Are there Butia capitatas growing outside Brazil?

[Alberto]

According to Harri Lorenzis new palm book : Palmeiras do Brasil (Lorenzi/Noblick) the only real Butia capitata grows wild in the states of Bahia and Minas Gerais, thousands of kilometers from the Butia odorata and B.catarinensis (in South Brazil).

So,are my B.capitata (seeds from USA ) and yours real B.capitatas or a mix of odoratas and catarinenis???

On Lorenzi´s post tour to the Cadeia do Espinhaço we saw this growing near the road:

[Alberto]

Mr. Tobias Spanner for scale photographing this rare in cultivation and ´´little known species!!!´´

[edbrown_III]

Alberto

Good to hear from you on the board! Where can you buy the book at I got the edition from a couple of years ago --- on B. odorata listed . B. santacatarina wasnt listed as a species. How are these differentiated from B. capitata --- seed size or what other characteristics.

Best regards

Ed

[paulgila]

my answer is "yes" since there is one growing in my front yard.

[aussiearoids]

A large very old one at the small botanic garden in Maryborough in Queensland . It is pictured in some of the palm books published here in Aus. I collected seeds and germinated some many years ago .

[chris.oz]

Alberto,

Hi, so what are the key discriminators ?

How do we tell the real one ?

CHRIS

[peachy]

There are many B. capitata in all the local parks, all very old specimens, but I never see any in private gardens. These all look the same as the photos I have seen in the palm books.

Peachy

[Just1MorePalm]

thought about it...and...Yes..

Since they are for sale at my local Home Depot...

[Nigel]

thought about it...and...Yes..

Since they are for sale at my local Home Depot...

Alberto.......... is it ok to talk about the new species.... lorenzi asked me not to discuss until book was published !

[Kailua_Krish]

thought about it...and...Yes..

Since they are for sale at my local Home Depot...

I think the point was that the Butia in cultivation as capitata in the US may not be the actual capitata...

-Krishna

[Nigel]

thought about it...and...Yes..

Since they are for sale at my local Home Depot...

I think the point was that the Butia in cultivation as capitata in the US may not be the actual capitata...

-Krishna

yes Lorenzi and noblick have reviewed the species ( long overdue) and made lots of changes.

[Alberto]

thought about it...and...Yes..

Since they are for sale at my local Home Depot...

Alberto.......... is it ok to talk about the new species.... lorenzi asked me not to discuss until book was published !

Hi Nigel,

I bought Flora Brasileira-Arecáceas, Lorenzis new palm book at the Biennial, as did all others. There is an English version of the book also! Your late Nigel!

[Alberto]

The first described Butia capitata came from Northeast/Central Brazi. So the pic above is from a B.capitata. Later the southern brazilan populations of Butias and from Uruguay were also defined as Butia capitata. But both are different. The first grows in cerrado vegetation and the second at the shores (restingas) with thousands of kilometers separating both species.

The now described B.catarinensis grows in dunes in Santa Catarina and also a part of Rio Grande do Sul. It is also different from odoratas. This are little butias with short trunks,and very tiny seeds.

The cultivated ones don´t modify there appearence so its not a dwarfed butia due to growing in sand.

The palm you all have growing in your garden / nurseries are B.odorata!

[Alberto]

Alberto

Good to hear from you on the board! Where can you buy the book at I got the edition from a couple of years ago ---

Hi Ed! Thanks!

You can buy the new book in English or Portuguese here: http://www.plantarum.com.br/

[Alberto]

I have 3 specimens of B.catarinensis growing in the garden. They are small,silver/green and little seeds.

These were in the recent past cosidered B.capitata var.odorata and B.odorata and now are a separate species : B.catarinensis.....

[Alberto]

Seeds of B.catarinensis with bigger seeds of B.eriospatha

[Nigel]

Wow , Lorenzi,s new book is out !! Yippee now we can talk about this freely.

So to summarise, everybody who bought Butia odorata over the last few years has in fact got a catarinensis.

