New Possible reason for leaning crown in Howea's?

[BS Man about Palms]

Its too dark for a picture now, but I should have taken a picture "before". BUT, I noticed something on my only Howea f.

Actually heres a poor "before pic I DID take today... Look first.

[BS Man about Palms]

All that pic really "shows" is the "size" of the emerging spear, quite bigger than normal actually. I had noticed it was big for more than a week now and had been waiting for it to open, but I thought it looked like it might be leaning too. Today I looked closer and was suprised to notice it appeared I had THREE spears all "stuck" together. It seemed to be starting slightly to lean towards the direction of the next frond to open. I was able to twist and pop a bit and seperate the next spear. I found the teeniest bit of the pink rot about 14" up from the growing point and thats where there were some necrotic areas that were "fused" together.

I wonder if its an event such as this that happens that starts the lean as the next frond can't seperate for a while and has extended as far as it can, while the other fronds continue to grow, now being pulled the direction of the "shorter" yet to open frond.

Not sure if that made sense or not, but maybe I'll take some pictures tomorrow to explain better.

The above seems to make as much sense as any as to the cause of the "leaning crown" problem on Howeas.

Comments?

[joe_OC]

So are you saying that Kentias with leaning crowns have a chronic case of emerging spears sticking to each other? From my observation, isn't that how nature intended it? As the "older" emergent spear gets to a certain size, it breaks off from the "newer" spear to open up a new frond. Each frond that opens up alternates in direction for the axial base.

Or, are you saying that from that one time event, the growth direction of the palm has been permanently altered to one direction and the next frond is not able to counter the effect?

[Kostas]

Thats a great observation Bill and one that makes much more sense than any other! I think that it should at least be checked as 1st possibility with any kentia with a leaning crown problem as its something easy to spot and to solve,just seperate the spears and you are good again! Also,it explains well why after the kentia is over this problem,it doesnt leave any marks on the trunk

But what were the conditiones that caused your kentia these necrotic places that made spears stick together?

Joe,

BS Man says that emerging spears were stuck together due to necrotic tissues...When something similar happens to at the formation of a single spear,it may not be able to open at this place so you can see that getting stuck from a necrotic area is logical if this problem was at the formation of the spear(s).I recently got some Howea and i saw that there are spears at different stages of development so 3 spears sticking together is feasible too...And if that happens,the growth of the newer spears will push out but will be restricted when the oldest spear gets to its final height.As they continue to push,the older spear will lean to the only side it can,the side it would open normally and the developing spear will bend so as to continue growing.To understand that better,you must know that the new spears would be stuck at about halfway up the oldest spear,they wont be the same height as it...From then on,the lean would continue until the stuck spears seperate.This should naturally take place at some point,especially after a heavy rain and strong winds but speperating by hand would be an immediate and recomended solution to it.This is not to say that neccessarily all leaning crown problems stem from that but this makes more sense that other guesses at least for having been prooved by Bill Its also something easy to cure once seen if its always that but at least can be checked in no time compared to other things

Bill,i hope you Howea grows out of it soon and doesnt show any other problems

[BS Man about Palms]

Yes Joe, Kostas has it.

Two things to add:

I'm not exactly sure what event "caused the necrotic part" (as close as I can tell, it was near the end of our "winter heat wave" with many days over 75F so I finally watered well, only to be followed soon after by a 35F event two nights in a row.) Maybe that was the cause. Lots of water intake by the cold snap.

Secondly most of the "leaners" I've seen are bigger/older palms and therefore the spears are well overhead. This happened to be just about eye level. (growth point lower, spears "clump" was higher. It may have happened to some of these palms when they were tall enough to not easily notice.

[BS Man about Palms]

I also noticed the first pic shows the angle/lean starting relative to the base of the palm. If you enlarge the pic you can see it relatively easy. If needed I can "draw a line" later.

[gsn]

Bill,

I think I understand what you are saying? I know nothing about growing Howeas,so can't really comment on them specifically,but other palms also show this syndrome. My opinion is you are looking in the wrong place for an answer.

I don't think the spears fusing together is what is causing the leaning.Whatever made the necrotic areas fuse together is causing the problem. I don't see how just seprating the emerging spears will solve the REAL issue, which is whatever made the fronds fuse together in the first place, ie: the necrosis and it's cause!

