If you were me, how would you amend?

[Cocoa Beach Jason]

I think I will be planting a 25 gallon chambey hookeri this weekend. I am located on a coastal barrier island in Florida. My soil is sandy and full of shells. I am assuming I am alkaline. My drainage is too good. I don't want this thing to dry out. I will push the envelope as far as sun is concerned (yes I know they like shade). There is little to no organic matter in my native dirt. Would you amend and if so, with what? I want to give this palm the best chance to thrive. I am thinking bagged top soil but I trust you guys more than myself regarding what to put in the dirt. Thanks in advance for the tips.

[DoomsDave]

Jason:

I've got a lot of Chambeys in the ground (28) and they like lots of moisture.

You will have a challenge on your hands from what I can tell.

I'd try to give yours as much shade as possible, and find a way to hold water in the soil. Ordinarily, I'd say more drainage is better, but you will need to make sure your plant gets plenty of water. In Hawaii they'll grow on lava, but they get rain all the time.

Hmm.

Maybe someone will chime in.

How about a picture of your beauty?

25 gallons sounds expletive awesome . . . .

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

I can tell you that amending beach sand is very challenging. First off, don't think of amending the hole, think of amending the whole, as in the entire growing area. You don't have to go very deep, just 4 inches or so. No need to put rich soil in the bottom of the planting hole either.

A 25 gallon can has a surface of about 4 sq feet I'm guessing. When your Chambey is full grown, it's roots will mine 200, 300 maybe 400 sq feet. That is a lot of amending but it gives you an idea of the challenges you face.

Here are some things you can try that have worked for me and others. You don't have to do them all but the more you do, the greater your success.

- Go to Dunkin Donuts and Starbucks, tell them you will take all their used coffee grounds. Spread the grounds all over your planting area, maybe an inch thick.

- Call any water filtration companies around you. Anybody that services charcoal filters for drinking water. Tell them you will take all their used charcoal. It comes in 40 or 50 pound bags I think. Spread that all over, maybe an inch thick.

- If you can find compost, spread that all over about 2 inches deep.

These are your soil amendments. If you have erfworms, they will turn all that into the top layers of your sand. If you don't have erfworms, go get some. Dig them up or buy them online or at a bait store. Without a healthy population of worms, you might have to spade your amendments into the first few inches of sand. Keep all this moist.

Now, to plant your palm. Dig a hole a few inches wider than the 25 gallon can. Dig it deep enough so that the root initiation zone on your Chambey is even with your soil. I say this because sometimes containerized palms sometimes push up a little on their tippy toes and the rooting zone is actually above the soil. Put the palm in the hole. Green side up. Try not to get your new organics under the rootball as they will eventually compost away causing your palm to settle, perhaps deeper than you want. A little bit of organics won't hurt though. Fill the hole around your palm about 3/4 of the way. You can use the sand you just dug out of the hole, you can use the organics I just described, or you can do what I usually do and just cave in the sides with your shovel, mixing sand and organics.

Now you want to add your high quality fertilizer. I use Nutricote, which is the same as the Dinomite they sell at the big box stores. Don't be shy with this fertilizer. I would put several handfuls onto a 25 gallon palm. Next is something a little unusual. Get yourself some Terrasorb or some other brand of water holding polymer. It looks like rock salt when dry and jelly when wet. A little goes a long way. One dry teaspoon will turn a 16oz glass of water to jelly. You want to mix a couple teaspoons of this with the remaining soil you are going to use to fill up the last 1/4 of your planting hole. Now, with a little extra soil, build a small circular dam around your newly planted palm. The damned dam should be high enough to hold the water and direct it to percolate through the root ball. Next, take a couple of extra hand fulls of your fertilizer and spread it all over the area you expect your roots to penetrate for the next 6 to 12 months. That means a circle of at least 4 feet wide. Remember that this fertilizer is rated to last 6 to 12 months so spread it where it will be put to good use. This fertilizer sometimes takes a few weeks to start releasing so maybe a little water soluble fert is in order to start things out. Don't go crazy with water soluble fert though. It is full of salt and the worms and other beneficial soil organisms don't like it too much. A few times a year with your hose end applicator works wonders.