This is the Butia which grows along the coast of Santa Catarina and Rio grande do sul, small trunks, small elongated seeds.

As alberto said, the Butia odorata is the palm from uruguay, much larger with big round seeds like Jubaea seeds. This I suspect is also the butia in central south rio grande do sul near to uruguay.

Most capitatas in cultivation are this plant, although many have elongated seeds and not round seeds so this is not true of all of them.

Alberto, lorenzi was describing 4 new butias ( catarinensis was one ) , are these all in his book ?

[Kailua_Krish]

So most people in the US have B. odorata? I'm a bit confused.

Butia sp. odortata= B. catariensis

(American) B. capitata= Butia odorata

And not many people have the real Butia capitata?

Am I understanding this correctly?

-Krishna

[Alberto]

So most people in the US have B. odorata? I'm a bit confused.

Butia sp. odortata= B. catarinensis

(American) B. capitata= Butia odorata

And not many people have the real Butia capitata?

Am I understanding this correctly?

-Krishna

EXACTLY!!

[Alberto]

Most capitatas in cultivation are this plant, although many have elongated seeds and not round seeds so this is not true of all of them.

Alberto, lorenzi was describing 4 new butias ( catarinensis was one ) , are these all in his book ?

Nigel, I think to be clear,it´s better to say: ...most what was called ´´capitata´´in cultivation are this plant,.......

AAhhh! I have now B.odorata X Parajubaea cocoides.....

[Alberto]

Alberto, lorenzi was describing 4 new butias ( catarinensis was one ) , are these all in his book ?

Nigel,I don´t have the book here now,but one that I remember is Butia matogrossensis from...........Sete Lagoas!!....

Could it be that the palm you gave me (collected by your in laws is this palm,and not a paraguayensis.

Others,if I remember well were B.leptospatha and B.lepidotispatha....

[Nigel]

Alberto, lorenzi was describing 4 new butias ( catarinensis was one ) , are these all in his book ?

Nigel,I don´t have the book here now,but one that I remember is Butia matogrossensis from...........Sete Lagoas!!....

Could it be that the palm you gave me (collected by your in laws is this palm,and not a paraguayensis.

Others,if I remember well were B.leptospatha and B.lepidotispatha....

I think leptospatha and leiospatha were already documented ?

I had butia 6580 Ponta Pora MS, Butia 6760 Barra do Sul SC which is now catarinensis, Butia 6766 Jaguariaiva PR and Butia 6775 from Iguatemi - MS. I think Lorenzi was trying to clear up this ridiculous situation re paraguayensis where everything that didnt fit seemed to end up as paraguayensis.

The Butia tres lagoas I had seeds for but didnt know the proper name. Oddly the seeds look like Syagrus with only one seed inside. The Butia I found in tres lagoas had a normal butia seed similar to paraguayensis, but Lorenzi thought the plants in my garden looked the same, so its very odd.

Edited May 1, 2010 by Nigel

[gsn]

So most people in the US have B. odorata? I'm a bit confused.

Butia sp. odortata= B. catarinensis

(American) B. capitata= Butia odorata

And not many people have the real Butia capitata?

Am I understanding this correctly?

-Krishna

EXACTLY!!

Most capitatas in cultivation are this plant, although many have elongated seeds and not round seeds so this is not true of all of them.

Alberto, lorenzi was describing 4 new butias ( catarinensis was one ) , are these all in his book ?

Nigel, I think to be clear,it´s better to say: ...most what was called ´´capitata´´in cultivation are this plant,.......

AAhhh! I have now B.odorata X Parajubaea cocoides.....

Alberto,

Okay I am still a little confused?

Seems you are telling Krishna that what most people have in cultivation here in North America as Butia capitata are actually Butia odorata.

Then in the next post as I read it you are telling Nigel that most of the North American Butia capitata in cultivation are really catarinensis.

Did I read what you posted wrong?

thanks

Edited May 1, 2010 by gsn

[newtothis]

So my capitata = odortata = catarinensis??

Nevermind I can't post the pic, I get this

Error No file was selected for upload

[Kailua_Krish]

So anyone have any capitata seed they are willing to part with?