But I could be WRONG?

Edited February 15, 2009 by gsn

[BS Man about Palms]

Scott, I understand you are not familiar with this problem as there are not as many Howeas in Florida, but even the IPS had a blurb a year or so ago asking for input as to the causes of this as it can happen on way too high a percentage of Howeas as opposed to other palms.

It has been discussed as to whether it is a nutrient deficiency, fungus, or what ever. There have been several "solutions/attempts" at getting them straight again and going well. But, this was an observation on my part as it is a "normal" event/trauma (fungus, cold, etc.) that seems to start the physical leaning, and it appears that relative to the event and subsequent conditions afterwards is to when it "pops" back to growing normal, but now at an angle.

Maybe its not clear, but most often when spotted the palms look completely normal except that the top has started to grow at anywhere from a 15-90 degree angle.

[Kostas]

Hi Scott

The time this necrotic area is above the growing point and green healthy tissue is produced under it,i dont think there is anything more to worry about,the palm outgrew the dangerous situation so all good about it But its surely good to know what caused the necrotic area so as to not put the palm in danger again

[gsn]

Bill,

As I stated I know nothing about growing Howeas.

But that is not the only palm that exhibits this condition,I have seen it on common queen palms,as well as other species, here in Florida.

That was why I commented on the subject, even though I know nothing about Howeas!

I beleive as I stated that whatever caused the necrosis is the problem, whether it be transient or chronic? As in your example if it grows out of it with only the lean,it would be a transient problem,whether it was cultural, a deficency, diease, or some other problem. If it doesn't grow out of it then obviously it was chronic!

Carry on the disscussion Howea growers.

Edited February 15, 2009 by gsn

[BS Man about Palms]

I decided to try to document it a bit with pictures, sadly there appears to be more lean than I thought as you'll see.

First picture you'll see here was taken just now at roughly the same location as the pic taken at the top of the page. Compare the "size" of the spear and the direction its pointing.

[BS Man about Palms]

Here are some closer shots where you can see the area affected that seemed to start the process.

[BS Man about Palms]

Here are some more shots. It has started leaning a little. The popular solution is to cut the fronds off on the side that it leans towards to have the weight on the other side pull it back. Since it is some canopy for some little stuff under it, I'm not anxious to do that. I did fashion a "hanging water bucket" if you will to add some extra weight over there. May help, may not.

Again, not a solution to the problem, but an observation which may help.

[BS Man about Palms]

I should add that as little as 2 -3 months ago there was no noticeable lean on this palm, it was growing straight and true. Unlike the last photo above.

[pogobob]

I should add that as little as 2 -3 months ago there was no noticeable lean on this palm, it was growing straight and true. Unlike the last photo above.

Bill, I don't think your young Howea has the start of "leaning crown". Most howeas do not grow straight, their trunks and crowns usually have a tilt towards the south here in Cal. due to the angle of the sun here, and you will also see some wavering S turning on tall trunks. They seem to meander along as they go up. Looks like some secondary stress induced pink fungus from cold wet conditions and it will most likely grow out and recover

[BS Man about Palms]

I should add that as little as 2 -3 months ago there was no noticeable lean on this palm, it was growing straight and true. Unlike the last photo above.

Bill, I don't think your young Howea has the start of "leaning crown". Most howeas do not grow straight, their trunks and crowns usually have a tilt towards the south here in Cal. due to the angle of the sun here, and you will also see some wavering S turning on tall trunks. They seem to meander along as they go up. Looks like some secondary stress induced pink fungus from cold wet conditions and it will most likely grow out and recover

Thanks Bob, I suspect it will come out OK, but its not leaning south, its kinda leaning towards your house (n.e.), maybe it wants to visit!

[falcon1988]

Hi Bill,

I thought that leaning crown in howea's was an early sign of boron deficiency until i read your posts

I have 2 currently growing in Pinellas co part time sun the other in shade however my one by the house

is much older and started to lean a bit so i did some research and some say its boron others say something

else so i applied some boron to the howea and sure enough it has corrected the lean but I saw your post and i

started to rethink of the whole leaning problem could be possible something to look at plus you have given some

ideas how to correct it if mine does indeed start lean again. that was a great observation on your behalf.

