Attalea dubia

[buffy]

This question is probably directed towards Alberto, but some of you other guys might know. Where exactly can you find the high altitude groupings of Attalea dubia? Eventually, I'll find a good reason to visit, and you better believe I'll be doing some botanizing. So, if I could know exactly where to find the coldest of the cold Attaleas, that would be good to know. I wish someone down there would make the trek up into the highlands to try to find the highest of the high mountain Attalea dubia. I bet there would be a line of people willing to pony up some cash for those. I'm in the front of that line, may I add.

I just fell in love with Attaleas when I was in the mountains of Belize. Attalea cohune just captivated my attention. I couldn't learn enough about them. Riding horses through the woods, I'd see the various stages of development of the species. It was remarkable. If there's a chance for me to grow them here in 8A/8B, Attalea dubia is my hero.

[Alberto]

I remember that I posted a pic of a A. dubia growing in Araucaria forest that I photographed some years ago when I was traveling from Curitiba to São Paulo state,near the border. I cannot find this pic now. I know from a botanic book that mentions also frost in habitat of this Attaleas.

[buffy]

So looking at my little online map, it appears that the Serro do Mar mountain range stretches from the state of Rio de Janeiro to Sau Paulo to Parana to Santa Catarina to Rio Grande do Sul. The tallest peak is Pico das Salinas, located in Parque Estadual dos Três Picos in the state of Rio de Janeiro in a municipality of Nova Friburgo, with a height of 2,316 m. South of Curitiba in Santa Catarina state there appears to be a peak of 1,822 m (5,978 ft). I'm curious about that because its further south. Although Alberto doesn't mention Attalea dubia in this region. It looks pretty cold in this picture.

There's an unofficial all time record low in Curitiba of -10.4C or 13F. Curitiba sits on a plateau at 932 metres (3,060 ft) above sea level. If the mountains between Curitiba and Sau Paulo reach up beyond that, I don't see why you couldn't have some pretty severe record lows. I wish we had more data.

Edited December 21, 2008 by buffy

[buffy]

I'm a bit surprised this hasn't received any additional comments. I'm sure it's due to a lack of general information about this species. Looking at my brand new GPII book, it does appear that Attalea is represented further south to include the suspected habitat between Curitiba and Porto Alegre. Are there no members from that area represented on our forum? The mountains there are up to 3,000 feet higher (~1,000 meters) than the plateau where Curitiba is located.

[FRITO]

Hi Buffy,

I am also interested in a high altitude seed from Attalea that may have some extra hardiness. I hope we can find out some more information.

[amazondk]

Buffy,

That is a nice image of Brazil you posted. I always like to look at pictures of Brazil and how much green there is around where I live. In fact the highest point in southern Brazil is the Pico da Bandeira on the state lines of Minas Gerais and Espirito Santo at 2.891,98 meters. This mountain is right next to the Serra do Mar which starts in the southern part of the Espirito Santo state. The highest mountain in Brazil is here in Amazonas state where I live. That is the Pico da Neblina at 2993,78 meters. Of course the fact that this mountain is much closer to the equator makes a diference. Since Attaleas are such a prominent and widespread palm around here there may be some interesting species in the transitional forest from the low land Amazonian forest to the highlands. I have spent plenty of time in the mountains of Sao Paulo, Rio, and Minas Gerais and it can get pretty cold. As to your question of groupings of cold tolerant Attaleas Alberto surely has more of an idea than I do.

dk

[buffy]

It looks like Caxias do Sol (760 meters or ~2,000 feet) in Rio Grande do Sol also has a record low of -12C (10.4F). If Attaleas are in these mountains between Curitiba and Porto Alegre, I don't see why they wouldn't be cold tolerant to some impressive lows. Nigel in Paraiso, Santa Catarina and Alberto in Parana state are the closest members I'm aware live there. Regardless, treking into those mountains is a long haul based on the road maps and satelite views.

