Heliconia nutans

[JimR]

I just picked up an H. nutans and am taking it to Rockport this weekend. Has anyone had one? What's your experience?

[metalfan]

I have grown H. nutans in the past but no longer grow it. I did not particularly like this plant as heliconias go. It has a huge amount of lean out and is very unruly. It took several years to bloom, and when it did I found it not worth the wait. It can be container grown in a large tub if you can't put it in the ground, which I would not actually advise in Rockport (I assume you are talking about Rockport Texas not Rockport Maine) I grew up in Rockport and I don't believe it is warm enough in winter for for this plant. You might have better luck with H. schiediana

[JimR]

H. scheidiana is the only Heliconia I have grown in Rockport, and it has not exactly thrived, although it has survived.

[metalfan]

Hmmm... Well that could be because Rockport is not in USDA hardiness zone 10A. Its in zone 9. There's a big difference, for some plants, like most heliconias.

[JimR]

I would beg to differ with you that where I am in Rockport (on a little residential island called Key Allegro) is in fact Z10a by climate. There is a big difference. That's why I have Royals in Rockport, but not in San Antonio.

San Antonio is another case in point in regard to climate maps. In town (say inside loop 410) is clearly Z9a. The rest of town (principally suburbs) are considered Z8.

[metalfan]

I lived in Rockport when Key Allegro was being developed. It was little more than a pile of dirt when we first moved there, only a few houses were extant. My father worked for Karl Krueger, the gentleman who developed it, for many years. He was a whole lot richer than we were and his kids, Linda and Karla, certainly let us know that in school. Real "pecking order". But fortunately we were friends with the Brachts who owned Bracht's Lumber so we had some street cred, LOL. The Key is no more "tropical" than any other part of Rockport, although you might believe that being right there on the water has more of a "weather modifying" effect. We were also there when Palm Harbor was being built, (my uncle lived there for many many years) and City By the Sea was in its infancy. The fact that you have trouble getting H. schiediana, which is one of the most hardy cultivars of heliconia in existence, to "thrive" should tell you something. You do have a great climate, I can honestly admit that I only remember 2 actual "freezes" occuring in Rockport while we lived there, but our neighbor had lived in that area for over 50 years when we met him and he told stories of many hard freezes and even a few actual snowfalls that would preclude Rockport from being ever considered as a true Zone 10 climate.

Your official zone classification according to the USDA is zone 9. You may have a zone 10 microclimate in some years at Key Allegro ( but not others) leading you to think you can grow stuff that really isn't suited for your locale in the long term (though with global climate change, who knows?). Galveston Island is the same way, I lived there for a period of years as well before leaving Texas for California and now Florida. Galveston too has had its share of devastating cold events over time. I can remember playing at friend's houses in Key Allegro in the winter and the wind whipping up extremely cold air and making it very miserable.

I have very fond memories of my childhood in Rockport, going down to the Saltwater Pool before Hurricane Celia filled it with debris in 1970, hanging out at Mom's Bait Stand in the harbor waiting for the shrimp boats to come in (Mom, who was about 90 years old at the time, would give us kids free sodas, free Slim Jims and free bait shrimp to go fishing because she knew we were all poor), the way they used to blow the siren every day downtown at 12 Noon so everyone knew it was 12 noon (lol) lunchtime, siesta time, disaster drill time, whatever), water skiing in the Ski Basin, finding Vietnamese Glass fishing net floats and fossils on Rockport Beach, the "Big Shell" and the "Big Crab" at the beach. When I was older I went out as crew on a shrimp boat my friend's father ran out of Rockport Harbor, we helped him shrimp but mostly fooled around and worked on our tans, LOL. I went to Elementary School, Jr High and High School in Rockport. Drank beer and whiskey at the Rockport Drive- In (again before Hurricane Celia pretty much took it out). When I moved to Rockport, there was ONE stoplight. When I left years later, there were TWO. In my years there, we got a walk in movie theatre and a Whataburger, and that was about it.

Is the Duck Inn still there? The Shell Shops? The Rod and Reel Motel? Los Amigos Mexican Restaurant out on 35? What about that big yellow gingerbread Victorian house at the split downtown? Probably not. Its been too long. Those things have probably died away. I know SeaFair still goes on. How about the Fulton Mansion?? Still haunted?? Is the Big Tree still standing??? Is Sea Gunn Resort still there? My best friend's father managed that. How about the Sand Dollar?? That was a real ritzy place when we were kids. One of my friend's first summer jobs was as a waitress in the restaurant at the Sand Dollar.

Both of my parents as well as many of my friends and neighbors are buried in the Rockport Cemetery, and also in the Lamar Cemetery. Rockport has a special place in my heart, but its still not Zone 10. I may relocate there some day if I am ever widowed, LOL.

