Sabal palmetto on the West coast

[Ray]

I have had conflicting reports on this question, so I would like to hear from some of our West coast, particulary California members, on just how frequently the S. palmetto is seen there. I would also like to know if Sabal minor is found in the wild there, or how often it is cultivated there.

How about other Sabals? I'm just full of questions today aren't I?

[tropicalb]

oh...i see about 100 or more in 5 gal pots.

[Kris]

Dear Burt Newman

lovely still and great job

love,

Kris

[PalmGuyWC]

I'm happy to see that someone is growing Sabals for sale in Calif. They are not very popular on the West Coast because they grow so slowly with our cooler nights. They also take up a lot of room and require a lot of heat to grow nicely. They do well inland with summer heat and away from the coast. At least in N. Calif., Sabal Riverside grows the fastest and it's a very attractive Sabal. I don't know of any mass plantings of Sabals in Calif. I have about 7 different kinds of Sabals, and S. Riverside has grown in height twice as fast as the other Sabals.

There are no native Sabals in Calif. The only native is Washingtonia filifera.

Dick

[osideterry]

Just driving around North San Diego County, the number of Sabals I've seen would fit on one hand. That's not counting the ones in backyards or at the Quail Garden.

I'm positive I've never seen a Sabal at an HD or Lowes . What yard wouldn't be upgraded by having a Sabal yapa, Sabal mauritiiformis or Sabal uresana?

[MattyB]

Sabals are a rare treat to see around here in SoCal. After watching Paul's grow over the years I'm really taking a liking to them. I'd say that most of the Sabals we see around, which aren't that many, look like S. palmetto to me. There out there you've just gotta look closer to find them.

[fastfeat]

In all my years of walking SoCal streets doing tree inventories (hundreds of miles over 15 years), I have only seen two Sabal palmetto as street trees. They are (were?) a couple of blocks from my house in downtown Huntington Beach (Pecan Av?). Then, last week, at Chaffee Zoo/Roeding Park in Fresno, I found three, including one almost 40' tall--large, even by South Florida standards.

[PalmGuyWC]

See the comments on S. plumos and rosei. Most of them look alike.

Dick

[chris78]

Sabal are rare in the Phoenix area as well, but there are some. There is even a gas station that has 4 large ones. Some nurseries in the area carry 5 and 15 gal size plants. In my yard I have about 5 different species. They atr all slow growers but love the heat and grow well in sun or shade. Quite drought tolerant as well. ASU (Arizona State Univ.) in Tempe has quite a few Sabal in there landscape that produce seeds, I think most are S. mexicana.

I have Sabal mauritiformis which is the most tender sabal I have, but it recovered from two nights at 18F.....

[merrill]

California seems to have a partial vacuum of the Genus Sabal. All of the Sabal spp. mentioned would make a good

contribution to CA. It would be particularly interesting to try S. uresana [which comes in green and blue] S. pumos and S. rosei; the latter two are from true hill country, and closely related. It is an unusual experience for us Floridans to look up a steep hillside and see see Sabal over ones head! All three have considerable coldhardiness. Can any of you post a temperature that has damaged any of these three Sabal? Best Wishes, merrill

[BigFrond]

Palomar college have probably the best group of sabal in S. California. The sabal mauritiiformis there is awesome. A bizzie is small compared to it. A couple of houses on Twin Oaks Valley Rd grow them in the front yard.

[NorCalWill]

Hi Ray,

I've had this beautiful Sabal minor growing in my back yard in Santa Rosa, CA (North of San Fran) for about 5 years. It was in a 5 gallon container for several years where it just kinda hung out until I put it in the ground...then it really started growing nicely for me. My soil is clay which I've ammended, and I have it planted in full sun. It gets regular irrigation from the drip system and I fertilize it with a liquid fertilizer (Maxsea) every couple of weeks.

You couldn't have posted your question at a more perfect time, because I am wanting to plant a Sabal palmetto in my garden as well but can't seem to find one. I went to Neon Palm Nursery here in Santa Rosa, and they had a few Sabals, but they weren't labeled and the salesman thought they might be Sabal riverside. I also went to Golden Gate Palms in the Richmond area where they also had some unidentified Sabals but no palmetto. I was a little frustrated that these nurseries didn't even know what they had. I think Sabal palmetto is a beautiful palm which would be a nice addition to my garden. I am going to have to do a little shopping around though.

As far as seeing Sabal palmetto, minor and others around my area, I see none being grown in landscapes, and definately none in the wild.