Almost done. Now you have to mulch. If you put out bagged mulch, 2"- 4" is good. If you use tree chips from your local arborist, you want to spread it at least 6" deep as it will compost down and collapse a bit over the next few months. Don't pile the mulch against your palm trunk.

Keep in mind that you will have to restore your mulch every year. Your organics will compost down to small fines and wash into the water table or oxidize away into thin air. The charcoal should stay put pretty well but everything else needs to be replaced periodically. One of the easiest ways of doing this is planting canopy trees that shed a constant supply of leaves. Leaves are like gold. Don't throw them away. In fact, don't throw any of your yard trimmings away unless they are diseased, have insect infestations or have thorns. You want to compost everything in your yard.

[Cocoa Beach Jason]

Wow Jerry. thanks for taking the time to write that. That is a ton of info. Never heard of terrasorb. I will definitely look for it. Here is a photo sent to me by the grower to show the new red leaf. The lighting is not ideal so please forgive. The point of the photo was to prove the red.

[Palmdude]

Nice Chambey!

[redbeard917]

^I too enjoyed Jerry's advice. My two cents and a question. For organic matter, I get composted yard waste ("fine" grade) from the city dump which has the benefit of being free. What about the ashes from the fire pit, are they beneficial to palms and other plants?

[LJG]

I can tell you that amending beach sand is very challenging. First off, don't think of amending the hole, think of amending the whole, as in the entire growing area. You don't have to go very deep, just 4 inches or so. No need to put rich soil in the bottom of the planting hole either.

A 25 gallon can has a surface of about 4 sq feet I'm guessing. When your Chambey is full grown, it's roots will mine 200, 300 maybe 400 sq feet. That is a lot of amending but it gives you an idea of the challenges you face.

Here are some things you can try that have worked for me and others. You don't have to do them all but the more you do, the greater your success.

- Go to Dunkin Donuts and Starbucks, tell them you will take all their used coffee grounds. Spread the grounds all over your planting area, maybe an inch thick.

- Call any water filtration companies around you. Anybody that services charcoal filters for drinking water. Tell them you will take all their used charcoal. It comes in 40 or 50 pound bags I think. Spread that all over, maybe an inch thick.

- If you can find compost, spread that all over about 2 inches deep.

These are your soil amendments. If you have erfworms, they will turn all that into the top layers of your sand. If you don't have erfworms, go get some. Dig them up or buy them online or at a bait store. Without a healthy population of worms, you might have to spade your amendments into the first few inches of sand. Keep all this moist.

Now, to plant your palm. Dig a hole a few inches wider than the 25 gallon can. Dig it deep enough so that the root initiation zone on your Chambey is even with your soil. I say this because sometimes containerized palms sometimes push up a little on their tippy toes and the rooting zone is actually above the soil. Put the palm in the hole. Green side up. Try not to get your new organics under the rootball as they will eventually compost away causing your palm to settle, perhaps deeper than you want. A little bit of organics won't hurt though. Fill the hole around your palm about 3/4 of the way. You can use the sand you just dug out of the hole, you can use the organics I just described, or you can do what I usually do and just cave in the sides with your shovel, mixing sand and organics.

Now you want to add your high quality fertilizer. I use Nutricote, which is the same as the Dinomite they sell at the big box stores. Don't be shy with this fertilizer. I would put several handfuls onto a 25 gallon palm. Next is something a little unusual. Get yourself some Terrasorb or some other brand of water holding polymer. It looks like rock salt when dry and jelly when wet. A little goes a long way. One dry teaspoon will turn a 16oz glass of water to jelly. You want to mix a couple teaspoons of this with the remaining soil you are going to use to fill up the last 1/4 of your planting hole. Now, with a little extra soil, build a small circular dam around your newly planted palm. The damned dam should be high enough to hold the water and direct it to percolate through the root ball. Next, take a couple of extra hand fulls of your fertilizer and spread it all over the area you expect your roots to penetrate for the next 6 to 12 months. That means a circle of at least 4 feet wide. Remember that this fertilizer is rated to last 6 to 12 months so spread it where it will be put to good use. This fertilizer sometimes takes a few weeks to start releasing so maybe a little water soluble fert is in order to start things out. Don't go crazy with water soluble fert though. It is full of salt and the worms and other beneficial soil organisms don't like it too much. A few times a year with your hose end applicator works wonders.