Regards

[pogobob]

I should add that as little as 2 -3 months ago there was no noticeable lean on this palm, it was growing straight and true. Unlike the last photo above.

Bill, I don't think your young Howea has the start of "leaning crown". Most howeas do not grow straight, their trunks and crowns usually have a tilt towards the south here in Cal. due to the angle of the sun here, and you will also see some wavering S turning on tall trunks. They seem to meander along as they go up. Looks like some secondary stress induced pink fungus from cold wet conditions and it will most likely grow out and recover

Thanks Bob, I suspect it will come out OK, but its not leaning south, its kinda leaning towards your house (n.e.), maybe it wants to visit!

Yah! it wants to escape! Juskidding

[BS Man about Palms]

No other comments?

[quaman58]

Good observations Bill. It seems that the only affected Howeas I've seen are older, trunking specimens; yours seems a bit young. Have you seen young ones with it before?

[Kostas]

Have you been able to completely seperate the stuck spears?I ask because you say that it continues its lean

As a Howea lover,i hate this condition!!!

[Jeff Searle]

No other comments?

NO...for crying out loud!!!!! Move on to a new genus, so we can all stop going out into our gardens and checking on our Howea's. Mine's so tall (30-35') it's too hard to look up into the crown anymore. I hurt my neck this morning.......

Jeff

[Kostas]

Jeff,i wish i had one that big even if that meant checking it through with binocculars from the nearest tall building Or maybe its time to learn how to climb Howea safely...I am sure Bennz knows very well

[BS Man about Palms]

Jeff,i wish i had one that big even if that meant checking it through with binocculars from the nearest tall building Or maybe its time to learn how to climb Howea safely...I am sure Bennz knows very well

Kostas- Jeff is trying to make you limp by pulling your leg. The only time sees a Howea that big in his yard is between about 11pm and 3AM, you know, in his dreams....

[Darold Petty]

Hey Jeff, I thought your Howea was bent over not from the Leaning Crown, but from the massive weight of thousands of seeds!

[Phil]

Bill,

In looking at your closeup photos of the new spears, I note that one new spear is obviously necrotic and brown. When I see this I think of fertilizer burn or crown rot (fungus or whatever). I am not sure if this brown new spear is an early part of the leaning Howea syndrome. We'd have to look specifically for that and I don't have that answer. But, when there is necrosis of a new spear, it probably will fail to open and logically get hung up with future spears coming later, thus giving this appearance.

Phil

[BS Man about Palms]

Heres an update on the "sickness" this Kentia had (Howea). It JUST really opened the last frond in less than the last week(the long leaning one in the earlier pics). It has "pushed" the whole time, but I still believe if it was higher up and not visible as such, that it would have continued "a lean.

Hopefully, trouble free until next winter.

[Palmə häl′ik]

https://www.palms.org/palmsjournal/2007/v51n1p5-10.pdf

https://www.palms.org/palmsjournal/2007/v51n2p57-62.pdf

[BigFrond]

I don't think your Howea has the leaning syndrome. I saw one on Leucadia Ave. that has the leaning syndrome. The palm is slightly bigger than yours. The fronds of the palm are all growing to one side.

[BigFrond]

BTW, looking closely at your pictures, I think yours may be suffering from fungus. One of my Howea was slightly leaning. I thought nothing of it until yesterday when I noticed the dried up new spear. I pulled it and it came out. Hopefully it will pull through.

[DoomsDave]

Thanks for the observations, Bill!

That suggests a possible cure.

Hmm.

I always thought leaning Howeas were just bagged . . . . .

[BS Man about Palms]

Big- Read closer, I think it HAD fungus and Thus was the START of a "leaning crown" BECAUSE of the fungus. Sorry if not quite clear.

[Palmə häl′ik]

...Sorry for the BIG READ.

I was just browsin' around and stumbled upon it, and instantly thought about your thread...

..just tryin' to help.

Glad you got it knocked, or taken care of...

~Ray.

