For Species of Palms that Like Limestone

[Phil]

Has anyone altered their native soil to try to reproduce limestone conditions? If so, what did you do?

Phil

[cfkingfish]

Phil-

I have never bothered altering much other than a few Caribbean species that seem to thrive in it, as here in Venice I have had fill clay which is mildly acidic. Crushed sea shells, pelletized dolomitic limestone, anhydrous lime are all used depending on how fast you need amendment.

[bgl]

Too much trouble! I don't have time to baby palms that decide to be picky about the soil! Bought five Maxburretia furtadoana from Floribunda in 1999. A year later they were all dead. That was too bad, but there are too many other palms to plant...!

[cfkingfish]

Bo-

Do you have a picture of them when they were alive? I have seen the pictures of this palm in habitat and would like to see how you tried to grow it.

[merrill]

I've had problems w/ inexplicable death of C. radicalis; I'm finally going to plant my tall radicalis in the ground w/ plenty of lime. Its native habitat is said to be in limestone. merrill

[bgl]

Christian,

Dead or alive, I'm afraid I have no pictures of the Maxburretias! That was years before my first digital camera, so I was rather conservative in what I took photos of. Unfortunately! But I planted them straight in the ground and that may have been part of the problem. I understand they grow on cliffs. Would be interesting to know if ANYONE has been able to successfully grow them. ??

Bo-Göran

[Wai`anae Steve]

Like Bo, I stickem in the ground and if they live fine. If not that's ok too.

[Alberto]

My soil here is acid. For most palms I use a little amount of crushed dolomite to ad calcium and magnesium to the soil. And for high pH loving palms like Chamaedorea microspadix and radicalis, Braheas etc I use bigger amounts of the same dolomite.

[Walter John]

What about Joey palms ? Aren't they supposed to require lime ?

[xerophyte_nyc]

Lime and limestone are very different things. Agricultural lime will quickly increase soil pH, and is a common lawn amendment.

Dolomitic lime has Mg and Ca, and will slowly increase pH over time.

But in terms of where plants grow natively, I think that if a particular species is found growing in limestone for example, its not necessarily that it prefers the higher pH or higher mineral content. I believe it is more likely that a calciferous soil may be more well drained and hence that species performs better. Or perhaps in a rich, humusy soil there is more competition so a species may not survive long term, but has adapted in a different substrate with less competition.

This seems to be the case with many succulents. They grow in poor, gritty soils because nothing else will. They don't need the same conditions duplicated in culture. With Palms I would imagine similar things are happening.

x

[quaman58]

I added garden lime to my Psuedophoenix based on the suggestion of someone who had a bigger Psuedophoenix than mine. (Steve from San Diego). I couldn't say whether it's made any difference. It was the most expensive palm I've ever bought, so I figured I'd leave as little to chance as possible.

Bret

[_Keith]

Our soils are normally acid, but when I planted a lime loving tree, I did so in an area where I had burned many fires. The constant buring in the area and ash I till in must have done it, because the tree is in awesome condition and look spectacular.

Keith

[LJG]

Phil,

Funny you asked this as this is where I was going with my question a month or two ago when I asked you online. I asked if you used crushed limestone and if you knew where to get it. I have no issue trying to get my soil amended to better my chances for some of the Caribbean stuff I truly enjoy. This spring I will be planted out some choice Cuban stuff so this is something I will be curious to hear about. My plan right now if amend with crushed limestone and then use the crushed limestone as a mulch so to speak.

[John in Andalucia]

Our soils are normally acid, but when I planted a lime loving tree, I did so in an area where I had burned many fires. The constant buring in the area and ash I till in must have done it, because the tree is in awesome condition and look spectacular.

Keith

I was also going to mention pot ash. I have bags of ash collected from numerous bonfires around the garden. So far, I've used it on year-old+ seedlings of Cryosophila albida and Brahea nitida. It's probably not necessary at such a young age, but if limestone soil is what they start out in, then why not.