-Krishna

[Collectorpalms]

Okay now that we have cleared Butia up ( clear as mud) maybe we can get down to what Syagrus we have next.

Thanks,

Ryan

www.collectorpalms.com

[chris.oz]

Can someone please tell us what attributes the real Butia capitata has that distinguish it from the others ?

Surely this is described somewhere now ?

[Nigel]

Can someone please tell us what attributes the real Butia capitata has that distinguish it from the others ?

Surely this is described somewhere now ?

There was much confusion over both capitata and paraguayensis.

Butia capitata was growing both in Minas gerais, and over 1000km to the south in Rio Grande do Sul and Uruguay.

These populations were very different.

To further complicate , what was butia odorata was never officially given species status , it was listed as Butia capitata var odorata which grew along the litoral from Snata catarina down to uruguay. This was even further complicated by the fact that the odorata in uruguay was much different to the small odorata in Santa catarina.

So Noblick and Lorenzi have reviewed those populations. The original Butia capitata was the one growing in Minas gerais so this remains capitata.

The original name Butia odorata was given to the coastal Butias in uruguay, so these BIG butias with big round seeds and fruits retained the name odorata. These were the capitata most commonly cultivated, round seeds and grey leaves.

This left the Butias of the coastline of Santa catarina and north Rio grande do Sul, which formerly known as odorata are now officially catarinensis, a new species. Elongated seeds and small trunks.

Therefore if you have a Butia `capitata` with round seeds its an odorata now. If you have a `capitata` with elongated seeds it could be a catarinensis or a real capitata.

Butia paraguayensis was a name given to a hotchpotch of vastly different Butias growing in Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina and paraguay. Lorenzi and Noblick were also reviewing this species, and this is even more complicated.....

Butia capitata of Minas gerais

Solitary max 4-5m of height. Trunk occasionally subteranean. Diameter 20-30cm.

Leaves pinnate and arched, 11-20 leaves of 80 to 170cm length, 49-53 leaflets each side arranged in a V.

Peduncular bract 50-100cm long and glaucous. Flower rachis of 33 -55cm length with 100 flowering branches of 8-30cm length.

Fruits oblong, yellow, with dense pulpous fibre ,seed with 1 -3 compartments.

Habitat, Bahia, Goias, and Minas Gerais.

Edited May 2, 2010 by Nigel

[Nigel]

Here is a photo from uruguay of `capitata`, you can see cows for scale, these are BIG butias.

This is now the Butia odorata.

The second photo is of a butia catarinensis ,the biggest I found with human for scale. Very different.

Edited May 2, 2010 by Nigel

[chris.oz]

Nigel,

Thanks.

I seem to recall the "B. capitatas" here are of 2 types. Some have the oblong seeds.

But the majority have round seeds. so they sound like odorata. Mine has round seeds.

[Nigel]

Nigel,

Thanks.

I seem to recall the "B. capitatas" here are of 2 types. Some have the oblong seeds.

But the majority have round seeds. so they sound like odorata. Mine has round seeds.

Chris, here is a photo comparison ( sorry for quality) of the new uruguay odorata seeds ( big round ones) and catarinensis seeds. I had seeds from the real Butia capitata sent to me some 3 years ago and sold quite a lot of real capitata seedlings in the UK. These seeds were very similar to seeds of catarinensis , slightly more pointed at both ends and symeterical, shape of a rugby ball.

[gsn]

Nigel,

Thanks.

I seem to recall the "B. capitatas" here are of 2 types. Some have the oblong seeds.

But the majority have round seeds. so they sound like odorata. Mine has round seeds.

Chris, here is a photo comparison ( sorry for quality) of the new uruguay odorata seeds ( big round ones) and catarinensis seeds. I had seeds from the real Butia capitata sent to me some 3 years ago and sold quite a lot of real capitata seedlings in the UK. These seeds were very similar to seeds of catarinensis , slightly more pointed at both ends and symeterical, shape of a rugby ball.

