Dypsis Sp. Cuesta Linda

[ellidro]

I was just taking a closer look at one of my cuesta linda's and noticed it is dividing. I thought I read somewhere all the cuesta linda's in cultivation have stayed solitaire. Is mine a freak or did I get a baronii by mistake. I bought it from Phil at Jungle music and all the other ones I have from him have stayed solitaire.

[MattyB]

They do split Nick. Mine is about twice the size of yours now and growing like a madman or madpalm I guess. I think I have three trunks under the current leaf bases awaiting the reveal. I thought they were solitary also but BS told me he's seen them split too. Definitely different than the normal baronii I've grown. The only thing similar I've seen is the clustering D. ambositrae (not the real one another sold as it.)

[Dypsisdean]

The last time I talked with Jeff B. he told me he hadn't heard of any that weren't single. (For those who don't know, he has the only plant carrying this name.) So this is news, at least to me.

But many of these Dypsis will sucker/split, or sucker/split more, when given excellent conditions in cultivation.

[LJG]

Dean,

This plant was collected in the wild or at a resort in Madagascar (don't remember which) in 2005. Peter Balasky sold me one and when I got home basically it was a dead ringer for Jeff's plant. Tri (he is the brains - I am the brawn) confirmed it too as he saw both. The label I have is "Dypsis sp? Tampo". Peter only sold me one but he was stoked on this plant. So much so I did not have the heart to tell him I think this plant is already in cultivation as "cuesta linda". So I think if people really wanted to know more about Jeff's plant, they can now.......

[MattyB]

Another thing I really like about this plant is that it's held it's beautiful dark coloration so far. Phil Bergman is such an experienced grower with an amazing R.O. system and all of that jazz, that his plants colors are just amazing! Inevitably I bring them home, they start to get a little neglected, and in my dry inland air they loose some of that coloration. This plant is still colorful and has grown great for me with no special care.

[Walter John]

Who's responsible for the name "cuesta linda" ? Never heard of it here.

[MattyB]

The Jeff B. that Dean mentioned. I think it's the name of his garden here in San Diego.

[Dypsisdean]

Wal,

There's a pictorial essay of the garden and some pics of the palm itself on Palmpedia.

http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/index.php/CU...A%2C_CALIFORNIA

[BS Man about Palms]

Dean,

This plant was collected in the wild or at a resort in Madagascar (don't remember which) in 2005. Peter Balasky sold me one and when I got home basically it was a dead ringer for Jeff's plant. Tri (he is the brains - I am the brawn) confirmed it too as he saw both. The label I have is "Dypsis sp? Tampo". Peter only sold me one but he was stoked on this plant. So much so I did not have the heart to tell him I think this plant is already in cultivation as "cuesta linda". So I think if people really wanted to know more about Jeff's plant, they can now.......

Hold on there, Len! I have to disagree, at least if we are talking the same palm! The Palm from Pete that he also calls "Dypsis scraggly" throws RED leaves. I have yet to see a "Cuesta Linda" do that.

Here is my "scraggly" shortly after arrival.

[Walter John]

So no-one minds if I go ahead and start naming my unknown ravenea, ah, Ravenea sp.'Jackson's Jungle' ?

[gsn]

So no-one minds if I go ahead and start naming my unknown ravenea, ah, Ravenea sp.'Jackson's Jungle' ?

Wal,

I agree common names rear there ugly head yet again,now we even have MADE-UP common names!

Certainly not, go ahead and call it Ravenea sp.'Jackson's Jungle' ? If we get EVERYONE doing this ,maybe, just maybe, we can have as many Ravenea mysteries as Dypsis mysteries! Wait that isn't possible!

Edited July 11, 2008 by gsn

[LJG]

Bill, you are way off on this one pal. Am I an idiot? Don't answer! But I know one thing... I am not talking about ""Dypsis scraggly" " And you just wasted a whole post. Muhhahhaaaahhhaa.........

Scott, how do common names come about? Don't they all get "Made-Up"? Kind of like the chicken and the egg.