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Some time ago i was having trouble growing Basellinia gracilis, Clayton suggested to find some broken cement pieces so went to a building site and found lots of small pieces, this has been very successful as they very slowly breakdown, finally have the Basellinia gracilis growing well, just put spread the pieces around the palm but not next to the trunk.

We all seem to have a palm that just not grow in our yards when down the road they have no trouble. This did and continues to work for me. Since then, all limestone loving palms have the conrete pieces around them

regards

colin

[nomolos]

Is there a list anywhere of palm's ph requirements?

[John in Andalucia]

Is there a list anywhere of palm's ph requirements?

Not yet, but as I've volunteered to start the IPS Palm Databse, we'll include that too.

[nomolos]

Is there a list anywhere of palm's ph requirements?

Not yet, but as I've volunteered to start the IPS Palm Databse, we'll include that too.

Thats excellent

[Phil]

It's great to read all the responses. I myself sort of share Bo's opinion: your soil is what it is and go with species that like your soil. Sometimes, certain plants may not like your garden and not thrive. Others will. But, this is just my general approach. This topic was generated because I've been asked by a customer how to get the Caribbean species to look better. Can soil be amended to mimic limestone? One might ask the same of New Caledonian species that grow in high nickel soil. Pieces of broken cement blocks is quite interesting.

Phil

[merrill]

In serious farming, even in areas not excessively sandy [ here in FL we are excessively sandy] dolomitic limestone[contains high % Magnesium] is routinely used. OTOH, non-dolomitic limestone is normally used only in construction. I'm remiss in not being diligent, but dolomite is usually recommended.

Best Wishes, merrill

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Hi Phil

Does not have to be broken cement blocks, just broken pieces of concrete left over from paths, driveways. mortar etc use about 5 pieces around smaller palms the size of 3-4 cm square by 3cm thick. cover with mulch, bigger pieces for bigger palms

regards

colin

[merrill]

In serious farming, even in areas not excessively sandy [ here in FL we are excessively sandy] dolomitic limestone[contains high % Magnesium] is routinely used. OTOH, non-dolomitic limestone is normally used only in construction. I'm remiss in not being diligent, but dolomite is usually recommended.

Best Wishes, merrill

[MattyB]

Like Colin, I put old crushed up pieces of concrete in the bottom of my holes if a species is said to thrive in calcareous soils. I'll also ammend the backfill with Dolomite Lime. I did this on some Brahea decumbens that I planted but they're so slow who knows if it actually helps??? As far as the carribean species, I add Dolomite to the potting mix. I haven't planted any out yet but I'll put concrete in the hole and add Dolomite Lime when I do plant out. I'm hoping the concrete and dolomite lime will combat the pH effects of adding mulch to the plants in order to keep moisture in.

[Alberto]

What about Joey palms ? Aren't they supposed to require lime ?

My Joey magnifica is growing in acid soil.

Here is it:

[John in Andalucia]

What about Joey palms ? Aren't they supposed to require lime ?

My Joey magnifica is growing in acid soil.

According to Utopia Palms & Cycads:

Likes sandy soil, a little lime and regular watering through warmer months.

[The Germinator]

Like Bo Says, stick em in the ground and if they can't hang, then C-ya. Just go to the next one on your list.

[Scott Zona]

Here in Miami, lack of limestone is never a problem.... except, sometimes in containerized palms. The only palm I've ever had trouble growing in containers because the potting soil was too acidic was Schippia concolor. I remedied the problem by top dressing with crushed oyster shells, purchased at a pet supply store (crushed oyster shells are a calcium source for caged birds). That took care of the problem, and once the Schippia went into the ground, it had no want of limestone.

[Kris]

I have a question to dear Bo Goran...does washy filifera's grow in our garden or for that matter any desert palms or plants..since in my opnion hawaii is seeing constant rains through out the year & rich valconic soil will assist any palm to grow..i feel your 5 Maxburretia furtadoana palms that you mentioned could have rotted due to constant rainfall there ?

love,

Kris

[Phil]

Dolomite, concrete blocks and oyster shells are winning so far. Has anyone sped up growth on Coccothrinax, Thrinax, etc. with these treatments?