[JimR]

Well, I guess we will agree to disagree, although the 20+ year old royals and royal poincianas should probably have something to say about it. My family has been spending time in Rockport every year since prior to 1903, although we have never lived there for more than a few months at a time. It holds a special place in my heart too. I have responded to some of your questions/comments below. Maybe you will come and visit the old neighborhood sometime.

I lived in Rockport when Key Allegro was being developed. It was little more than a pile of dirt when we first moved there, only a few houses were extant. My father worked for Karl Krueger, the gentleman who developed it, for many years.

Karl Krueger was from San Antonio. When he bought Frandolig Island (now Key Allegro) from the navigation district, he asked my grandfather to invest with him. Unhappily, my grandfather turned him down. Mr. Krueger was always nice to me. He sold out all his interests in Rockport, except for his house and some vacant lots on Key Allegro to some guys from El Campo and Houston about 4 years ago. He passed away about a year and a half ago. I see his wife once in a while. She is still on Key Allegro.

He was a whole lot richer than we were and his kids, Linda and Karla, certainly let us know that in school. Real "pecking order".

I guess people mature as they get older. I know and like Linda and Karla quite a bit.

But fortunately we were friends with the Brachts who owned Bracht's Lumber so we had some street cred, LOL.

They sold Bracht's Lumber several years ago to a chain from Houston. It is now called Pro Build. Susie Bracht Black is still around socially, though.

The Key is no more "tropical" than any other part of Rockport, although you might believe that being right there on the water has more of a "weather modifying" effect.

The affect of being on the water is a meterological fact not something one might choose to believe or not.

We were also there when Palm Harbor was being built, (my uncle lived there for many many years) and City By the Sea was in its infancy. The fact that you have trouble getting H. schiediana, which is one of the most hardy cultivars of heliconia in existence, to "thrive" should tell you something. You do have a great climate, I can honestly admit that I only remember 2 actual "freezes" occuring in Rockport while we lived there, but our neighbor had lived in that area for over 50 years when we met him and he told stories of many hard freezes and even a few actual snowfalls that would preclude Rockport from being ever considered as a true Zone 10 climate.

Your official zone classification according to the USDA is zone 9. You may have a zone 10 microclimate in some years at Key Allegro ( but not others) leading you to think you can grow stuff that really isn't suited for your locale in the long term (though with global climate change, who knows?). Galveston Island is the same way, I lived there for a period of years as well before leaving Texas for California and now Florida. Galveston too has had its share of devastating cold events over time. I can remember playing at friend's houses in Key Allegro in the winter and the wind whipping up extremely cold air and making it very miserable.

I have very fond memories of my childhood in Rockport, going down to the Saltwater Pool before Hurricane Celia filled it with debris in 1970,

The saltwater pool is still there, although you would probably not recognize the whole beach area now. It is the only "blue wave" certified beach in Texas. Lots of palms, big pavilions, popular for beach weddings.

hanging out at Mom's Bait Stand in the harbor waiting for the shrimp boats to come in (Mom, who was about 90 years old at the time, would give us kids free sodas, free Slim Jims and free bait shrimp to go fishing because she knew we were all poor),

Mom's Bait Stand is still there, although you probably wouldn't recognize this "Mom".

the way they used to blow the siren every day downtown at 12 Noon so everyone knew it was 12 noon (lol) lunchtime, siesta time, disaster drill time, whatever), water skiing in the Ski Basin, finding Vietnamese Glass fishing net floats and fossils on Rockport Beach, the "Big Shell" and the "Big Crab" at the beach.

There is an effort afoot now to bring back the big blue crab.

When I was older I went out as crew on a shrimp boat my friend's father ran out of Rockport Harbor, we helped him shrimp but mostly fooled around and worked on our tans, LOL.

Funny, I did this too. We were paid in shrimp, but what we really wanted was anything unusual that came up in the cull.

I went to Elementary School, Jr High and High School in Rockport. Drank beer and whiskey at the Rockport Drive- In (again before Hurricane Celia pretty much took it out).

I have fond memories of the drive-in myself, although I was too young to drink beer there.

When I moved to Rockport, there was ONE stoplight. When I left years later, there were TWO. In my years there, we got a walk in movie theatre and a Whataburger, and that was about it.

Is the Duck Inn still there?

I am probably the only person who never particularly liked the Duck Inn. It closed last year. The building is now a shop. Corky's was always my favorite growing up.

The Shell Shops?

Still there.

The Rod and Reel Motel?

Still there.

Los Amigos Mexican Restaurant out on 35?

I believe this closed recently, but it was never a haunt of mine.

What about that big yellow gingerbread Victorian house at the split downtown?