Almost done. Now you have to mulch. If you put out bagged mulch, 2"- 4" is good. If you use tree chips from your local arborist, you want to spread it at least 6" deep as it will compost down and collapse a bit over the next few months. Don't pile the mulch against your palm trunk.

Keep in mind that you will have to restore your mulch every year. Your organics will compost down to small fines and wash into the water table or oxidize away into thin air. The charcoal should stay put pretty well but everything else needs to be replaced periodically. One of the easiest ways of doing this is planting canopy trees that shed a constant supply of leaves. Leaves are like gold. Don't throw them away. In fact, don't throw any of your yard trimmings away unless they are diseased, have insect infestations or have thorns. You want to compost everything in your yard.

"First off, don't think of amending the hole, think of amending the whole"

Love it

[_Keith]

You might enjoy this: http://www.growingagreenerworld.com/episode207/?utm_content=buffer754e4&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[DoomsDave]

Great advice Jerry!

[kwtimo]

I generally use a fair amount of black worm castings and mycorrhizal start ups in my planting mixes with great success. I also use a good bit of Nutricote or some other slow release fertilizer in the mix too. I'm digging in pretty much coral rock here in the Keys, so my method is dig large holes, raise slightly above the grade, and amend soil mixes properly. Annual top dressing of Black Cow and worm castings helps too. And yes, keep it hydrated!

[redant]

Jerry was right on target. Around me I can get free horse poop from west of me and have been using as a top coat around my palms. My soil is pure while sand the consistency of talcum powder. The poop is great and the horse poo does not burn like cow poo. Check you craigs list for free poop around you.

[Zeeth]

I can tell you that amending beach sand is very challenging. First off, don't think of amending the hole, think of amending the whole, as in the entire growing area. You don't have to go very deep, just 4 inches or so. No need to put rich soil in the bottom of the planting hole either.

A 25 gallon can has a surface of about 4 sq feet I'm guessing. When your Chambey is full grown, it's roots will mine 200, 300 maybe 400 sq feet. That is a lot of amending but it gives you an idea of the challenges you face.

Here are some things you can try that have worked for me and others. You don't have to do them all but the more you do, the greater your success.

- Go to Dunkin Donuts and Starbucks, tell them you will take all their used coffee grounds. Spread the grounds all over your planting area, maybe an inch thick.

- Call any water filtration companies around you. Anybody that services charcoal filters for drinking water. Tell them you will take all their used charcoal. It comes in 40 or 50 pound bags I think. Spread that all over, maybe an inch thick.

- If you can find compost, spread that all over about 2 inches deep.

These are your soil amendments. If you have erfworms, they will turn all that into the top layers of your sand. If you don't have erfworms, go get some. Dig them up or buy them online or at a bait store. Without a healthy population of worms, you might have to spade your amendments into the first few inches of sand. Keep all this moist.

Now, to plant your palm. Dig a hole a few inches wider than the 25 gallon can. Dig it deep enough so that the root initiation zone on your Chambey is even with your soil. I say this because sometimes containerized palms sometimes push up a little on their tippy toes and the rooting zone is actually above the soil. Put the palm in the hole. Green side up. Try not to get your new organics under the rootball as they will eventually compost away causing your palm to settle, perhaps deeper than you want. A little bit of organics won't hurt though. Fill the hole around your palm about 3/4 of the way. You can use the sand you just dug out of the hole, you can use the organics I just described, or you can do what I usually do and just cave in the sides with your shovel, mixing sand and organics.

