Sabal uresana

[tank]

Was browsing through my pictures and saw this one of Merrill Wilcox's Sabal uresana.

Thought it was a good photo showing the size of this palm.

That's Merrill in the picture.

[Nigel]

Wow, what an impressive beast ( I dont mean Merrill ! ) , I had no idea they got so BIG.

How does Sabal uresana rate in growth speed vs other Sabals ?

[sonoranfans]

(tank @ Sep. 26 2007,12:13)

QUOTE

Was browsing through my pictures and saw this one of Merrill Wilcox's Sabal uresana.

Thought it was a good photo showing the size of this palm.

That's Merrill in the picture.

Wow that little seedling of mine will turn into that someday?  My uresana seedling is quite a bit more blue in color.  I have to wonder about that palm, it just seems extra large and not very blue.

Check out the pic at jungle music:

http://junglemusic.net/palms/sabal-uresana.htm

Its a very blue palm, supposedly the bluest of all sables and arrestingly so.

[waykoolplantz]

Golly-Gee thats a Purrty Palmtree

:laugh:

[tank]

Wow that little seedling of mine will turn into that someday?  My uresana seedling is quite a bit more blue in color.  I have to wonder about that palm, it just seems extra large and not very blue.

My small ones are bright grey blue as well.  Shocking blue is how I'd describe them.

Merrill described this plant as very blue when it was young.

David L. Jones in his book describes some them as often fading with age while others remain blue.

There has been some discussion on how grey/blue palms potentially fade or "dull" due to humidity and shade.

Maybe Merrill will give a better description.

[JD in the OC]

Are you sure that's not a Sabal bermudana?

I've seen S. uresana in habitat and they look a little different.  They don't have yellow hastulas as far as I know...

[Walter John]

Sabal uresana was one of our feature raffle palms at our palm and cycad society meeting last tuesday night, fancy that.

No, I didn't win it. Where the hell would I plant it ?

[merrill]

Hi, Jason:

Thanks for the posting - it's better than my photo of that palm.  

Hi, Nigel:

My impression is that uresana produces biomass, i. e.. dry matter, faster than any Sabal adapted locally, but doesn't excell in height.  Sabal  mauritiformis isn't  adapted here; S. maritima seems huge - just starting it.

Hi, sonoranfans: My poll a few months ago found uresana varies from green to bright blue/gray.  U. S. folk said as they age, they become more gray/green.  Gordon Smith's uresana in Maitland has illustrated this well; must be 35 or more feet tall; has slowly become more green.  My other uresana  is a dull green.  Tank, do you have a shot of the greener uresana?   I must interrupt for my Granddaughters birthday party.  Best Wishes, merrill

[Kathryn]

I hope that’s not an uresana. I thought they were about the same size as palmetto. Mine doesn’t have enough room where it is planted if it will get that big.

[swamptreenelly]

Sabal urseana

I think they are more cold hardy than most people think.

http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/Sabal/uresana.html

[Tad]

these are some uresana gallons, holding a nice silver color. this spring these babys will hit the dirt. I plan on using 20 or 30 around the yard and the rest go in the field!!

[FRITO]

that a nice huge specimen, I really like the sabal variety. I need to add this to my collection

~

[JD in the OC]

This is a green Sabal uresana in Nacapole Canyon, Sonora, Mexico

Some bluish juveniles in a marsh, San Carlos, Sonora.

And very blue mature trees in the same marsh

[tank]

(Kathryn @ Sep. 26 2007,19:45)

QUOTE

I hope that’s not an uresana. I thought they were about the same size as palmetto. Mine doesn’t have enough room where it is planted if it will get that big.

Kathryn,

They're not small!  I'm guessing you've got some time before it becomes an issue though.

[PalmGuyWC]

I have a S. uresana which was a beautiful blue when it was young. As it grew it lost that nice blue sheen. It is now grey and taking up a lot of room. They grow to be huge. Mine is not in full sun and is crowded. I suspect it would have better color if it recieved more sun. Mine is very slow  growing, and as Nelson suggests, they are much more cold hardy than most think.

I put mine in the ground when it was only a 1 gal. size, and it just sat and hardly grew at all for several years. I wish now I had grown it to a 5 gal. size before planting. I think this is true for most Sabals.  Let them get some size and root bound before planting them.

Dick

[tank]

Merrill,

How large was the Uresana in the picture when you put it in the ground and how long has it been there?