[BS Man about Palms]

Bill, you are way off on this one pal. Am I an idiot? Don't answer! But I know one thing... I am not talking about ""Dypsis scraggly" " And you just wasted a whole post. Muhhahhaaaahhhaa.........

Scott, how do common names come about? Don't they all get "Made-Up"? Kind of like the chicken and the egg.

I think Pete has the "Tampo" name on the one I have too....

[gsn]

Scott, how do common names come about? Don't they all get "Made-Up"? Kind of like the chicken and the egg.

Len,

Yes that is how common names come about, they get made -up!

And I really don't see a problem with that if one is sure, that one knows the EXACT species they are naming,but they don't ,it looks a little different,or the seed was collected without an positive ID, so on goes a new name. The problem that lies in naming these Dypsis' is that no one really knows what they are. Which in turn only adds to the confusion regarding an ID.

That is part of the reason that so many Dypsis mysteries occur,giving different names to seed when one is not sure exactly what the mother palm was.. Naming them something ,when one really has no idea if is a variation of another known Dypsis. There are many varitions of palm species ,take a look at the ordinary queen palm,some look entirely different even as adults,little lone as juveniles,and it isn't just cultural. It seems to me this just adds to the mystery, but what do I know?

You guys wouldn't know what to do without a good Dypsis mystery anyway,solve away!

just my 2 cents,and probably worth less.

[MattyB]

If it's different from anything else then what else are you supposed to call it other than make up a name until someone describes it. By the way, I've got some 5 gallon Dypsis sp. 'hairy booty' for sale if anyone's interested.

[Matt in SD]

Gary,

I'm totally lost in your logic. If we don't know for sure what a palm is, how do you propose that anyone can have any sort of discussion about it without calling it something?

Recently, it seems that mystery seed coming in is being given locality names, which I think is a good change. People who have watched the seed lists might remember a few years ago, the big batch of mystery dypsis had names like 'green boresy' and 'big fishtail'...I think these sorts of names are probably more likely to lead to confusion than just giving a name based on the nearest town, or the name of the region where it is from.

I think another issue you're maybe not considering is that a large fraction of the Dypsis mysteries seed came in with valid species names, and only later were determined to not actually be the species they were originally called. And in many of these cases, it is pretty clear that there is a similarity between what something really is and what the seed was called ('orange crush' came in as Dypsis tsaravoasira, with which it shares several characteristics, 'bejofa' came in as Dypsis bejofo and it also is pretty darn similar to the true species when mature). There are some very clear cases where the juveniles of several Dypsis species are readily distinguishable, but the mature plants are much more difficult to distinguish. There are also Dypsis species where two different plants look basically the same until they mature, and then all of a sudden diverge and look very different. Because of this sort of complexity, I think that even a very well intentioned and knowledgeable seed collector would have an extremely hard time naming all the species correctly or identifying which are undescribed.

BUT, it is clear to me that the most fundamental cause of all the Dypsis confusion, is that Dypsis is a very complex genus, and there seem to be several cases of "species complexes" where there is a gradation of forms that exist and it is not at all clear where the actual species boundaries are. In my opinion, the Dypsis genus is an example where the classical method of putting each organism into a "box" defined as a species just does not apply. If this is the case, it seems to me that giving a name that states the species complex (e.g. baronii/onilahensis) and the location of the collected seed would be probably the most useful method of categorizing the plants. On Madagascar, I think that Ravenea and Dypsis both fit into this "species complex" model, where delineating actual species is very difficult due to intermediate forms and variability. I don't know as much about others, but I would guess that Calyptrocalyx, Licuala, and Pinanga (especially the PNG species) may have some similar issues but these are much more strictly tropical growers and probably just don't generate as much worldwide discussion (plus you have to admit...Madagascar is just cool!).

Anyways, what I'm trying to say in a very longwinded way is that the mystery and confusion with Dypsis is, in my opinion, rooted in some really fundamental and intriguing real complexities of the genus. The naming confusions are a result of this, not the other way around (at least for the most part).

Matt

[gsn]

Matt,

I assume I am the GARY you are referring to,even though I am Scott?

Let me try to make my logic a little clearer,probably won't succed but I will try.