Yes, that is still there. This was Tiny Smith's house. He was a friend of my grandparents and his daughters were friends of my mother's. The daughters sold the house and it is now a bed and breakfast.

Probably not. Its been too long. Those things have probably died away. I know SeaFair still goes on. How about the Fulton Mansion??

Yep.

Still haunted??

Mostly by tourists.

Is the Big Tree still standing???

Bigger than ever.

Is Sea Gunn Resort still there?

I believe so, although I am not over by there often.

My best friend's father managed that. How about the Sand Dollar?? That was a real ritzy place when we were kids. One of my friend's first summer jobs was as a waitress in the restaurant at the Sand Dollar.

The Sand Dollar got more and more rundown, until you really did not want to eat there because of the smell and the stained carpets, etc. It closed down about 2 or 3 years ago. Alice Faye's bought the building and moved there. Now it is Alice Faye's By The Bay.

Both of my parents as well as many of my friends and neighbors are buried in the Rockport Cemetery, and also in the Lamar Cemetery. Rockport has a special place in my heart, but its still not Zone 10. I may relocate there some day if I am ever widowed, LOL.

[epicure3]

H. scheidiana is the only Heliconia I have grown in Rockport, and it has not exactly thrived, although it has survived.

You should be able to grow H. Scheideana quite easily in Rockport. Being from higher elevations in Mexico, it does very well in coastal Southern California but also does very well in S. FLA. Another one to try in your area could be H. Subulata. You may even want to give H. Rostrata a try. It is much more suceptible to low temps but mine actually survived the winter which was colder than normal (though not even close to freezing).

[JimR]

You should be able to grow H. Scheideana quite easily in Rockport. Being from higher elevations in Mexico, it does very well in coastal Southern California but also does very well in S. FLA. Another one to try in your area could be H. Subulata. You may even want to give H. Rostrata a try. It is much more suceptible to low temps but mine actually survived the winter which was colder than normal (though not even close to freezing).

One of the local nursery(wo)men admitted to me recently that she was having trouble with her Heliconias as well. She believed the problem had to do with our city water. Is this likely?

[epicure3]

You should be able to grow H. Scheideana quite easily in Rockport. Being from higher elevations in Mexico, it does very well in coastal Southern California but also does very well in S. FLA. Another one to try in your area could be H. Subulata. You may even want to give H. Rostrata a try. It is much more suceptible to low temps but mine actually survived the winter which was colder than normal (though not even close to freezing).

One of the local nursery(wo)men admitted to me recently that she was having trouble with her Heliconias as well. She believed the problem had to do with our city water. Is this likely?

I doubt it. My water has to be the worst in the country and they seem to grow fine. If your bananas grow fine, I would think your helis would be ok as well. Saying that, I don't know what is bad about your water.

[JimR]

Bananas grow great. The only problem is keeping them in check. We are on almost pure sand, but that doesn't seem to bother the bananas either.

[mnorell]

Jim--

You should be able to grow a number of Heliconias just fine. I'm trialing many here in Natchez, Mississippi, a much colder-winter area than Rockport. I'm having surprising successes in an "average" winter. I'm in zone 9a and schiedeana grows here (though it freezes back, making it a foliage-only enjoyment), but latispatha 'Distans' survives here and blooms in a single season, as does lingulata. I'm trying many more and most of mine survived this last winter, though most completely died back to the rhizome (worst we had this year was 15 hours below freezing, low 23.3F).

I'm sure that Rockport is indeed a high 9b or low 10a climate when data is properly tabulated over a sufficient period of record. The fact that it has experienced severe freezes in the past doesn't mean it still can't have a long-term average minimum of 30 degrees or so. The 1990 USDA zone designations are terribly inaccurate, as they only used 12 years of data, from 1974 to 1986, an unusually cold period that included several of the worst winters to hit the southeast in the 20th century. If you can get the "period of record" data for Rockport (if there's a weather station there), you can calculate your actual average...and of course the more years you can count, the more accurate you'll be. Something tells me that when the new USDA map comes out this year, you'll find you're "officially" warmer than the 1990 map purports.

The fact is that your averages are warm enough to support many Heliconias over winter, even if one of the very infrequent freezes happens. Probably the worst will be that you won't get any blooms for one season on rostrata, schiedeana, and some of the other two-season bloomers. I say plant everything you can get your hands on and try it out. Just plant in a relatively south or southwest-facing, sunny, raised bed with a mixture of very coarse sand, pine-bark mulch, manure and small lava rock and you'll be in business. Give yourself some evergreen winter canopy in case of light freezes. H. subulata, 'Pedro Ortiz,' latispatha, schiedeana, bourgaeana, mutisiana, angusta, hirsuta, matthiasae, 'Golden Torch,' lingulata in its several color variations, and probably champneiana should all do great for you. H. collinseana is somewhat sensitive to cold, wet soil but you may be warm enough to get it to overwinter with good siting and drainage. This can flower in a single season as well. Try some of the orthotrichas, but you may want to avoid any of the strictas and also chartacea as they're extremely cool-sensitive. Please do try nutans and report back on the boards how it fared for you. Join the Yahoo lobsterclaw group, as most of the world's Heliconia authorities and serious growers monitor it and can answer many of your questions.