I do have some other pictures of your sabals in Gville, but I thought the two in the front of the house were bermudanas.

[merrill]

Hi, JD:

Thank You for your photos showing the variation in color of S. uresana.  Can you comment

on whether they are all large?  I haven't seen one that isn't quite large, more so than S. causiarum and S. domingensis   

The latter two have been much less cold hardy for me.  

Hi, Kathryn:  You may have hope of smaller S. uresana; they have lots of variation in color, at least.

Hi, Nelson:  I'm in total agreement; can't remember hearing of a cold-damaged S. uresana!

Best Wishes,

merrill

[merrill]

Hi, Tank:

The uresana in your photo was grown from seed in situ.  They were in the very deepest shade for many years; I'll

see if Everett remembers.

The uresana in the front yard were given to me by the fellow that went to Mexican habitat as described years ago in Principes.

Hodge, perhaps?  Hope I didn't mislead you; there are about six healthy S. bermudana [and one succumbing to weevils] at Forest Grove.  Best Wishes, merrill

[Kris]

Dear Tank & Friends  

first of all i was finding our forum dry & dull due to lack of palapa.but all of a sudden when i saw the stills in this thread my eyes brightened up and i feel charged with duracell alkaline batteries..since i always have a soft conrer for the Sabal.Sp...

thanks for those fentastic stills,

lots of love,

Kris  

[richtrav]

The origin of the plant has a lot to do with their blueness, the coastal ones around San Carlos are greener for the most part while the ones east of Hermosillo are an outstanding silver color from birth til death. Unfortunately the inland form appears to grow slower than the easier coastal types

[sonoranfans]

(merrill @ Sep. 26 2007,18:07)

QUOTE

Hi, Jason:

Thanks for the posting - it's better than my photo of that palm.  

Hi, Nigel:

My impression is that uresana produces biomass, i. e.. dry matter, faster than any Sabal adapted locally, but doesn't excell in height.  Sabal  mauritiformis isn't  adapted here; S. maritima seems huge - just starting it.

Hi, sonoranfans: My poll a few months ago found uresana varies from green to bright blue/gray.  U. S. folk said as they age, they become more gray/green.  Gordon Smith's uresana in Maitland has illustrated this well; must be 35 or more feet tall; has slowly become more green.  My other uresana  is a dull green.  Tank, do you have a shot of the greener uresana?   I must interrupt for my Granddaughters birthday party.  Best Wishes, merrill

Merill,  When I bought my seedling, the seller claimed that alot of uresanas sold were actually not uresanas, but some other sabal hybrid.  I have seen uresana x mexicana for sale as a "larger" sabal.  The jungle music pic in the link my past post looks like a mature palm with alot of blue.  I have seen uresanas in habitat(pics) with alot of blue at 30' + tall.  None of them seem so wide as yours merill and the color of the cut leaf bases are reddish brown, almost rust.  Perhaps likesome other blue palms, the blue color becomes more green in higher shade or perhaps in high humidity conditions.

[JD in the OC]

Merrill,

Yes, they very greatly in size.  That is why I try to go by seed size, leaf shape, and color of hastula.  Here is one growing at a Ford dealership in Sonora

Here is a blue juvenile in cultivation in Mexico

The marsh again, with my friend Wes for some scale

[JD in the OC]

Seeds of Sabal uresana x mexicana (notice how small they are)

Here is the mother Sabal hybrid

[JD in the OC]

Sabal bermudana (in cultivation)

Sabal bermudana leaf

Sabal "blackburniana" (these are easy to ID based on their upright, twisting inflorescence)

[JD in the OC]

And lastly a nice blue Sylvester for kris    

[sonoranfans]

Love the pics JD, very nice.  I guess I just have a thing for sabals.  How large does a "blackburniana" have to be for the first inflorescence.  I have a pretty large one(11' tall, 14(?) ft wide), 2+' clear trunk with none yet.  It was tagged( not a hand written tag, looked like it was printed on a plastic tie by machine) as "blackburniana". Some on the internet say there is no "blackburniana" its actually domingenisis.

[JD in the OC]

It should seed very soon.  The blackburn in the pic has been seeding for a few years already.

Blackburniana is not an accepted name.  I think it is a different species.

BTW, a large percentage of Sabal uresana in cultivation in the US are actually hybrids.  I have seen several blackburns and they all look the same- not much variation.