-Will

Edited June 3, 2008 by Will

[sonoranfans]

Sabals may be rare in public places in arizona as they wont survive a failed drip irrigation system( poor maintenance in city owned spaces). I have 2 trunking blackburniana, 1 small sabal minor, 1 small sabal uresana, and one trunking sabal bermudana(12' overall). The bermudana and blackburniana(called palmetto now) are not particularly slow, they are equal to or a tad faster than my bismarckias. I have a 10'(overall height) blackburniana that was planted as a 2' 15 gallon palm 3 1/2 years ago, and a 12' one that was planted as a 3' 24" box at the same time. The 12 footer is over 15' wide, its a beast. These palms push out 7-9 new fans a year. I have seen some 10-15' sabals around the east valley in yards, perhaps 5-6 of them besides mine. The treeland nursery has a large one on display, just about a 30 footer that is 17 years old(planted from a 24" box tree), its the seed source for my blackburnianas. Sabals are slow before the trunk forms, but after they are medium growers here. Here are my two blackburnianas:

Edited June 3, 2008 by sonoranfans

[epicure3]

There are some large sabal palmettos growing down in Balboa Park SD, but they just don't look the same as the beauts I have seen in Charleston, SC on south.

[tropicalb]

thanks for the kind words Kris!

the sabals pictured in my post are actually the FIRST palm seeds i ever germinated. They were given to me by Kevin Weaver, and came off the S. palmetto in his front yard.

EDIT: also, if you look closely at the middle of the picture near the top, you will see some Sabal "riversides" in 15 gal containers.

They are approx. eight years old, and are gorgeous palms!

Edited June 4, 2008 by tropicalb

[iwan]

Sorry I missed you when you were in Fresno. There may be close to a dozen Sabal scattered throughout Roeding park. The largest ones are probably 80-100 years old. The only other Sabal I have noticed in my area are at a Taco Bell in Madera. Pretty unusual palms for a fast food joint. Not sure what they are (possibly Riverside). Nobody had any opinions when I posted pictures of them last year, but I wouldn't expect them to be anything uncommon. They were untouched in 1998 and 2007. Never noticed any palmettos here though. I have eight species here (and a couple of unknowns), but the largest is only 15g and most are 1g. I found (and bought) a 5g Riverside at Home Depot in Fresno last year, but I have never seen any others for sale outside of palm specialist nurseries. Phil Nickel has some nice in-ground trees at his nursery near Bakersfield.

In all my years of walking SoCal streets doing tree inventories (hundreds of miles over 15 years), I have only seen two Sabal palmetto as street trees. They are (were?) a couple of blocks from my house in downtown Huntington Beach (Pecan Av?). Then, last week, at Chaffee Zoo/Roeding Park in Fresno, I found three, including one almost 40' tall--large, even by South Florida standards.

[freakypalmguy]

The Fullerton Aroboretum (SoCal) has some massive Sabals. They have Sabal uresana's around 30 ft. tall.

I'm growing Sabal uresana, palmetto, pumos, causiarum riverside, mexicana, mauritiiformis, and a couple of unknowns. All of which are small and only a few have been in the ground for more than a year so the jury is still out, but they looking good so far.

Matt

[paulgila]

Sabals are a rare treat to see around here in SoCal. After watching Paul's grow over the years I'm really taking a liking to them. I'd say that most of the Sabals we see around, which aren't that many, look like S. palmetto to me. There out there you've just gotta look closer to find them.

are we still talking about palms?

[Rusty on Pine Is.]

Sabals may be rare in public places in arizona as they wont survive a failed drip irrigation system( poor maintenance in city owned spaces). I have 2 trunking blackburniana, 1 small sabal minor, 1 small sabal uresana, and one trunking sabal bermudana(12' overall). The bermudana and blackburniana(called palmetto now) are not particularly slow, they are equal to or a tad faster than my bismarckias. I have a 10'(overall height) blackburniana that was planted as a 2' 15 gallon palm 3 1/2 years ago, and a 12' one that was planted as a 3' 24" box at the same time. The 12 footer is over 15' wide, its a beast. These palms push out 7-9 new fans a year. I have seen some 10-15' sabals around the east valley in yards, perhaps 5-6 of them besides mine. The treeland nursery has a large one on display, just about a 30 footer that is 17 years old(planted from a 24" box tree), its the seed source for my blackburnianas. Sabals are slow before the trunk forms, but after they are medium growers here. Here are my two blackburnianas:

Tom, the Blackies look great, so do the Syagrus...very nice grouping.

Rusty

[yachtingone]

This pic was taken 1-19-06. The one on the left is sabal rosei the other one is sabal bermudana. This pic I took today! I live in Corona CA, 30 miles inland. I give them lots of water and Lutz fertilizer spikes. I think they are growing fast, but what do I know? I think cycads grow fast.

[yachtingone]

p.s. I have sabal bermudana, maritima,mauritiiformis and pumos seedling for sale or trade or whatever! Contact me privately if your intrested. I am going to put some in my front yard!!!

