How Far Can you Go..

[Kris]

Dear Folks  

i live in a area full of clay soil & so i had to do what a palm

love will do to safe guard his intreast..

and some plants did rot due to tsuanani rains we had few years back.so i had to check what is beneath these soil_

and i found hard clay to upto 8 to 9 feet in our property

and below this we get fine river sand kind of layer..

many of the existing memebers would have seen it but this

thread & its post caters purely to new members,and for few how missed this on previous ocassions..

Love,

Kris  

[Kris]

one more !

[Kris]

How Far Can you go Digging is the "Topic"  

[Kris]

Ditches & Hedges all Comming to U !

[Kris]

one more_

[Kris]

Now to the soil,this clay soil was sent out as rubbish..

every night when the road traffic was less.and when

mini trucks could come in and remove this soil out of our

property ! the digging and clay soil sending out took

about nearly 1 month.and i did not have access to digital

cameras them or else i would have covered the entire

episode for the benefit of our members !  

[Kris]

One more still on the clay soil front..

[Kris]

Loads of washed river sand was bought and dumped in raw

form without any mixing.that is around 4 to four & half feet or so only plain high course rough porous kind of sandy soil only.and the top layers had some mixing done to it.

here is one still of that washed river sand,though could not find some stills taken while the mini tipper trucks dumping the sand cought in action...

here is just a still of  the sand,to keep this thread alive,since its getting difficult to search my threads as i forget the topic headings ?  

[KatyTX]

Kris,

It that man with the '8FT" sign still waiting for you in the hole?  Please get him out

Seriously though, doesn't digging this kind of hole in clay just create a vessel for water to retain?  I'm not sure how heavy the monsoon is in your area, but that hole could retain water for many months (even if it is filled with sand).

Maybe I'm wrong?

[feijoa]

I was going to say the same.

I have clay too and when my pool was dug (just the hole), we had a three day stint of heavy rain. The hole was filled with water for days and the contractor kept saying "we'll just wait till it dries out"...two weeks later they had pumps running.

When I plant I till a large section because it's important to bust up the clay, then mix in peat moss, mulch (big pieces) and various soil amendments that break the clay up. As I dig my hole I always dig it bigger then I need and till downward as well. It's worked so far. I also graded the surface of my yard to slope slightly so water doesn't sit.

Planting anything in holes like the above (to me) is just like planting in a swimming pool.

[Dypsisdean]

I think you guys may have missed the part where Kris says:

"and i found hard clay to up to 8 to 9 feet in our property

and below this we get fine river sand kind of layer.."

Kris,

I was thinking of starting a poll one time of who is the most dedicated (crazy) palm grower in the Forum. You would have definitely been in the running.  

[osideterry]

I would find it an interesting geography lesson. Below my 1 foot of clay topsoil is a layer of what feels to my pickaxe like sandstone. I think it's some marine sedimentary clay made of extremely fine sand. If I were to keep up the dig I'd start encountering granite plutons: Orb-like boulders varying in size from a refrigerator to a school bus.  Those would have to be pulled out with a large crane, but could be arranged around my yard for nice effect.

[Kris]

Dear Folks  

all your opnions are in one way or the other i did encounter But...what happened i will tell tomarrow,

since iam loading some sand...o boy iam sorry iam loading some margosa_Neem trees stills of our gardens for the

benefit of margosa lovers from around the globe.

so kindly bare with me_Please ! while all your point outs are

preety intreasting.but i will answer each of those queries.

And thanks dean for considering me a palm crazy guy ! but i dont see any runners up in this matter.  

Thanks for your patience & Lots of love,

Kris  

[Scott]

Kris - I admire your hard work, determination and definitely stamina!

I throw all kinds of stuff at the clay soil where I live. When something is planted, I give it amended soil, then throw a variety of stuff on top over the months. Probably a portion of the stuff on top runs off, or blows away, so I have this coco shell mulch which sets down and compacts. It retains moisture pretty well, and hopefully holds nutrients in place.

