Differences between Copernicia alba and prunifera

[tank]

I have green and blue/grey forms of C. alba and a couple of variations of green on C. prunifera and I'm having a hard time telling them apart. Granted, most of mine are small. I've seen both at various botanical garderns throughout the Florida and I really couldn't tell you which one was which apart from the label. There is a Copernicia growing in Kanapaha Gardens here in Gainesville that I always thought was C. alba but there has been some speculation that it is C. prunifera. I kinda assumed it was alba based on the minimum temps it has survived (upper teens really don't phase it other than some leaf burn on its oldest leaves). Is there an easy way to tell them apart?

Gainesville Copernicia

[tank]

Actually,

The more I look at it the more confused I get.

If you told me it was a Livistona.... Maybe the label was for the tree underneath it.

[Kris]

Dear Tank

iam not an palm expert but your still resolution prompted me to speak out..i love it ! and it appears that iam seeing that garden with those lovely fan palms live..

glad you did not choose the thumbnail option...

thanks & love,

Kris

[tank]

Thanks Kris, it was a nice spring day.

Some pics off of the web of each (hopefully these are the correct plants):

Copernicia prunifera

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/26678/

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/93461/

http://palmguide.org/image.php?image=60810A_2004101461564

http://palmguide.org/image.php?image=60810A_2004101461529

Copernicia alba

http://palmguide.org/image.php?image=88324A_2004111659960

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/24233/

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/24167/

http://www.tropengarten.de/Bilder/B-copernicia-alba.jpg

http://www.thaipalmseedseedling.com/images...rnicia-Alba.gif

[Tampa Scott]

I have to agree that both C. alba and C.prunifera look alike. I have both the C. alba is a much faster grower. C. alba grows to 25 m tall and C. prunifera grows to 10 m tall. For me the C.prunifera has a rounder crown of leaves / C. alba looks a little flat with new leaves sticking above.

[Wai`anae Steve]

My C. alba is about 12 years old and has at least 12 feet of trunk. The other has maybe 3" of trunk.

[Ken Johnson]

That looks like alba. Can you get a close shot of the hooks on the petiole?

[Gaston in Argentina]

They look so simmilar...

If theres a difference, is just botanicaly talking, for the taxonomist.-

I saw so green Copernicia pruniferas as Copernicia alba and..

So white Copernicia alba as most Copernicia pruniferas.-

Both build the wax but is more abundant in C. pruniferas.-

White leaved Copernicia alba are by far less common then the green ones.-

The registers in cultivation of Copernicia alba to be faster growing then C. prunifera is interesting.-

[cfkingfish]

As far as I can remember, the only difference between C. alba and C. prunifera is one has one more order of branching on the rachillae, but I forget which species.

[tank]

That looks like alba. Can you get a close shot of the hooks on the petiole?

I'll try and get some pics soon. The more I look at that picture the more It looks like the palm underneath might be a Copernicia as well. The planting is very tight with a few different Livistona species mixed in with what appear to be two or three Copernicias.

Unfortunately two trees (a butia and a butiagrus, I think) were removed and stumps burned about 20 feet away from this grove due to Ganoderma fungus a year or two ago.

[edbrown_III]

It used to be identified as C. alba it has been there almost 20 years. through many freezes perhaps as low as 17F.

alba is differentiated in the Dahlgren monograph by the lenght of the inflorescence .. alba is close to the trunk very short less than 12" whereas C. prunifera is long and cascading (sort of like a Washingtona infloresce)

South Florida folks grow both and can point out salient vegetative characteristics.

Best regards

Ed

[merrill]

Hi, Tank:

Some of your example photos must be very old! The differences between these two Copernicia aren't striking to me.

Best wishes, merrill

[merrill]

Hi, Tank:

Some of your example photos must be very old! That's a compliment, not a criticism! The differences between these two Copernicia aren't striking to me.

Best wishes, merrill

[Eric in Orlando]

C. alba has been a faster grower than C. prunifera. And our C. alba specimens seem to lose some of their silvery color after the summer rains start, C. prunifera doesn't.