Now you want to add your high quality fertilizer. I use Nutricote, which is the same as the Dinomite they sell at the big box stores. Don't be shy with this fertilizer. I would put several handfuls onto a 25 gallon palm. Next is something a little unusual. Get yourself some Terrasorb or some other brand of water holding polymer. It looks like rock salt when dry and jelly when wet. A little goes a long way. One dry teaspoon will turn a 16oz glass of water to jelly. You want to mix a couple teaspoons of this with the remaining soil you are going to use to fill up the last 1/4 of your planting hole. Now, with a little extra soil, build a small circular dam around your newly planted palm. The damned dam should be high enough to hold the water and direct it to percolate through the root ball. Next, take a couple of extra hand fulls of your fertilizer and spread it all over the area you expect your roots to penetrate for the next 6 to 12 months. That means a circle of at least 4 feet wide. Remember that this fertilizer is rated to last 6 to 12 months so spread it where it will be put to good use. This fertilizer sometimes takes a few weeks to start releasing so maybe a little water soluble fert is in order to start things out. Don't go crazy with water soluble fert though. It is full of salt and the worms and other beneficial soil organisms don't like it too much. A few times a year with your hose end applicator works wonders.

Almost done. Now you have to mulch. If you put out bagged mulch, 2"- 4" is good. If you use tree chips from your local arborist, you want to spread it at least 6" deep as it will compost down and collapse a bit over the next few months. Don't pile the mulch against your palm trunk.

Keep in mind that you will have to restore your mulch every year. Your organics will compost down to small fines and wash into the water table or oxidize away into thin air. The charcoal should stay put pretty well but everything else needs to be replaced periodically. One of the easiest ways of doing this is planting canopy trees that shed a constant supply of leaves. Leaves are like gold. Don't throw them away. In fact, don't throw any of your yard trimmings away unless they are diseased, have insect infestations or have thorns. You want to compost everything in your yard.

Great advice! I've tried calling a few places to get used charcoal and they think I'm nuts... The search continues though!

What is your opinion about mixing some peat moss into the soil (the kind that comes in those giant cubes)? I would think that it would be a good addition to alkaline sand, as it'd balance out the pH and increase the water absorbing ability. This is in theory though, as I've never mixed it into my soil before.

[Moose]

^I too enjoyed Jerry's advice. My two cents and a question. For organic matter, I get composted yard waste ("fine" grade) from the city dump which has the benefit of being free. What about the ashes from the fire pit, are they beneficial to palms and other plants?

Ash is very alkaline and should be avoided. I would only add to Jerry's advice to put huge mounds of mulch starting about six inches from the trunk out to 2 ft. past the drip line on top the compost. You compost will start adhering to the sand creating aggregates. Earthworms leave slime in their paths that further holds the organic matter and minerals together. Without a decent amount of organic matter in the soil, it will be difficult attracting the needed organisms for a healthy living soil.

[mnorell]

Listen to Jerry's amazingly detailed advice but like Moose I say up the mulch. I am now receiving huge truckloads of mulch from my arborist and planting straight into piles of it atop our caprock. I often will take a small amount of Black Cow or a similar topsoil/manure product, sprinkle it on top and wash it down into the mulch...repeating several times. This helps to give some added nitrogen and some fine texture mixed with the coarse hardwood- and leaf-mulch. The growth of roots is spectacular...truly spectacular. Nitrogen draw-down or not, it is amazing to lift a plant that has been in this pure mulch (and I mean a solid foot of it, very lightly composted for 2-3 weeks works beautifully for me) and see the masses of beautiful white roots that have exploded. I have never seen this before in my life...and am a complete convert. I really think a lot of this is due to the high oxygen levels and the gradual density increase as the mulch composts...not to mention the heat generated by a thick pile of composting mulch. It is not long before those roots find their way into the small cracks/holes in our limestone and anchor down from there while enjoying the developing black soil closer to ground-level in their little hammocks. I agree also about worm-castings and the worms themselves.

Zeeth...you are the coconut man, and I am surprised to see you asking about peat moss...you want to use coco-peat! Much better than peat-moss in many respects and of course it is readily available, to be found lying around in your own garden...another I notice here on Big Pine is that mahogany makes a great mulch, especially the spongy-woody sections of the seed capsules, which are wonderful gifts to your soil.