[Alberto]

Second Harri Lorenzi´s palm book,Attalea dubia grows at the ´´atlantic side´´ of the Serra do Mar mountains. A.dubia is very common at the atlantic plane and the hills toward the higher Serra do Mar. Growing in araucaria forest i saw them only once,and it was on the way from Curitiba to the city of Registro in São Paulo, high in mountains. It was at vacation trip with family so I couldn´t stop to seek for seeds....

[amazondk]

Alberto,

Just curious but would you find these palms in the Mantiqueira mountains of São Paulo? I used to explore those mountains a lot when I was in living in SP, but I was looking for bromeliads not palms and never paid attention to them.

dk

[Alberto]

Alberto,

Just curious but would you find these palms in the Mantiqueira mountains of São Paulo? I used to explore those mountains a lot when I was in living in SP, but I was looking for bromeliads not palms and never paid attention to them.

dk

I was in the Itatiaia park a few years ago and at higher altitudes (alpine vegetation) i only saw few dwarfish palms, probably Syagrus sp.

[buffy]

So the concensus is that there are probably extremely cold hardy A. dubia, but until someone takes the time to collect some seed, the world will simply have to wait. Here's a good lesson in the subject of patience designed specifically for me. Merry Christmas all you wonderful, crazy palm people.

[kelen]

I saw some Attaleas dubia and Araucaria angustifolia growing together, my Attaleas dubia seedlings are growing very well here, they are more cold hadiness than many others species (like Dypsis decaryi, D. lutescens Roystoneas for exemple).

[buffy]

Kelen, Nigel and Alberto: It seems that the three of you are extremely blessed. Basically, any palm that grows in the mountains near you would make the Zone 8 inhabitants of the world giddy with excitement. You have Syagrus "Silver Queen" romanzoffiana, Attalea dubia, Butia of all kinds, and who knows what else. Would any of you recommend a way for us gringos to obtain some of these cold hardy, mountain specimens.

As an alternative, consider this:

Find a few weekends to botanize seeds of all these uniquely hardy palms in the mountains (and anything else truely unique). Clean and prepare a mixer package of 10 seeds of each kind. Package them as a set of seeds. Sale the set for $100. Have individuals wire the money into your bank account. This will cover shipping, unforeseen problems requiring you to send another package, possible phytosanitary work, etc. If you have 10-20 people take you up on it, that's totally worth it. I'd be all over it. Of course, this is just an idea. I'm not suggesting I know your financial situation or your views about profiting from the sale of seeds. I'm just providing an unsolicited idea that would selfishly benefit me. Please forgive me if this offends.

[Alberto]

Here is my photo of the A.dubia in araucaria forest:

http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1154317243047705136gjfibX

It´s incredible but I think we photographed the same palm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited January 5, 2009 by Alberto

[Alberto]

My photo is dated 19 june 2004. Where and when you got yours??? Não é muita coincidência?

Only that bloody Pinus sp have grown somewhat....

BTW Buffy ,I think that is a good idea. I am thinking about a long time but never found time.

Some years ago I payed a guy to clean a bunch of A.dubia seeds and offered them to swap etc. There was only interest of few people. I know toto have some A.dubias growing now at his place.... How are they now Toto?

Edited January 5, 2009 by Alberto

[merrill]

Hi, Kelen and Alberto:

Since you both have published photos herein of the same individual A. dubia, the statistics on one of you knowing the age are much improved. Many of us would be most grateful if you give us some estimate. I've always been intensively interested in growth rates of A. dubia.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[kelen]

I take this picture on july 29 in 2007. The picture with Pinus was a cold place, I don't remember where is this, I think this was the southern Attalea dubia that I saw in high place.

[buffy]

BTW Buffy ,I think that is a good idea. I am thinking about a long time but never found time. Some years ago I payed a guy to clean a bunch of A.dubia seeds and offered them to swap etc. There was only interest of few people. I know toto have some A.dubias growing now at his place.... How are they now Toto?

I pray that eventually time permits one of you to do a little botanizing for the crazy gringos like me and others throughout the world. By the way, how safe and easy is it for an English-only speaker to explore Santa Catarina without getting himself into trouble. What type of laws are there about seed collecting and such? I've heard horror stories about safety in the big cities like Sau Paulo, but I'm totally ignorant of some of the more average metropolitan areas down there. Are there any spectacular resorts nearby that I could visit as an excuse to botanize in the mountains?