[Palmateer]

In Florida, we call this genus SABE-ell.

In Calif, some seem to pronounce it Sab-ALL

[PalmGuyWC]

I was born in SABE-al country. Only in S. Calif. do they call them Sab-ALL. There was an older gentelem in San Diego that had a thick Eurepoean accent and he called them Sab-ALL. I think that's were the pronounceation started down there. I think his name was Singen, and he was a PS member and he was well known for his ability to lace Podocarpus and thin them out.

Dick

[epicure3]

I prefer Sabe-ell personally.

[sonoranfans]

Sabals may be rare in public places in arizona as they wont survive a failed drip irrigation system( poor maintenance in city owned spaces). I have 2 trunking blackburniana, 1 small sabal minor, 1 small sabal uresana, and one trunking sabal bermudana(12' overall). The bermudana and blackburniana(called palmetto now) are not particularly slow, they are equal to or a tad faster than my bismarckias. I have a 10'(overall height) blackburniana that was planted as a 2' 15 gallon palm 3 1/2 years ago, and a 12' one that was planted as a 3' 24" box at the same time. The 12 footer is over 15' wide, its a beast. These palms push out 7-9 new fans a year. I have seen some 10-15' sabals around the east valley in yards, perhaps 5-6 of them besides mine. The treeland nursery has a large one on display, just about a 30 footer that is 17 years old(planted from a 24" box tree), its the seed source for my blackburnianas. Sabals are slow before the trunk forms, but after they are medium growers here. Here are my two blackburnianas:

Tom, the Blackies look great, so do the Syagrus...very nice grouping.

Rusty

Thanks rusty, sabals work well here, and syagrus do OK as well with some TLC.

Yatchingone, Nice bermudana, love the hue. The bermudanas have that distinct green blue color, and that one doesnt look like a slow grower.

[Ray]

Thanks a lot for all of the replies, and they confirm, pretty much what I already believed and had been told. I was actually asking the question to confirm another thought that I had on another subject. I have researched the Sabal birmingham for several years, and since I was familiar with it before the lone parent tree was transplanted to the Birmingham Botanical Gardens, and had taken a seedling from it before that time, I am the owner of the oldest S. b'ham. now living. According to one story that was told, (by the family of the original owner of the palm) the lady brought the plant back from California as a seed. Since the most accepted guess is, that S. b'ham. is a cross between S. palmetto and S. minor, and since both of these palms are not exactly plentiful in California, it has caused me to doubt the story.

The story that I got from neighbors shortly after the owners death was, that she brought it back from the Daytona Beach area in Florida, sometime in the early to mid twenties. I find that story much more plausible than the one about California, although I suppose it could have been possible that a S. minor and a S. palmetto could have been close enough together there, just unlikely. Almost anywhere in Florida would have been much more likely.

Well, I hope that I haven't bored everyone to death with this rambling, I just wanted to air this out to see what everyone here thinks. Below is a picture of my S. b'ham., which is growing at my Alabama location.

[chris78]

Nice picture and palm.... but the sad truth is you may never really know for sure.... The seed could have come from a botanical garden in California that had both species planted next to each other. I have both fruiting palms of sablals at my place and people from out of state have taken the seed to grow in there garden.... well 20 years from now they may said that the seed is from Arizona.... well who could prove it??

I saw a few sabals in Israel when I was there, if I brought back seed.... well who could prove or disprove the seed came from there... and since I have many trips to Florida.... well you see my point....

I have quite a few sabals in my garden and not one did I ever bring back from Florida, eventhrough I have a long history of bring palms from Florida...

This is the seeds of fokelores....

[aztropic]

My only Sabal;this is it's third year flowering.

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[sonoranfans]

I was talking to Don at treeland, he gets about 1000 seeds a year from his "blackburniana", and grows them. He says that over the years he has noticed that the variability in the form of the sabals produced in each batch of seeds is suprisingly pronounced with respect to petiole length and leaflet shape. We concluded that this sabal(his 30 footer) and alot of other sabals are actually hybrids and that the genetics seem to come forth randomly in the physical variations. My sabal bermudana is remarkably different than any of the blackburnianas I have seen from his seed, in color(more blue), petiole length( 1 foot shorter at least), leaflet shape and in the fruits. The bermudana has notably shorter petioles, smaller fruits and the fronds are less costpalmate with frond tips that taper more rapidly to a point. My bermudana differs slightly from yatchingones in shorter petiole length and in the taper of the leaf tips(more rapid), but has the same color.