First let me say I agree with most everything you said. I agree that the Dypsis genus is very complex,and you guys know way more about it than me.

But here is the problem I see in this short thread, this palm that everyone thinks is the same, has been called 3 different names Cuesta Linda, Tampo,Scraggly.How can that not be anything but confusing?

Rather than a name if it is to be disscused, I would think Dypsis sp 101,102,or any numerical designation would make more sense.

As far as putting this genus(Dypsis) and all of it's different species into a box,I couldn't agree more.But you guys are the ones trying to BOX them. I also agree that there are clear cut examples of palms in the genus that can be boxed,ie:decaryi,lancelota,lutescens,ect,these are distinct palms ,no mystery.

Any little variation and you want it to be a different species,rather just a variation of an existing species. I guess that was my point,there is varation in all species,the queen palm as an example. One has very wide plumose leaflets,another has very narrow leaflets,some with upright crowns,some drooping.They can be very different looking as both juveniles,and adults. And this is in the common less complex syrgus genus,unlike the complex Dypsis genus. But the palm world isn't going around naming all the queen variations different names, if it is a little different.

I guess it's fun to try and solve these mysteries,as it seems a very popular topic here on palm talk. I just think as you said trying to put each Dypsis palm into a BOX as you stated ,is vitually impossible,with variation that exists in palms, at any stage ,juvenile,or adult. Even for a botanist, littlelone hobby growers, or seed, palm collectors.You are going to have overlapping in certain complexes.

From what I gleaned from this thread ,would I be out to lunch if this palm seems to be in the Baroni complex,rather than something that should be given a NEW name?

Anyway carry on the disscussion, as I probably have no idea what I am talking about!

Edited July 11, 2008 by gsn

[LJG]

Gary

People like to attach names to things. It is human nature. Imagine the Internet with no common naming system. We would not go to Yahoo.com, but rather 68.180.206.184. In this case you see three names. "Scraggly" was put in there by error by that trouble maker Bill Sanford. It is not correct. "Tampo" is what the man who collected it has on his tags. "Cuesta Linda" was a name given to a palm that no one has seen anywhere else before. The reason I mentioned the plant Peter has is so maybe we can get rid of some of the confusion and actually know where the plant is from now and give it a name more fitting.

[Matt in SD]

Sorry Scott...not sure why I said Gary (I thought I remembered your real name so didn't look).

I agree with most of what you said. But I definitely don't see how giving numbers as names would clear anything up. We would then be arguing that Dypsis species 101 and Dypsis species 136 were maybe the same thing. Seems like the same story with a different name.

I do agree that you could say that Dypsis 'cuesta linda' is a baronii/onilahensis complex palm. Whether it's a distinct species in the botanical sense remains to be determined I think. But it is at very least a recognizable variant, so I think it's worth giving some sort of common name so at least some people know what we're talking about. And yes people have given many names to the different varieties of queen palms, and I don't think this is a problem either. It gives people who like to discuss these sorts of subtleties a way to discuss without having to say "you know that one variety with the fat, droopy leaflets, and upright fronds...not the one with the fat stiff leaflets and droopy fronds". Every branch of science, every trade, and every local language dialect does this sort of thing and if you are an 'outsider' it sort of sucks because you might have no idea what people are talking about, but otherwise discussions between people 'in the know' would be totally cumbersome.

Back to the 'cuesta linda' specifics. As far as I know this palm is from seed labeled as Dypsis oreophila. I would say that this is the only real 'mistake' in the chain as the palm doesn't look much like the description or photos of Dypsis oreophila. Jeff Brusseau, whose garden is called "cuesta linda" I guess has the most publicized and probably first of these plants to set seed and because many experts have toured his garden and said it was different, it started being called 'cuesta linda' (although Jeff usually labels the seedlings he grows as Dypsis sp.). Len made the observation that he acquired a very similar palm that was collected in habitat and knew where it was collected. The collector hadn't been to Jeff Brusseau's garden so did not know that this palm may already be in cultivation. Seems to me like we're attempting to clear things up more than confuse things further. It would be good to know where this palm actually came from in Madagascar.

