to 2007.  In the six years they have been in the ground, they have never shown any damage from the cold events.  In my area, we normally have one to three events each winter where the overnight temperature drops into the low 30's.  Since 2001, there have been two instances where we have seen 27 or 28.  Again, these trees have never shown any damage whatsoever.  The largest one is really big.  It is about 3 feet across at the base and has 14 rings on the smooth gray trunk.  The fronds tower over my roof.  My best guess is that the larger these trees get, the more resistant they will be to cold.  Obviously, there is nothing I can do to protect them due to their size.

If anyone would like to help me post pictures, I have one I took in 2001 and one I took recently.  The growth in 6 years is incredible.  I don't have a place to host the images.  I would be happy to email the pictures to anyone who could post them for me.

I'm guessing that I am probably a year or two away from getting seeds from the largest tree.  When this happens, I do intend to produce seedings to give away to others who would like to continue this experiment.

Also taken by ck_in_fla today:

Oct 04, 2007:

One more view:

[ck_in_fla]

Thanks to fastfeat for posting my pics.  He gave me some help so I think I will now be able to post for myself.

But, I wanted to follow up with some additional information.  If you look closely, all three trees started at approximately the same size.  But, by 2004 the one in the middle was significantly larger.  This is most apparent at the base.  This trend continues to this day as the base of the tree in the middle is forming that typical Roystonea bulge.

Also, I have seen some Roystoneas that exhibit an almost red crownshaft.  The tree in the middle does this as the last leaf ages and gets ready to fall off.  I will capture this in a picture and post it here the next time it happens.

Finally, I should tell you that my home was destroyed in a fire on December 4, 2004.  All that was left after the fire was the foundation and the exterior walls.  Due to the hurricane damage in my area, finding a contractor was nearly impossible.  Once I found one, getting building materials and labor was also impossible.  I can't tell you how many times I heard "All of that was sent to Mississippi or Louisiana...".  Dealing with my insurance company (Liberty Mutual) was also a nightmare.  The person handling my claim left and they never even notified me.  I spent weeks leaving voice mails and emails for people who didn't even work there.  The insurance company didn't even shut down the person's email and voice mail!  After 12 months, they stopped paying for my apartment and furniture rental.  The financial impact to my family was unbelievable.

When construction started, I made it clear to my contractor that my three Roystoneas had to be protected at all costs.  He gave me an argument, but I told him that this was a deal breaker and that if he couldn't guarantee that my trees would be protected, I would find another contractor.

During the winter of 2005-2006, we had one cold event where I think it dropped to about 28F.  I think we had 4 to 5 hours below 32F.  Since I wasn't living there, I couldn't do anything to protect my trees.  But, they came through it with flying colors.

We moved back into the house on October 20, 2007.  We were out of our home for 1 year, 10 months and 16 days.  But, we made it.

Now, these trees are much too large to protect.  From the front yard, they tower over the roof.  If I'm outside in the evening, many people stop and ask me about them.  With their history (read about this in my post above), I expect it will take a once in 50 years event to even damage them.  I firmly believe that the larger they get, the more cold they will be able to take.

[Phil]

I think it's apparent that some Royals have done well in the Orlando area over the short term.  Remember that lots of folks will plant flowering plants over and over as the years go by.  These grow as annuals and must be replanted each year.  So, what's wrong with planting a Royal Palm if it gets to these sizes and give enjoyment even though some day a bitter north storm may knock them down.  And, with more size, perhaps some specimens may make it through the cold.  Not withstanding that bad winter storm, this species seems to love all the heat and humidity that Orlando gets.  I think it all comes down to an optimistic viewpoint about the future.

Phil

[tikitiki]

I would rather enjoy Pinangas, Neoveitchias and Cocos in my yard for several years and start over than to look at them in a book everyday. The ironic thing is I lost a Carpoxylon in the wet and hot season .

[Eric in Orlando]

Those are growing nicely.

[Davidl]

Royals are very tough when they get big. We also had a low of 23 in 89 but I dont remember seeing any Royals killed. Our daytime winter temps are warmer than Orlando and much of the citys north of lake Okeechobee so I believe that must be the reason. We even had some christmas palms make it through the 89 winter. I think if they get big before the next big one hits they will have more luck.

[ck_in_fla]

(Davidl @ Oct. 05 2007,12:32)

QUOTE

Royals are very tough when they get big. We also had a low of 23 in 89 but I dont remember seeing any Royals killed. Our daytime winter temps are warmer than Orlando and much of the citys north of lake Okeechobee so I believe that must be the reason. We even had some christmas palms make it through the 89 winter. I think if they get big before the next big one hits they will have more luck.