A couple C. alba, one with clean trunk and one with old leaf bases

C. prunifera

[merrill]

As I remember, years ago we got both Copernicia to KBG, but didn't recognize them nor try to key them out, they were so near identical.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[merrill]

As I remember, years ago we got both Copernicia to KBG, but didn't recognize them nor try to key them out, they were so near identical.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[merrill]

Hi, Jason:

It was very kind of you to provide so many Copernicia photos. I'm apparently too old it figure it out; can you distinguish them easily now?

Best Wishes,

merrill

[bubba]

Based on no expertise whatsoever but mainly observing the pictures from Leu supplied by Eric, I think it is prunifera based upon the upright and spiraling nature of the fans.

[iamjv]

Totally agree with Bubba.... I always believed C.P. had the spiraling affect on the old leave bases (boots) and alba didn't. Jv

[edbrown_III]

Totally agree with Bubba.... I always believed C.P. had the spiraling affect on the old leave bases (boots) and alba didn't. Jv

C. alba is differentiated from C. prunifera by the lenght the inflouresces---

Ed

[Kris]

All these years i thought that c.alba has green leaves,while c.purnifera has silver or blueish coloured leaves like the c.hospita !

But seeing the above stills,i find it very difficult to identify which is which ?

Love,

Kris

[gsn]

Totally agree with Bubba.... I always believed C.P. had the spiraling affect on the old leave bases (boots) and alba didn't. Jv

C. alba is differentiated from C. prunifera by the lenght the inflouresces---

Ed

Anyone care to comment on the cold hardiness between the two species? Seems the C. alba according to observations here is much more cold hardy than C. prunifera?

In looking at this table developed by Noblick PHD, it would seem that C alba, or C. prunifera would not take the temps reported here, but obviously it has?

http://www.bg-map.com/PLMTBLA.HTML

Also would anyone care to rank the Copernicias as to which is the most cold hardy and which is the least hardy?

thanks

[Caribbean Palms]

Jason,

According to RPS prunifera has much larger seed.

Here is an image I took of both seed, with alba on the left.

They have since germinated and the alba is a much faster grower.

[tank]

That area of the "palm grove" is pretty tight with plants. I'm guessing both species may still be there. I haven't made it back since posting this last year but it will be interesting how the plants did this winter and see if I can get any insight on what the may actually be based on the comments in this thread.

I think Kyle W. had some C. alba planted out at the University of Florida and if I remember correctly, these made it through without any damage this year. The low at UF probably was in the low to mid 20sF considering my yard made it down to the upper teens.

The range of these palms is so large, I would think that provenance would be very important for cold hardiness of individual plants of both species.

Mike,

I think the larger tree is seeding and I have to see If I can find some to compare with your photo and possibly take a photo of the inflorescence length. I should take more of an effort to collect seed from these plants.

Merrill,

Maybe you should inquire with Everett? He seems to be an excellent source for info! I also would like to know if the plant with the tag calling it Livistona alfredii is indeed that plant.

[SubTropicRay]

The one that defoliates in the mid 20's is C. prunifera. I know that doesn't help much but is a difference nonetheless.

Ray

[gsn]

The one that defoliates in the mid 20's is C. prunifera. I know that doesn't help much but is a difference nonetheless.

Ray

Ray,

Interesting you say that, as Dr. Noblick has it the reverse in his hardiness chart. That is the reason I asked the hardiness question,as it seems the C alba will take considerably more cold than C prunifera, according to where people are growing them in north central and north Florida,and the temps they are surviving!

That would almost have to make the one tank was asking about in the original post a C.alba as it is growing in Gainesville?

[SubTropicRay]

My C. alba makes it through unscathed year after year. In contrast, C. prunifera gets leaf tip die-back and on one occassion had bud rot from a frosty cold. This is just my experience.

[merrill]

Hi, Jason:

My deepest apologies for appearing so helpless. I'll check with Everett. Some of your respondents seem reasonable in their conclusions.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[tank]

Merrill,

If you're helpless, then I'm a target. I can't remember what I did last week, much less a couple decades ago.

jason

Hi, Jason:

My deepest apologies for appearing so helpless. I'll check with Everett. Some of your respondents seem reasonable in their conclusions.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[Urban Rainforest]

I have a Copernicia Prunifera here in San Diego that went through mid twenties in 07 untouched. It is 6 ft. tall with a 15" dia. trunk. It has a very silvery blue coloration. Here are a couple of older pics.

Stevo

[Urban Rainforest]

And a night shot .

Stevo