I do wonder how certain Len can be about if these are the same palm. Photos Len? I don't see 'cuesta linda' looking significantly different than baronii when small so I just don't know how you can tell for sure.

As usual these always turn into interesting discussions.

Matt

[LJG]

Matt, when you come by I will show you. Dead ringer. Maybe your eagle eye will something me and Tri's did not?

[paulgila]

just as with most things len says i find that "potentially offensive!"

[gsn]

Matt,

As far as numbers being the same, I can give you one example where numerials would be better than names.Even though as Len says we humans like to give things names.

It would be the infamous Dypsis lutescens,the most common of all Dypsis. That palm, when first introduced was called ARECA palm. The name has STUCK,if you ask 10 people here in Florida ,9 out of 10 will call it ARECA palm,rather Dypsis lutescens. It is hard to disremember(okay not a word), forget a name once it gets in ones mind. If the suspect Dypsis' were disscussed as Dypsis sp 101, and so forth,then given a proper name after it was determined what they really were then this problem wouldn't exist. Okay I know I am knitpicking, but it does make sense.

It does seem as though your making progress on this Dypsis, (a variation of Baroni) at least until someone else throws in there thoughts,almost a first!

GARY, formely a Dypsis neophyte named Scott

Edited July 11, 2008 by gsn

[Walter John]

Matt,

As far as numbers being the same, I can give you one example where numerials would be better than names.Even though as Len says we humans like to give things names.

It would be the infamous Dypsis lutescens,the most common of all Dypsis. That palm, when first introduced was called ARECA palm. The name has STUCK,if you ask 10 people here in Florida ,9 out of 10 will call it ARECA palm,rather Dypsis lutescens. It is hard to disremember(okay not a word), forget a name once it gets in ones mind. If the suspect Dypsis' were disscussed as Dypsis sp 101, and so forth,then given a proper name after it was determined what they really were then this problem wouldn't exist. Okay I know I am knitpicking, but it does make sense.

It does seem as though your making progress on this Dypsis, (a variation of Baroni) at least until someone else throws in there thoughts,almost a first!

GARY, formely a Dypsis neophyte named Scott

Your example here is Florida ONLY, the rest of the world reads these posts, and when you say things like "That palm, when first introduced was called ARECA palm." will confuse and trap the young players we have coming through the palm education system.

Just to continue and add though, if you did ask 10 people here in Queensland, 10 out of 10 will call it a "Golden Cane" palm. Back to the palm in question, if it is genuinely an unknown species, which it appears to be, and it seems to be very much like baronii with a slight difference, then how about this naming convention which I believe is acceptable in the scientific community:

Dypsis baronii var "Cuesta Linda" or Dypsis baronii sp."Cuesta Linda"

over and ouch..........

[BS Man about Palms]

Gary

In this case you see three names. "Scraggly" was put in there by error by that trouble maker Bill Sanford. It is not correct. "Tampo" is what the man who collected it has on his tags. "Cuesta Linda" was a name given to a palm that no one has seen anywhere else before. The reason I mentioned the plant Peter has is so maybe we can get rid of some of the confusion and actually know where the plant is from now and give it a name more fitting.

Sorry, I heard the name mentioned by Mike Harris and then Peter when were all at dinner, I'm sorry, I must have missed you at the other end of the table.

I stand by my first assertion, two different palms. I'ma gonna go maka da picture now!

[BS Man about Palms]

OK- I admit my "Cuesta Linda" is small, just like most of my palms around here, it needs better care. But it looks like a miniature of most I've seen. I have YET to see a "Cuesta Linda" with a "Red LEAF", please anyone with one or has seen one, speak up!

First, the same leaf that was red in the earlier "Tampolo/scraggly" picture.

[BS Man about Palms]

Next the "Cuesta Linda" and then the two together.

[BS Man about Palms]

Can I get a Witness?

[LJG]

Bill stop the insanity! Your are confusing things. I have two of those same palms also. I KNOW they are not the same. Any idiot can tell that. I am telling you I was sold a plant from Peter you did not get your little grubby hands on. It is that plant I am referring too. Tell you what, get up early, come to my house tomorrow. I will show you then we can leave from my house for Leon's.