Davidl is exactly correct.  I truly believe these trees are genetically predisposed to tolerate more cold than the average Roystonea (see my post describing the origin of these trees).  In addition, I agree completely with Davidl.  Once the crownshaft forms and rises above the ground, the tree is hardier than they were as seedlings.  Also, when there is a significant trunk further pushing the growing point higher, the trees are even hardier.  All of this is based on my experience and my personal observation of the experience of others who have planted Roystoneas in this area over the years.  As others have pointed out, choosing a site that gives the tree an advantage also helps.  Point in case, for a number of years there was a Cuban restaurant on the east side of Orange Avenue just north of Michigan Street (in Orlando) that had a mature Cocos nucifera growing in the parking lot in front of the building.  The black asphalt parking lot soaked up heat during the day and helped keep the soil temperature a few degrees higher at night.  A perfect example of an excellent site for a marginal tree.

[Jason in Orlando]

(SoLando @ Aug. 05 2007,12:08)

QUOTE

Also, some roads are lined with them in the MetroWest area.

Where?

Jason

[ck_in_fla]

I just noticed something interesting.  If you compare two of the pictures of my Roystoneas, you can see how fast they are growing.

Look at the pictures dated 10/04/2007 and 11/27/2006.  There are two pictures with exactly the same perspective.  Count the visible rings on the largest tree (the one in the middle).  If you look carefully, the first ring is visible immediately above ground level.  Count the visible rings in the picture.  On 11/27/2006, there are clearly 12 rings visible.  On 10/04/2007 you can see 17 rings.  So, in a little over 10 months, this tree produced 5 fronds.  This period contained the entire winter of 2006-2007.  I think this shows what kind of growth can be expected in zone 9B/10A inland Central Florida.  Perhaps others in this area have pictures in their collections they can use to provide comparative data.

[ck_in_fla]

(ck_in_fla @ Oct. 07 2007,08:55)

QUOTE

I just noticed something interesting.  If you compare two of the pictures of my Roystoneas, you can see how fast they are growing.

Look at the pictures dated 10/04/2007 and 11/27/2006.  There are two pictures with exactly the same perspective.  Count the visible rings on the largest tree (the one in the middle).  If you look carefully, the first ring is visible immediately above ground level.  Count the visible rings in the picture.  On 11/27/2006, there are clearly 12 rings visible.  On 10/04/2007 you can see 17 rings.  So, in a little over 10 months, this tree produced 5 fronds.  This period contained the entire winter of 2006-2007.  I think this shows what kind of growth can be expected in zone 9B/10A inland Central Florida.  Perhaps others in this area have pictures in their collections they can use to provide comparative data.

Update...

While mowing my lawn yesterday, I noticed that another frond was ready to come down.  So, there is another ring visible on he largest palm.  It's amazing the effect the heat and humidity of Central Florida can have on these trees.  Honestly, I think the larger they get, the faster they grow.

[ck_in_fla]

(bubba @ Oct. 03 2007,12:21)

QUOTE

Along these lines, I can remember seeing pictures of tall ,mature Coconut palms from the 1950's that were apparently destroyed by the 1962 freeze.

I moved to Florida in 1966.  From what I can tell, prior to 1962, there were lots of Coconut palms and Royal palms in the Orlando area.  It seems that the 1962 freeze was the point where people stopped planting them here.  I have seen some pictures taken in the late 1950's (1958, I think) that show Clearwater with Coconut palms everywhere.

Before that, the 1895 freeze is the one that caused major problems with the citrus industry.  I believe, prior to the 1895 freeze, citrus was produced commercially almost all the way to the Georgia border.

So, it would seem that between 1895 and 1962, the cold events were less frequent and less severe.

[Eric in Orlando]

There was a real bad freeze in winter 1957/58 that would have severely damaged or killed coconuts and royals in Orlando. I have been told that prior to that winter there was a main street in Orlando that had a stretch lined with Adonidia and another with Polyandrococos. Also there were quite a few big single trunked Caryota.  There used to be a good sized banyan tree downtown Orlando across from where the Sentinel is now.

The late 1700's was a warm period until around 1820. Citrus was grown commercially up to Charleston,SC including limes, and avocados (alligator pears back then) around St. Augustine. Arpund 1820 is what pushed citrus down into north and central FL then the big one in the 1880's pushed it further into central FL. In the late 1700s is when Bartram found royal palms wild along the St. John's River near DeLand.