Still confused here, what else is new, sorry!

Most of the "Butia capitata" around central Florida have round seeds, but NONE of them have seeds anywhere near as LARGE as those in the palm of your hand Nigel in the above post, which if I understand correctly is odorata seed,and you are saying that is what most of us in North America have in cultivation (odorata)? ! At most ours are 1/2 the size of those seeds maybe even smaller,but still round,at least the ones I have seen!

Edited May 2, 2010 by gsn

[Alberto]

Here is a photo from uruguay of `capitata`, you can see cows for scale, these are BIG butias.

This is now the Butia odorata.

The second photo is of a butia catarinensis ,the biggest I found with human for scale. Very different.

Nigel,this B.catarinensis is a GIANT! Normally they have very short trunks. according Lorenzis new book: trunks of 0.2 to 0.8 meters and diameter of 0.25-0.3 m.

B.capitata : 0.5- 4m; diameter of 0.2 - 0.35

B.odorata : 2 - 9m ; diameter of 0.3 m

So B.odorata can be very tall compared to B.capitata. B.catarinensis are generally ´´dwarfs´´

Takle a look at a map of Brazil and seek for the states Minas Gerais and Bahia(northeast Brazil) and then Rio Grande do sul.(south Brazil) The distance is enorm and there is no connection between this two Butia populations.(Butia capitata .....................B.odorata)

[sarasota alex]

Alberto, Nigel, is there a change in status for what is known as the bonnetii cultivar of Butia capitata?

[Nigel]

Here is a photo from uruguay of `capitata`, you can see cows for scale, these are BIG butias.

This is now the Butia odorata.

The second photo is of a butia catarinensis ,the biggest I found with human for scale. Very different.

Nigel,this B.catarinensis is a GIANT! Normally they have very short trunks. according Lorenzis new book: trunks of 0.2 to 0.8 meters and diameter of 0.25-0.3 m.

B.capitata : 0.5- 4m; diameter of 0.2 - 0.35

B.odorata : 2 - 9m ; diameter of 0.3 m

So B.odorata can be very tall compared to B.capitata. B.catarinensis are generally ´´dwarfs´´

Takle a look at a map of Brazil and seek for the states Minas Gerais and Bahia(northeast Brazil) and then Rio Grande do sul.(south Brazil) The distance is enorm and there is no connection between this two Butia populations.(Butia capitata .....................B.odorata)

Alberto, generally Butia catarinensis is as described by Lorenzi, however south of here is a place called laguna where there is a huge population almost all of them as described by Lorenzi, but on some better ground a few hundred metres further inland is some specimens with 4m trunks. I was going to show them to Lorenzi but an accident on the BR101 put a stop to that. These odoratas had thin trunks and crowns exactly like the others , but talllll. See pic.

Alex, Lorenzi and Noblick believe that Butia catarinensis and bonnetti are probably one and the same plant, and were going to name this bonetti, but in absence of being able to prove that fact opted for catarinensis.

[Tampa Scott]

So the seed here on the left is B. odorata seed ? What are the Butia seed on the right?

[sarasota alex]

Thanks for the info, Nigel!

[Nigel]

So the seed here on the left is B. odorata seed ? What are the Butia seed on the right?

Good question.... can be a real capitata , catarinensis, or some kind of hybrid between odorata and paraguayensis or yatay I guess. Does it fit the real capitata phenotype ?

[AJQ]

So what are the subtle differences then between Capitata and Odorata?

Both my "Capitatas" are so different they could thought to be different palms, even though they came from the same batch at the PC 6 years ago. One is much more Greener and the other is a more Bluer one. The Bluer one shot up very quickly in comparison to the Green one. The Green one was slower to shoot up but has made a lot thicker trunk in that same period. The Green one is more susceptible to spotting than the Blue one. The Blue one has clean Green petioles where as the Green one has a distinct mottling on the petioles.

Both trunks are 40cms diameter now.

Regards Andy.

[sarasota alex]

Andy I think your green one is the new catarinensis and the blue one is the new odorata.