As far as fertilizer goes, check your pH and go from there. You might want to call Florikan and they perhaps could suggest an appropriate fertilizer that will slow-release and not just wash through your sand...and also that can best be absorbed by the roots depending on the fertilizer's derivation (oxide, sulfate or sucrate). Not sure if Tim Broschat is readily available but he is at UF and truly the fertilizer expert, and you could probably call or e-mail him and get a specific recommendation for your situation. His contact info is on a UF webpage for its IFAS program...you'll find it if you google it.

I find my C. hookeri to be one of my most trouble-free palms. I planted it down into a depression in the caprock and I think I just threw some chopped coconut fronds, Black Cow and what-not over the roots. High tech I know, but it has thrived! No issues with the basic soil/rock/chalk pH and I don't think I've ever fertilized it...though it is an area where the Key Deer sleep at night and so they probably deposit "recycled" fertilizers in its root-zone. I rarely ever water it (I did water it pretty much daily at first as it established) and it keeps pushing blood-red leaves slowly to moderately depending on rainfall amounts, though it has become covered and shaded-out by huge Alocasia and a couple of Cocos that are now molesting its airspace. Surprisingly enough it did fine in a good amount of sun right out of a 1-gallon from Floribunda. It is really a beautiful palm...I wish I had planted a grouping rather than a single individual, and I may still do just that.

[Dmcdonald]

I am not on the isand but just a few blocks west of US 1 in Melbourne. I started adding thr fine mulch topped off by a layer of regular course mulch from the dump a couple years ago since my "soil" was just dry white sand. Now after 2 years and 9 loads in an S-10 and 3 in a 3/4 ton Gmc I have rich black soil when you dig down. Before I never saw earthworms and know they are getting abundant. Tonight I found a decent size one on the walk in front of the house. All the plants seem to be doing well even though I did no fertilizer last year.

[trioderob]

Guys-

I know you guys are really into mulching but I have something to add.

I have gone the other way - not worrying about the organics on top - but what's in the soil itself.

to add organics this way you need ROOTS.

That means planting things like winter rye and letting it die and the roots that's are deep underground decay and leave organics BELOW the surface

which makes more sense - adding organics on the top or having this mass o roots adding organics deep into the soil ????

and this aint triode talking out his $%^ - I have scientific proof this works

Edited April 18, 2015 by trioderob

[Sabal Steve]

When the mulch breaks down and gradually changes the composition of the soil below. It's evident in my garden even after just a few years. Even in areas that I didn't mulch heavily. I add gypsum to break up clay too. I haven't tested your theory, but mulch has worked well for me.

[Moose]

Guys-

I know you guys are really into mulching but I have something to add.

I have gone the other way - not worrying about the organics on top - but what's in the soil itself.

to add organics this way you need ROOTS.

That means planting things like winter rye and letting it die and the roots that's are deep underground decay and leave organics BELOW the surface

which makes more sense - adding organics on the top or having this mass o roots adding organics deep into the soil ????

and this aint triode talking out his $%^ - I have scientific proof this works

Rob - I've done some intensive research regarding the creation of a living soil. What you are doing is great for your soil type. All those fine roots create pathways for water to deeply penetrate the soil. The decomposition of the roots over time adds organic material and improves the soil texture.

For the Florida folks, we are almost entirely gardening on top of limestone or in pure sand. All our rains decompose and wash out the organic matter in our soils rather quickly. The continual adding of mulch is very beneficial here. I've put down 12" of mulch, that gets reduced to 4" within a year. If no further mulch is put down, the following year only a thin layer of compost remains. The weeds really thrive in the compost so more mulch is essential, unless you love to weed.

[trioderob]

you guys in Florida that add mulch- if you dig into the soil after lets say 5 years of mulching - how deep into the ground do you see rich dark topsoil ?

[Sabal Steve]

Here's a spot in my yard that I recently turned over for a new planting.