Being new at this, I want success, but I also look at it as a giant experiment. So far, everything planted is thriving, despite the freeze, and high winds

[garrin]

Years ago when I was starting my tropical plant garden at my second house in California ( two miles from my first house, but on the south facing slope instead of the north slope of the same valley -- what a change in climate, from yearly freezes to no frost) I had serious adobe soil to deal with.  This soil is like digging in tar when wet in the winter, and cracks deeply into stone-like chunks if left to dry in summer.  After learning a bit about this at the first place, I scouted out my planting sites in the dry of summer and filled all the cracks with gypsum.  Old broken up drywall works great.  Every time I saw a crack where the soil dried even after planting I just filled the cracks with gypsum.  I generally kept a good covering of organic mulch around the root areas of my plants and let the soil continue drying and being treated beyond the root zones before the roots grew in.  I just a few years my hard adobe soil was like bagged potting mix.  I could almost dig a planting hole with one bare hand at any time of the year anywhere in my garden!  Here's to gypsum!

Garrin

[PalmGuyWC]

My God, Chris, that hole is big and deep enough to bury the entire Chinese army in! Such work!

I do it the lazy mans way since I have the same kind of clay that Garrin refered to. Since I plant my palms in the spring after the soil has gotten hard and cracked, I wet the area with a garden hose and wait about 3 days. I then spread about 6 inches of soil amendment over the area, doesn't really matter what kind, just so it's "organic," and then I curse my rototiller until it finally starts and then I rototill as deep as I can go.  The soil amendment falls in between the large clods of clay and soon there is something that looks like soil. I dig out the nicelyl amended soil, and then spread another 6 inches of amendment and repeat the process until I have a decent sized hole.

I might have to dig out the bottom with a shovel, but by that depth, the soil is soft and easy to dig. I was always told to dig a 50 dollar hole for a 50 cent plant and I would have good results. I dig the hole about 6 inches or more below where the root ball will rest and then put the amended soil in until the proper level of the palm is reached.  I plant the palm a few inches above the surounding soil to allow for some sinking as the amended soil is watered in. This methods works for me and I don't have a sore back when I'm finished.

Dick

[Kris]

(Scott @ Apr. 19 2007,14:09)

QUOTE

Kris

I admire your hard work, determination and definitely stamina!

Dear Scotty  

iam sorry to say i did not did it at all,i employed few men to do

my job ! to be very open & frank with you all,all i did was going

in and out of that pit.checking the soil strata and giving then

drinking water,tea and snaks whenever it needed.

my grandpa & dad often told me that every thing or person has a price_all things man made can be bought.i was just seeing that..in action ! but iam not telling this in sercasam.

its a really hard job they did for me.since i tried to be one with them,giving them a hand.but just in 15 minutes time my hands became numb and slightly began to bleed.they on noticing this asked me to stop.what i was doing.sit on the top soil and just tell my requirement.

honestly i felt like a colonieal landloard.but they were all

village farmers who do such works in off seasons.they

were doing my job so enthustically.do you folks know why ? initially i had told them iam going to plants trees in those

pits.they love nature and naturally vegitition too.

since the area iam living is totally comercial and few want to make quick money.as if there is no tomarrow !

and by the way,when they left finishing my job they left happily and even hands full !meaning i paid them well.

and kris new bargains with farmers & villagers.since they are the backbone of our country.

the above text is a sought of appriciation to all those

manual labours who did my laborous job in that scrouching

heat.And my sinsire thanks to all of human angels who got my job done ! they were so enthusiesed that were willing to go further down ! but that was not needed.

For me they are the unsung heros of our garden !

Love,

Kris  

[Dypsisdean]

Kris,

I sure hope you are going to show us was what is eventually planted in that hole.