[Alberto]

You don´t have to go to go to some neighborhoods of big cities like São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro. I´ve never been in such places! When I see some american films,I think,that´s not a save place to visit ... For the rest it´s safe and lots of beautifull resorts etc to stay!

[merrill]

Just a comment from an admiring friendly foreigner:

We left Sao Paolo after a couple of us were mugged, and traveled extensively to the North, no cities more than about a million, walked their streets late at night [one of us was a lady!] and never again had a problem; it was safer than MUCH of the U.S.. Believe it or not, the local bureaucracy insisted we sleep in this dangerous area, yet there were ample empty hotel rooms in the safety of the meeting area. I would really enjoy seeing much more of Brazil; particularly Santa Catarina and Rio Grande Do Sul..

merrill

Edited January 6, 2009 by merrill

[edbrown_III]

I have been all through Brasil over the past 20 years --- never a lick of trouble ---nice folks ---

Foz do Iguazcu is a bit surreal--- I would nt try to buy drugs or pick up hookers in a foreign country this is what gets you robbed or mugged-- of course this is what gets you robbed or mugged int the US also!

Anybody up for a road trip to Minas Gerais and Bahia ?

Best rgards,

Ed

[buffy]

Well, recently Tobias added Attalea dubia to his list of seeds available on Rarepalmseeds.com. I purchased 10 seeds. They're a little smaller than A. cohune, but still pretty impressive. I have them in two baggies on the heat mat at around 88 F. I know success rates are pretty low on this one, but I'd love to hear a little feedback.

[Austinpalm]

I purchased A. dubia seeds from RPS last fall. 3 have since germinated. Unfortunately, squirrels made lunch of 2 of the seedlings. I have the 3rd under lock and key now.

[buffy]

My Attalea dubia seeds have surprised me. The first baggie I checked tonight had 4 out of 5 germinated seeds. I was under the impression these were difficult. Anyway, I've moved them to a deep pot to stretch their legs through the summer. I'll then see about big individual pots. We're gonna find out in about three years how these do in Northeast Texas.

[FRITO]

still looking for high altitude /cold hardy Attalea dubia.

will pay $ for seed

[Nigel]

My name mentioned...... and I seem to have totally missed this thread.

There are Attaleas near me , some in the mountains near here, but only on the mountains facing the sea and certainly not colder than 0C.

The Attalea population described by Alberto and Kelen sounds very exciting but are they exposed to deeper freezes or similar brief and light frosts to the ones here ? Attaleas from the higher plateau would be better.

Buffy, re travelling here, I feel very safe here, and never worry about security. There is guns,shootings and crime but I never see it. It mostly tends to be drug related. This part of Brazil is really paradise, a westerner travelling here will rapidly become intoxicated and fall in love with this place.

You or any other person wanting to visit here would be very welcome and I would be happy to help make arrangements with local hotels etc.

The next IPS meet is in Rio, if anybody wants to stop off in this area before returning it would be a great extension.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Nigel

[buffy]

Nigel: Thank you so much for the warm invitation. I'm currently negotiating with my wife about a possible IPS trip. I will definitely look into a side trip to see you if I convince my wife to travel.

I finally received some seed from Tobias in the spring. Currently, my A. dubia"s" are pushing roots down in a big pot. Two of the seeds are actually getting pushed into the air by the roots. I was actually surprised at how easy they were to germinate. I don't know the providence of the seeds, but it will certainly be fun to see how they do. Once I get them producing pinnate leaves, I'll put one in the ground in a dry winter location with lots of mulch above for protection.

[buffy]

still looking for high altitude /cold hardy Attalea dubia. will pay $ for seed

Frito: Have you tried Tobias' seed. I doubt it's cold providence, but providence won't make a cataclysmic difference in cold hardiness. Some? Sure. But nothing more than a few degrees.