The soil in my backyard is much better, but still heavy clay and rock. I've probably only added a few inches of mulch in this area over the years. It's much wetter too, as I am always hosing down the dog area. It was rich soil way deeper than I was digging.

[DoomsDave]

Jason, do please apprize us of your Chambey's progress. Remember, like Lay's p-chips, there's no need to limit yourself to just one.

Yours looks like a hookeri; if so, treat us to pictures of the red leaves from time to time.

[LJG]

Guys-

I know you guys are really into mulching but I have something to add.

I have gone the other way - not worrying about the organics on top - but what's in the soil itself.

to add organics this way you need ROOTS.

That means planting things like winter rye and letting it die and the roots that's are deep underground decay and leave organics BELOW the surface

which makes more sense - adding organics on the top or having this mass o roots adding organics deep into the soil ????

and this aint triode talking out his $%^ - I have scientific proof this works

Rob, this is interesting and I wonder if the long term benefits are really to the same level as mulching. Just me guessing but I would think while actively growing the grass robs moisture (bad for Cali) and nutrients from the soil verses just having your palms and mulch at the base. You are correct that once it died and started to decay that it would be a good thing but my fear would be once the grass rebounded during its growing season or if you planted more, that it would just out compete other plants for last years nutrients again. I am sure on a small scale it wouldn't be an issue but if you used this approach on a large garden, I would be curious to know if it is really better or worse then just mulching on top. Again, I am only looking at the comparison between traditional mulching and what you recommend here.

[Zeeth]

you guys in Florida that add mulch- if you dig into the soil after lets say 5 years of mulching - how deep into the ground do you see rich dark topsoil ?

I've seen up to about 3 inches of good topsoil in areas with hundreds of years of continuous oak leaf litter accumulation. 5 years might get you a half inch to an inch.

[Ken Johnson]

Any of you sandy people ever use lava rock as an additive?

[Cocoa Beach Jason]

Ken, is there a touted benefit to using lava rock in sandy soil?

[trioderob]

Len-

the cereal rye is a kind of oat its not "rye grass" - its totally different.

the cereal rye is planted in our rainy season or in Florida's rainy season before summer.

nitrogen fert is added and there is amazing fast growth of the rye/ oats / crimson clover / radish mix - we will call this "green manure" from here on out.

this green manure also pulls nitrogen out of the air (peas/clover/ fava bean...) by way of root nodules.

masses of roots break up the soil and most important - bacteria live on the roots- they don't live in the bare soil except in small numbers.

the green manure is cut down when its several feet tall and forms guess what ?- a layer of mulch on top.

now you can add mulch and it might be critical to do so in FL but I would not rely ONLY on mulch.

as was stated the mulch only forms soil about half inch on top. I tried this myself hauling in thousands of pound of cow crud.

it works ok but when I dug down after 3 years of it decomposing I was very disappointed with respect to how deep down the soil had been improved.

It really was only about half an inch - that's when I went on a search and learned about adding root mass.

I am convinced it works much faster

[Cocoa Beach Jason]

Brought it home today.

[Ben in Norcal]

Wow...

[DoomsDave]

hoo hoo weeee

Got me a new PSSC member over a hookeri with a reddie

[DoomsDave]

if you kill that thing

well

never mind . . .

[trioderob]

why so red ?

[Matt in OC]

Yowza!

[Rusty on Pine Is.]

Wonderful advice, all....because my soil is pretty much just sand, I try to "Vertimulch" whenever i get the chance....basically i simply walk around my palms with a stout punch bar, and poke holes in the soil ( I use the term 'soil' laughingly...) i used to try and put compost in the holes, but since i mulch all the time the organic detritus does get down into the hole, which are generally abt 6-9 inches.

One thing i have noticed about mulch being incorporated into the rhizosphere: whenever i mulch, abt a week later i have noticed mounds of soil particles deposited on top of the mulch, from the soil organisms that take exception to me changing the gas exchange properties of their environment.....so, at least from my observation here, the incorporation of mulch isn't from the top down...it is from the bottom up.