[Kris]

Dear Dean  

certainly you can have the palm list rightaway...they are CIDP,

breha Armeta,Bismarkia Silver form, Corypha.Sp not shure

what variety,washy filifera,CIDP_Red Fruticas,Jubea,Sabal

river side..

since as of the above palms they are now ready with me.

i want them to be big,so placed in barrels in my roof top

garden where they get full sunlight throughout the day.and they are growing fast as thought they are on steroids.

all of these guys consume water heavily for its size.and need daily watering.as and when i do the planting i will cover it exclusively for our members.and that day do not seem to be far off.and now i have camera to cover all the live action as and when it happens.

Thanks and love,

Kris  

[Kris]

(KatyTX @ Apr. 18 2007,16:17)

QUOTE

Kris,

It that man with the '8FT" sign still waiting for you in the hole?  Please get him out

Seriously though, doesn't digging this kind of hole in clay just create a vessel for water to retain?  I'm not sure how heavy the monsoon is in your area, but that hole could retain water for many months (even if it is filled with sand).

Maybe I'm wrong?

Dear Matt  

the person holding that 8 feet sign board is your friend 'KRIS"

himself.and that still was taken by my friend who had a nikon camera.so i asked him to take these stills for the benefit of our

mambers.

and serious digging was done purely with the help and suggestions given to me by few construction engineers who

work often in our area.so they know the soil strata and the

layers..

they told that in my garden i have few left over rubbish of the old house,on which my dad built a new one.so the garden soil do needs cleaning of the old rubbish along with the clay soil too.

they hinted that around 7 to 9 feet down you will get fine

course river sand kind of loose,porous soil region that

layer is around 3 to 4 feet down.below this they hinted that i will get gravel kind of mild rocky soil here & there.

i then visited a few rig well or bore well engineers.they too

confirmed what data i gathered previously...

so the work began in full swing and after finishing and also

closing the pit,look what happened it rained heaviely as

expected.but do you know what ? in the neighbours  

properity the water was clogging for a day or so.but in our

garden their was not a single area where water could clog.

and as all have mentioned that the pits are more like water storage chambers..to clear the doubt that we all here had,so i asked the proffessional diggers to to test

one pit randomly.To see where is the water and is there any stagnation occuring below.if so the entire effort will

go waste.

the digging work began.feet by feet we were going down,

but to our joy the renewed soil was so easy to did up and

there were smiles we did not find clogging upto 4 to 5

feet.i suppose almost all the palms around the world just

need 3 to 4 feet of clean & dry feet.that was acheived easily.so i stopped the digging work.since my concern was

only the top 4 feet of soil drynes.to my knowledge goes the earth was not at all sockey or slushy at all.

so all i want our members to understand is when you dig

go to an extent where you find sandy soil.if not dont dig so low.since as most of you have said it will become a pool where water will stagnate,resulting in the trees & plants to rot.

and one thing i failed to mention here that in initial stages

i was not contented with the depth of 8 feet or so.i was

insisting our men to go further down.kept saying keep digging.then the local engineer came in to prove that its sufficient enough.he asked me to fill up a pit with a over head tank capacity of 8,000 liters through over night watering.so 3 taps were opened and water pipes where all kept into a pit.and we attempted to fill.

Boy next morning our tanks were empty.and we ran to see what was the condition of the pit which was taken for testing.the pit was indeed wet due to overnight watering but we could not see any water clogging at all.

when things are done with some professional assistance it usually pays off !

Dear Matt i think i have cleared your doubt.believe me its

working !  