Phil

[bgl]

Kris,

I have never tried to grow any Washingtonias, but I have seen some just a few miles away from here and being Washingtonias I'm sure they will thrive in ANY condition & soil conditions.

About desert palms - probably makes a difference what genus/species we're talking about. I have a Hyphaene that's been in the ground for about 6 years and it's doing just great. There's another Palm Society member a few miles away, and she has a Hyphaene that's probably 20 ft tall. Very impressive. What other desert palms did you have in mind?

Bo-Göran

[Kris]

Dear Bo Goran

thanks for the information,But in that case its surprising why those 5 palms you mentioned did not make it ?

thanks & love,

Kris

[palmmermaid]

I planted a Schippia concolor next to my house. It is the prettiest one I've ever seen! I think the leeching from the foundation has helped it along. It is dark green and growing well.

When I planted a C. crinita, I added crushed shell rock to the soil. That seemed to help. Most of the time, I am like Bo, plant it and if it grows fine, if not, replace it. If it is something I really love, then I will plant it near the foundation or add lime rock. I like the idea of adding pieces of broken concrete. I can always find that. In fact, they are building an addition on a house near me. Think I will go pick up a bucket or 2.

I have a Hyphanae to plant. I will put some concrete around it when I plant it. Hopefully that will help.

I do read about the natural conditions of the palms I plant and try to put them in an area in my yard that comes as close as I have to the natural conditions. If it says acidic or humousy I add extra manure and mulch.

[Gileno Machado]

About desert palms - probably makes a difference what genus/species we're talking about. I have a Hyphaene that's been in the ground for about 6 years and it's doing just great. There's another Palm Society member a few miles away, and she has a Hyphaene that's probably 20 ft tall. Very impressive. What other desert palms did you have in mind?

Bo-Göran

I also found Hyphaene (both coriacea and thebaica) easily adaptable palms, even in my climate with long humid and warm periods. I guess these palms grow better when fully exposed to the sun, even at young age. Medemia argun is a little more demanding of sun and drought but once past the first leaves stage they will adapt to a good shower every other day as well. The slowest growers for me during the humid season here are probably the Braheas, armata in particular, unfortunetly, because I`d trade a few here for a bunch of coconuts anytime... (I get amazed when I see Kris growing a beatiful B. armata seedling in his artic climate of downtown Chennai... Is your potting mix accidic, Bro? Tell me the secret please Man...I have a few Brahea brandegeei and others, and they seem to be much more tolerant to humidity. Please don`t even mention Nannorhops and other Palms from drier and coller environments, like Ceroxylon, Rhopalostylis, Caryota gigas...sigh. I wish I could give up with these species easily too but then I think to myself: what if I amend the soil next time, add some dolomite for a few seedlings, some humus with the others and try every possible combination with different seedlings (soil mix, sun exposure and watering schedule)?? I only managed to save a few Oenocarpus distichus in my third trial with their seedlings, experimenting in different media and shadecloth position...no trace of clay for those babies please...I`ve had horrible experience killing whole bunches of those insisting with unadequate media colectively.

Now when I manage to germinate something special and it is supposed to be tricky I always diversify the potting mix and plant a few in different conditions, submitting them to different sun exposures too. Well, I like challenges sometimes...Let`s see what happens to my newly sprouted Jubaea chilensis in the months to come...

Brahea brandegeei in Sirinhaem, seeds came from Orange County, CA (Adansonia grandidieri, to the left, another impossible to grow plant...)

[Kris]

(I get amazed when I see Kris growing a beatiful B. armata seedling in his artic climate of downtown Chennai... Is your potting mix accidic, Bro? Tell me the secret please Man...I have a few Brahea brandegeei and others, and they seem to be much more tolerant to humidity. Please don`t even mention Nannorhops and other Palms from drier and coller environments, like Ceroxylon, Rhopalostylis, Caryota gigas...sigh. I wish I could give up with these species easily too but then I think to myself: what if I amend the soil next time, add some dolomite for a few seedlings, some humus with the others and try every possible combination with different seedlings (soil mix, sun exposure and watering schedule)?? I only managed to save a few Oenocarpus distichus in my third trial with their seedlings, experimenting in different media and shadecloth position...no trace of clay for those babies please...I`ve had horrible experience killing whole bunches of those insisting with unadequate media colectively.