[BS Man about Palms]

Maybe its the "Tampo" versus "Tampolo" that confused me. As they say, pictures help. See ya later.

[BS Man about Palms]

OK- after a trip to Len's yesterday, I took these pics to UNRAVEL A DYPSIS MYSTERY! (at least a little bit) Maybe Bill Beattie can help confirm here since Pete is never on this site.

First, what has been sold around here as "Cuesta Linda". Next is a small palm sold to Len by Pete as "Tampolo" (on the tag, I'm assuming a location rather than a description-Bill?)

[BS Man about Palms]

Next, side by side comparisons of the palms. (Made one picture large for zooming) Looks like the same palm to me!!!

[BS Man about Palms]

And lastly, my confusion point. Evidently Pete chose the "area" description for two different type palms, with the names being "Tampolo" and "Tampolo tall".

I and Len have the "Tampolo tall" (also known as Dypsis scraggly) and has the red leaf and is quite different. Heres Lens....

[BS Man about Palms]

DYPSIS MYSTERY SOLVED!!!, well not Nicks original question, but a sub-mystery.

[ellidro]

DYPSIS MYSTERY SOLVED!!!, well not Nicks original question, but a sub-mystery.

I can't let you off that easy!! All you solved was the confusion that you and Len created amongst yourselves.

I'll throw another monkey wrench into the equation. So it sounds like Cuesta Linda suckering in cultivation is not out of the question which leads me to my next question. I bought a few palms under the Ambositrae name which clearly they are not but they did look very similar to Cuesta Linda when they were smaller. Here's a pic of the palm. The red color is beginning to fade due to it being older and in the sun.

[BS Man about Palms]

Hey! part of the solving was it appears "cuesta linda" has been found in habitat.

[gsn]

DYPSIS MYSTERY SOLVED!!!, well not Nicks original question, but a sub-mystery.

I can't let you off that easy!! All you solved was the confusion that you and Len created amongst yourselves.

Now that is FUNNY!

One mystery leads to another,and another, when and where will it end?

Good luck Dypsis sleuths.

[ellidro]

Hey! part of the solving was it appears "cuesta linda" has been found in habitat.

So what your saying is pointing out that a tree was found in habitat is a mystery solved ! I'm just ribbing you cause I can.

[LJG]

1) Why was Bill in my greenhouse unaccompanied? I was gone all day.

2) I think Bill was only posting his excitement that this plant which is different and no one else has seen (in terms of knowing where its origins are) or knows anything about around here, at least can now find out from the source about it. Like where it is from, etc.... Obviously it is a Baronii. One of hundreds of different variations (according to Mardy). But now what Jeff Marcus, Phil, etc sale as "Cuesta Linda" can maybe get a name like Wal suggested. Because it really is a cool variation of Baronii.

[ellidro]

1) Why was Bill in my greenhouse unaccompanied? I was gone all day.

2) I think Bill was only posting his excitement that this plant which is different and no one else has seen (in terms of knowing where its origins are) or knows anything about around here, at least can now find out from the source about it. Like where it is from, etc.... Obviously it is a Baronii. One of hundreds of different variations (according to Mardy). But now what Jeff Marcus, Phil, etc sale as "Cuesta Linda" can maybe get a name like Wal suggested. Because it really is a cool variation of Baronii.

Len don't go bringing logic into this! Bill and I were all set up for a battle of witts and you ruined it!

[BS Man about Palms]

1) Why was Bill in my greenhouse unaccompanied? I was gone all day.

2) I think Bill was only posting his excitement that this plant which is different and no one else has seen (in terms of knowing where its origins are) or knows anything about around here, at least can now find out from the source about it. Like where it is from, etc.... Obviously it is a Baronii. One of hundreds of different variations (according to Mardy). But now what Jeff Marcus, Phil, etc sale as "Cuesta Linda" can maybe get a name like Wal suggested. Because it really is a cool variation of Baronii.

Len don't go bringing logic into this! Bill and I were all set up for a battle of witts and you ruined it!

Now we'll have to go to battle "half-witted".