[Fouquieria]

Here's a pic of Sabal blackburniana that I took at Quail Botanical Gardens in Encinitas this last Spring.

-Ron-

[richtrav]

i still have trouble believing there is a mexiana x uresana cross in Sonora for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that mexicana is native many hundreds of miles away. The uresanas around San Carlos struck me as rather variable for a sabal. Neither did i notice any mexicana being cultivated in the area. That and the fact it's not terribly close to  uresana leaves me very skeptical. Uresana is an interesting species for sure

[JD in the OC]

Richard,

Boy I sure wish there were more Sabal experts.  It's an under-studied genus.  I'll just tell you what i was told...

I found a tree labeled as S. uresana at the Fullerton Arboretum (at my college).  I collected some seeds and sent them to Toby Spanner.  He said they were too small to be true S. uresana, which are button-sized, fairly flat seeds.  The leaves were indicative of S. uresana, as was the leaf color.  The strong costapalmate structure of the leaves, as well as lack of a colored hastula pointed to S. uresana, but the thickness of the stem and small seed size pointed to S. mexicana.  Toby's best guess was S. domingensis, which is possible, except for the leaves.

The Director of Horticulture at the Arboretum pulled up the archives and found out that the tree came from a mother plant at The Huntington in LA.  These mother plants have the same appearance and shape, as well as the same seeds.  He then contacted the curator of The Huntington to find out where those plants were collected and why there were discrepancies with the true S. uresana.  She searched her database and found out that the original seed was collected in habitat, in Mexico.  Her comment on the discrepancies was that they were collected within the natural range of S. uresana and S. mexicana.  I am not personally familiar with the geography of their habitats, but her best guess was that they were a hybrid between the two.  After studying S. mexicana in more detail- its small seed size, more robust trunk, and other indicators- I decided that a hybrid was a viable possibility and have gone with that ever since.  If anyone ever performs more substantiary research, I would certainly concede to the new findings.

[JD in the OC]

I just pulled this  off of www.floridata.com:

"Location

The Texas palm is native to the southern part of Texas, the Atlantic and Pacific coasts of Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala. The natural habitat of the Texas palm is the rich soil of coastal bottom lands. "

[sonoranfans]

(Fouquieria @ Sep. 27 2007,20:36)

QUOTE

Here's a pic of Sabal blackburniana that I took at Quail Botanical Gardens in Encinitas this last Spring.

-Ron-

It looks beautiful, more trunk than mine, but so similar otherwise.  How do they trim the old leaf bases to get it to look like that?  I heard it was with a chainsaw and it takes some skill.

[tank]

Chainsaw,

Some with more skill than others.

[tank]

From the pics, it appears that S. uresana has weeping and non-weeping forms, like S. palmetto.  Is this true throughout the genus?

There are a few mature S. palmettos in my neighborhood whose leaves "weep" in the extreme and really don't resemble the standard S. palmetto (I use the term "standard" loosely.  I'm using the trees in my yard as "standard".  Have never been moved and still have their boots).

[merrill]

Hi, Richard, JD and sonorafan:

Thanks for the generous info.  You guys have convinced me my "uresana" may be authentic.   It is bluer than the photo shows, and when young it was as blue as any uresana I've seen.   If it is a bit outsized, perhaps I'm just lucky! Best Wishes, merrill

[sonoranfans]

(merrill @ Sep. 28 2007,09:48)

QUOTE

Hi, Richard, JD and sonorafan:

Thanks for the generous info.  You guys have convinced me my "uresana" may be authentic.   It is bluer than the photo shows, and when young it was as blue as any uresana I've seen.   If it is a bit outsized, perhaps I'm just lucky! Best Wishes, merrill

It is a beautiful palm merill, just looks so happy and impressively massive, a magnificent specimen.  I understand about blue colors, they change with the light exposure, time of the day etc.

[merrill]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTING TANK:  Merrill,

How large was the Uresana in the picture when you put it in the ground and

how long has it been there? END QUOTE.

Hi, Tank:

My son tells me the uresana has been there for as long as he remembers.  It hasn't grown fast at all!  

Best Wishes, merrill

[Nigel]

What a fantastic thread this is. Fabulous pics and info thanks.

[Kris]

Thanks_JD for the phoenix still.

And by the way iam really feasting on the visuals that you all are feeding us with !

thanks & Love,

Kris  

[tank]

Merrill,

Here are the sabals from the front of your house.

I thought these were bermudanas.