Now when I manage to germinate something special and it is supposed to be tricky I always diversify the potting mix and plant a few in different conditions, submitting them to different sun exposures too. Well, I like challenges sometimes...Let`s see what happens to my newly sprouted Jubaea chilensis in the months to come...

Brahea brandegeei in Sirinhaem, seeds came from Orange County, CA (Adansonia grandidieri, to the left, another impossible to grow plant...)

.

Dear Brother Gileno

its no magic or green thumb....anything like that.for me i use washed river sand,red sand,dried leaf mulch,fish meal,sea weed.that's it.and as for soil Ph level and water ph level i do not know much about that since iam not an pro in that field.but the water is well water and is very sweet to taste and that water we do not use for drinking purpose since when we boil the water the vessels leaves behind some salt sediments or even mild white/brow colouration in the vessels,though the water is crystal clear visibly !

And all the varities that our members warned me off they are growing fine,but those varites that were branded as bullet proof like washy simply conked-off without putting a stiff fight with the natural forces(Rain).

And i have grown breha armada in 3 different soils but the result is the same,they are growing fine in pots but i do not know what will happen if grounded,since the damp ground does not dry-up fast ?

Here are few still of my breha & Nubian desert palm !

love,

Kris

[Alberto]

Please don`t even mention Nannorhops and other Palms from drier and coller environments, like Ceroxylon, Rhopalostylis, Caryota gigas...sigh. I wish I could give up with these species easily too ................................Let`s see what happens to my newly sprouted Jubaea chilensis in the months to come...

Gileno ,você é um otimista incurável!!!! :D Like ´´someone´´ I know well that is germinating Tahina spectabilis here!

[Alberto]

..........but the water is well water and is very sweet to taste and that water we do not use for drinking purpose since when we boil the water the vessels leaves behind some salt sediments or even mild white/brow colouration in the vessels,though the water is crystal clear visibly !

Kris,your water is probably hard. If you ad some soap and it doesn´t form soapsuds easily ,that´s ´´hard water´´,rich in lime,with a high pH......

[Breadfruit Bill]

Phil, I have no documentation to back this but, I repotted my largest P. ekmanii in 10 parts Crushed argonite (obtained from a salt water aquarium store and not cheap) mixed by volume with about 1 part Canadian peat and it has taken off almost at a snail's pace now! I do think it is growing almost 2x faster now than when it was in it mix that the grower had it in when i purchased it as a seedling.... lava rock, sand and peat... I can go out weekly and look at it and see growth... I could not see growth like this in the prior substrate...

[millic]

Has anyone altered their native soil to try to reproduce limestone conditions? If so, what did you do?

I've just began the initial phases of building a dry garden bed and have found some useful tips from the Yucca Do website. Specifically they mention using broken concrete to raise the bed and adding dolomite lime to the soil.

See below for their instructions on amending the soil.

http://www.yuccado.com/articles/dry_garden.htm

To prepare a dry garden bed, we recommend planting on top of the existing soil level. We use recycled construction material (broken bricks, tiles, and concrete) to raise the planting foundation as high as possible (see illustration below). On top of this, we prefer to add bull rock (2"-4" in diameter) or pea gravel works almost as well.

When planted high and dry, most desert plants can thrive in areas of high rainfall and low temperatures-even as far north as Boston. We plant in a soil mixture that consists of two parts ground pine bark, one part coarse concrete sand, and one part pea gravel.

To this we add three parts 'Yucca Doo-Doo' 6-2-4, one part bat guano, 1/2 part kelp, and a handful of dolomite lime for each 20 gallons of soil. Top-dressing the surface around each plant with pea gravel or crushed granite helps to prevent weeds, shades the roots in summer, and collects heat during winter.