Thanks for asking your doubts,

Love,

Kris  

[Kris]

Dear Guys  

for about a week time i had some work to do in these pits,treating with anti termite treatments,ant powder..etc

but before doing all that i used the blow lamp or the hand

held stove...and what i did with it _ guys guess first i will

tell you later !

here is the still of that blow lamp_

[Kris]

Dear Folks  

the blow lamp seen in the above still.was used to tourch and

dry-up any fresh roots that we found in that deep pit.

since in all the pits we encountered huge roots from various

dicot trees.and in some we even placed some non bio-degradable form of plastic sheets in the walls to discourage the roots from the side once again poping into the new porous zone !

and in the finishing stages we even burnt old dried-up leaves inside these pits to discourage rodents & ants from entering it.

since in our place during hot summers worms & ant come out of the pits,when its about to rain in our summer seasons.

okay guys see you later !

Kris  

[Kris]

Now to the present condition of those giant pits...around our garden !

some stills & updates of those pits which are closed and some pots have been placed to compress the soil & to make the garden appear neat,instead of appearing empty here & there..

Love,

Kris  

[Kris]

one more !

[Kris]

one more_

[Kris]

here folks i found large roots and to be cautious on this i used

a non-bio degradable plastic sheet on one side of the pit.

this sheet runs to about 4 feet straight down.

i thinks if you watch closely a white border line will be visible

to you on the top end !

[Kris]

here in this pit also i took the assistance of the plastic sheet,

in this still it is seen on the side_take a look !

[Kris]

one more_

[Kris]

one more_

[Kris]

one more ditch area now close after making soil ammedments

and mulching_

[Kris]

the following onces are smaller in reference to their width

but not depth_

[Kris]

one more_

[Kris]

[sonoranfans]

Yes chris you are a certified palm nut.  With you breakthrough to the sandy layer, drainage should be very good.  Most of us probably dont understand the magnitude of your monsoon accumulations, and the need to do what you did to get good drainage.  I would have thought to do the same in your situation, not sure.  In a few years you will be rewarded for your efforts.

[Steve in Brookings]

In Arizona and other desert areas of the American Southwest, similar strategies are used by the big commercial landscapers to get through the caliche layer that plagues many desert soils (although a backhoe is usually used to make the hole).  As long as you can get into a layer of sand or gravel beneath it, the hole will just act like a french drain and not like a bathtub.  Still, this works best where the precipitation peak comes during the growing season and the cool season remains relatively dry.  I don't think it would work well in a Mediterranean climate.

One of the problems I have is excessive windrock in a pocket of improved soil.  If the palm's roots are limited to an excavated area of improved soil and not knitted into the surrounding dirt, the wind can topple the whole thing quite easily, leveraging the whole root ball right out of the hole.

[Kris]

Dear Steve  

you and mr.dean are the 2 people who understood the whole

situation clearly.here when it rains it will rain for 2 weeks continues and the water will be stagnating everywhere till

our knee cap height.and when all of us are happy that the rains are over.we will have a spell of cyclonic storm,usually

no rain only heavy wind.those huge dicots come to earth as

9 pins.only palms & coconuts survive.

and why do dicots fall is due to clayee soil the roots never run deep in search of water.and yearly water stagnation in the roots helps fungus grouth leading to root rot.and they wait for the cyclonic storm during our mansoon rains to just come down.

and as you said a sandy soil foot is more easier to get approuted during storms.but i have never seen even one

palmera or coconut tree fall to the ground which are in

seashore areas in my place or around the globe ?

thanks & Love,

Kris  

[The Germinator]

I nominate Kris for having dug the biggest hole for his palm. Can anyone break his record.  Commercial transplants do not count. This was hand dug, I think.

[Kris]

Dear Germinator  

thanks for those appriciation for digging deep holes(many numbers) but they were actually done by casual labours and

not me as thought so !

and if this encourages palm lovers to do something similar just for the love and safe health of ones palms,i would say that

the mission is accomplished well.

love,

Kris.

And dear friend what is your name,since we meet often i wish to call you by a name or initial !(Thanks).

[Kris]

Dear Dean  

you had asked what palms will be placed in the clay soil ammended pits..i think after more than one year now its time to start planting palms here are the visuals..

this one pit we had placed Washy filifera :

[Kris]

A clearer still of the same washy..