Good luck!

[JimR]

Thanks, Michael. I will keep trying. My H. scheidiana has never died back. It just seems to be languishing. I think I have planted the nutans ina better spot. I will try some others as I can get my hands on them.

[epicure3]

Jim--

You should be able to grow a number of Heliconias just fine. I'm trialing many here in Natchez, Mississippi, a much colder-winter area than Rockport. I'm having surprising successes in an "average" winter. I'm in zone 9a and schiedeana grows here (though it freezes back, making it a foliage-only enjoyment), but latispatha 'Distans' survives here and blooms in a single season, as does lingulata. I'm trying many more and most of mine survived this last winter, though most completely died back to the rhizome (worst we had this year was 15 hours below freezing, low 23.3F).

I'm sure that Rockport is indeed a high 9b or low 10a climate when data is properly tabulated over a sufficient period of record. The fact that it has experienced severe freezes in the past doesn't mean it still can't have a long-term average minimum of 30 degrees or so. The 1990 USDA zone designations are terribly inaccurate, as they only used 12 years of data, from 1974 to 1986, an unusually cold period that included several of the worst winters to hit the southeast in the 20th century. If you can get the "period of record" data for Rockport (if there's a weather station there), you can calculate your actual average...and of course the more years you can count, the more accurate you'll be. Something tells me that when the new USDA map comes out this year, you'll find you're "officially" warmer than the 1990 map purports.

The fact is that your averages are warm enough to support many Heliconias over winter, even if one of the very infrequent freezes happens. Probably the worst will be that you won't get any blooms for one season on rostrata, schiedeana, and some of the other two-season bloomers. I say plant everything you can get your hands on and try it out. Just plant in a relatively south or southwest-facing, sunny, raised bed with a mixture of very coarse sand, pine-bark mulch, manure and small lava rock and you'll be in business. Give yourself some evergreen winter canopy in case of light freezes. H. subulata, 'Pedro Ortiz,' latispatha, schiedeana, bourgaeana, mutisiana, angusta, hirsuta, matthiasae, 'Golden Torch,' lingulata in its several color variations, and probably champneiana should all do great for you. H. collinseana is somewhat sensitive to cold, wet soil but you may be warm enough to get it to overwinter with good siting and drainage. This can flower in a single season as well. Try some of the orthotrichas, but you may want to avoid any of the strictas and also chartacea as they're extremely cool-sensitive. Please do try nutans and report back on the boards how it fared for you. Join the Yahoo lobsterclaw group, as most of the world's Heliconia authorities and serious growers monitor it and can answer many of your questions.

Good luck!

Michael:

Do you have the web address for this Yahoo group. I tried searching but came up dry. Thanks!

John

[mnorell]

Here it is:

Yahoo Lobsterclaw group

[epicure3]

Here it is:

Yahoo Lobsterclaw group

Great. Thank you.

[metalfan]

Well, the lone dissenter still disagrees, LOL. Haven't been on the computer lately due to dealing with the start of a major home renovation, so haven't been following along on the discussion.

I have Heliconia rostrata, schiediana, latispatha and Pedro Ortiz planted out here. All come back every year from the rhizome (and have for about 5 years) but only Latispatha ever blooms probably because it has the most protected location.

But of course I have tons of bananas that do fine (I get bananas to eat if I want them, but usually give them to the squirrels). I have Ti plants in the yard, Tibouchina, Iochroma, calatheas, and bromeliads, as well as many other plants considered marginal here. Its simply just too cold in winter for heliconias and torch gingers, and Alpinia purpurata and the like, and I believe its too cold in Rockport too.

So, as said above, just agree to disagree. I've been experimenting with this stuff for over 15 years and have found what works here and what simply won't. Everyone has to find out the same thing for themselves and their own particular growing environment.

[JimR]

Here it is:

Yahoo Lobsterclaw group

Thanks, I will try it.

[Brian Bruning]

Does anyone in Northern California (Sunset zone 16) have H. nutans? I just got one and wonder how it will do here.

[clinton9]

I had grew my heliconia nutans from seeds, and my tallest h.nutans took three years to bloom.  Here'e photo.  It is on way to become pendent.

I lived in Thames, New Zealand at latitude 37 oS.