[LJG]

Hey Puffy,

I will get you a picture of one of the nicest and largest Attalea dubia you will find anywhere but maybe FL in the States. It has seen major cold (mid 20s in 2007) and did not even get touched from it. The leaves are 12 feet tall and dark green coming out of the ground. I will not be out to the guys house for two weeks however. He is in SoCal.

[buffy]

Just looked at my A. dubia community pot. Looks like my first leaf is emerging. Cool.

[buffy]

I placed 10 seeds in baggies. 9 germinated. 3 got picked off by squirrels. 6 are strap-leaf seedlings. I just potted up all six into tall 3 gallons. It was real cool seeing the palm base. It looks like any other cocoid, except the base is underground 3-4 inches. Very cool. All 6 pots have slightly different soil mixes. I want to see what they prefer. The first strap leaf is bigger than I'm used to seeing. Again, once this goes pinnate, the following April 15th, I'm putting one of these in the ground under a live oak to see how it responds. Has anyone here killed one of these with frost? If it's remotely frost tolerant, it could be happy for years before the emergent meristem faces a freeze.

[buffy]

Here's a picture of one of the strap-leafers:

[kelen]

To celebrate the spring, I planted today my first Attalea dubia in the field.

[Al in Kona]

Good luck with that Attalea dubia that you just planted, Kelen. This seems to be a very rare palm in cultivation so best to you. Keep us informed how it is growing, OK?

[kelen]

Good luck with that Attalea dubia that you just planted, Kelen. This seems to be a very rare palm in cultivation so best to you. Keep us informed how it is growing, OK?

Thank you!

Now, the last day of summer it looks like this,

how many time I need to wait to see mine like that wonderful full grown Attalea dubia?

Edited April 4, 2010 by kelen

[richnorm]

Good luck with that Attalea dubia that you just planted, Kelen. This seems to be a very rare palm in cultivation so best to you. Keep us informed how it is growing, OK?

Thank you!

Now, the last day of summer it looks like this,

how many time I need to wait to see mine like that wonderful full grown Attalea dubia?

Seems to be growing faster than mine. I get one or two leaves a year!

cheers

Richard

[kelen]

I'm crazy by Attalea dubia, I travel by all its habitat during the time that I stay in Plantarum. I help Lorenzi to do all the maps to the book (Brazilian flora-palms); and I did Attalea, Trithrinax and Desmoncus keys.

This map is the Attalea dubia habitat. The higher place stay in Rio de Janeiro.

However I saw a huge Attalea dubia cultivated in Ponta Grossa - Parana.

Edited June 29, 2010 by kelen

[Alberto]

I'm crazy by Attalea dubia, I travel by all its habitat during the time that I stay in Plantarum. I help Lorenzi to do all the maps to the book (Brazilian flora-palms); and I did Attalea, Trithrinax and Desmoncus keys.

This map is the Attalea dubia habitat. The higher place stay in Rio de Janeiro.

However I saw a huge Attalea dubia cultivated in Ponta Grossa - Parana.

Hi Kelen,

Years ago ,I posted photos from 2 of the 3 A.dubias that I know in Ponta Grossa (that is located 19 kilometers from my place) I have 2 plants from both of the trees. Were you saw it? One is growing near a house on the way from Ponta Grossa - Foz do Iguaçú,and the other two in the city near the Centro. I sent some to Toto in Croatia (who germinated 3 out of 10 seeds if I remember well),to Canelgat in Spain . I cleaned a bunch of seeds (a hell of work ) offered the seeds here but at the time there wasn´t much interest in swapping,and most of the seeds lost there viability, until I finally put them all below a tree,but no one germinated after that. I think Attaleas must be FRESH!

On ´´Kelen´s map´´:Ponta Grossa is located +-100 km West from Curitiba near the first big river (Tibagi river)

[Kailua_Krish]

Any idea of approximate cold tolerance of this species? I looked around and couldnt find much about it. Frost tolerance info would be appreciated also!

-Krishna

[Chris]

There are two in Fallbrook (inland San Diego Co., CA) that were undamaged by about 26F. They are in full exposure, on slopes. I'd love to know how much colder they can tolerate.