[BS Man about Palms]

Ray- no worries, good link. I was refering to BigFrond. (Which I once knew his name, but sadly forgot and is not on his signature or in his profile. hint, hint )

[Tyrone]

Leaning crown syndrome equals a boron deficiency. Boron deficiency creates mishapen growth in many plants. In Howea's it creates leaning crown syndrome. Applying boron to the soil can be risky because the difference between boron deficiency and toxicity is very small. Boron is highly leachable and the deficiency often shows up in wet sandy soils. When the soil dries out the boron isn't leached as fast and the deficiency disappears for a time until the wet conditions return. To avoid overdosing it's best to apply a trace element mix which includes boron in the right proportion (boron is a micro micro element) every so often during the wet season etc and also to amend the soil with organic matter to reduce nutrient leachability. Archontophoenix are also susceptible to leaning crow syndrome.

Best regards

Tyrone

[BS Man about Palms]

Leaning crown syndrome equals a boron deficiency. Boron deficiency creates mishapen growth in many plants. In Howea's it creates leaning crown syndrome. Applying boron to the soil can be risky because the difference between boron deficiency and toxicity is very small. Boron is highly leachable and the deficiency often shows up in wet sandy soils. When the soil dries out the boron isn't leached as fast and the deficiency disappears for a time until the wet conditions return. To avoid overdosing it's best to apply a trace element mix which includes boron in the right proportion (boron is a micro micro element) every so often during the wet season etc and also to amend the soil with organic matter to reduce nutrient leachability. Archontophoenix are also susceptible to leaning crow syndrome.

Best regards

Tyrone

Tyrone- Not hoping to start an argument here, but did you see those IPS articles? While I have read that a boron defiency can contribute, there seems to be a mystery regarding this problem lest there would not be the articles in the journal. Many of the Howeas around are in clay or rich, mulched soils and be at somewhat boron stable point and still get it. Many have had the boron "fixed" and it still grows lopsided. (In other words, once started, it rarely "corrects itself") Also, if you noticed the necrosis in my Howea that caused the leaves to fuse together, do you believe that would be caused by a boron deficiency?

Whatever causes the leaves to not come apart "on time", be it pink rot, boron deficiency, whatever, is what I'm suggesting is the physical manifestion

that starts the leaning crown.

Anywho, all just a shared observation on my behalf.

[Tyrone]

Bill, I'm not trying to start an argument either. But something to think about, Do you think that the fungal issues related to the leaning crown syndrome are related to a secondary fungal infection attacking the necrotic areas which boron deficiency causes. Boron deficiency does create necrosis in serious situations. Also in soils that have been Boron "corrected", how is the boron level in the soil being measured. Available Boron can vary with the seasons. In the case of a Howea, applying Boron will take a long time to correct a serious leaning crown once it's been established, if it even corrects it at all before the plant dies.

It could simply be that if a case is severe and already established no amount of boron will correct it because the plant is way too far gone.

As regards clay soil, clay by it's nature holds on to too much water, and it may be particularly difficult to actually get boron to the roots.

These are just some points to think about, but I'm not arguing.

Best regards

Tyrone

[LJG]

We all know B deficiency causes trunk leaning in palms. But usually when you see it, the palm had warning signs. Lightning bolt style frond tips or later, deformed fronds - mostly at the end of the leaflets and tip of petiole. But when you see the leaning in Howea's, they seem like normal palms. Maybe Howea's do not show the stress until it is severe? I got no clue, but I will do the dissolved Borax solution should I see it in mine. Just to be safe.

Not sure I buy the pink rot theory. If pink rot is in the trunk, the palm is usually dead. At least mine

[BS Man about Palms]

Bill, I'm not trying to start an argument either. But something to think about, Do you think that the fungal issues related to the leaning crown syndrome are related to a secondary fungal infection attacking the necrotic areas which boron deficiency causes. Boron deficiency does create necrosis in serious situations.

Its too early for me to understand this. I have to reread it later.

[Tyrone]

Sorry Bill. That wasn't written too well. Let me reword it a bit. Maybe this is happening.

1. Boron deficiency gets setup in the plant. Necrosis eventually sets in. Plant begins to lean.

2. Secondary fungal infections invade necrotic areas.

Some have mentioned treating leaning crown probs for fungal infections(ie Bud Rot), but maybe the fungal infections are symptoms, not causes. That's all I'm saying, but I'm not being categorical about it. I'm learning from this discussion too.

There is something about Howeas that is different to many palms. My theory is that when the soil gets too wet, Howea roots have real trouble sucking up Boron.

Best regards

Tyrone