Edited June 5, 2008 by sonoranfans

[Ray]

I was talking to Don at treeland, he gets about 1000 seeds a year from his "blackburniana", and grows them. He says that over the years he has noticed that the variability in the form of the sabals produced in each batch of seeds is suprisingly pronounced with respect to petiole length and leaflet shape. We concluded that this sabal(his 30 footer) and alot of other sabals are actually hybrids and that the genetics seem to come forth randomly in the physical variations. My sabal bermudana is remarkably different than any of the blackburnianas I have seen from his seed, in color(more blue), petiole length( 1 foot shorter at least), leaflet shape and in the fruits. The bermudana has notably shorter petioles, smaller fruits and the fronds are less costpalmate with frond tips that taper more rapidly to a point. My bermudana differs slightly from yatchingones in shorter petiole length and in the taper of the leaf tips(more rapid), but has the same color.

Yes, Sabals are definately varied from plant to plant, around here I see various shapes and forms. I agree that many may be hybrids and this is what may produce the variations we see. Without any studies of the DNA on the S. b'ham. we will probably never know for sure what it really is, and I have resigned myself to that fact long ago. Due to its slow growth, when compared to Sabal palmetto, and its flower stalks that reach well outside of the crown, I subscribe to the Minor/S. palmetto origin. The leaves, while being as large as S. palmetto, do not recurve nearly as much, and are darker green and stiffer. It has the cold-hardiness of the S. minor, almost rivaling the Needle palm and everything considered, its a very interesting plant.

Edited June 7, 2008 by Ray

[Exotic Life]

Burt,

Looking good and clean you're first picture. Only hobby or buisness?

Robbin

[merrill]

Hi, Aztropic:

Your sabal has a fascinatingly short inflorescence! Can you identify it? Best Wishes, merrill

[tropicalb]

Thanks Robbin...

Hobby gone insane!

Started out as just a hobby, and four years later it's turning into a business that is threatening to take over my life. I really enjoy it though!

[palmtreeguy]

I have had conflicting reports on this question, so I would like to hear from some of our West coast, particulary California members, on just how frequently

the S. palmetto is seen there. I would also like to know if Sabal minor is found in the wild there, or how often it is cultivated there.

How about other Sabals? I'm just full of questions today aren't I?

Here is a list of Sabals that can be found at least in northern CA areas.

Source:

http://www.palmsnc.org/pages/species.php

Hardness and Name

-5 Sabal minor

10 Sabal minor X Mexicana

10 Sabal palmetto

12 Sabal palmetto var. Parviflora

15 Sabal var. riverside

18 Sabal Mexicana

18 Sabal uresana

20 Sabal bermudana

20 Sabal rosei

20 Sabal causiarum

22 Sabal etonia

24 Sabal dominguensis

25 Sabal maritima

25 Sabal mauritiiformis

25 Sabal pumos

28 Sabal yapa

There are no native Sabals in Calif. The only native is Washingtonia filifera.

Dick

Yes, there are no Sabals native to CA, but there are actually five palms native to CA from what I have read:

California Fan Palm (Washingtonia filifera)

Mexican Fan Palm (Washingtonia robusta)

Blue Hesper Palm (Brahea armata)

San Jose Hesper Palm (Brahea brandegeei)

Guadelupe Island Fan Palm (Brahea edulis)

Source:

http://www.palmsnc.org/pages/article.php?id=20

Thanks a lot for all of the replies, and they confirm, pretty much what I already believed and had been told. I was actually asking the question to confirm another thought that I had on another subject. I have researched the Sabal birmingham for several years, and since I was familiar with it before the lone parent tree was transplanted to the Birmingham Botanical Gardens, and had taken a seedling from it before that time, I am the owner of the oldest S. b'ham. now living. According to one story that was told, (by the family of the original owner of the palm) the lady brought the plant back from California as a seed.

Since the most accepted guess is, that S. b'ham. is a cross between S. palmetto and S. minor, and since both of these palms are not exactly plentiful in California, it has caused me to doubt the story. The story that I got from neighbors shortly after the owners death was, that she brought it back from the Daytona Beach area in Florida, sometime in the early to mid twenties. I find that story much more plausible than the one about California, although I suppose it could have been possible that a S. minor and a S. palmetto could have been close enough together there, just unlikely. Almost anywhere in Florida would have been much more likely. Well, I hope that I haven't bored everyone to death with this rambling, I just wanted to air this out to see what everyone here thinks. Below is a picture of my S. b'ham., which is growing at my Alabama location.

I have become very interested in Sabal Birmingham and I'm planning on buying and planting 1 to 4 of them here in zone 7a/7b AL soon. The all time record low here was around -15 to -20F in 1966 But it rarely gets below 5 degrees (5F to 15F is common each winter). Very nice Sabal Birmingham picture Ray, I am also very interested in all the history I can read of this amazing mysterious palm. With all the information I have looked at so far, I also agree the most likely cross is a S. palmetto and S. minor cross. Sabal palms being few and far between now days in California would make me think Sabal palms were very rare if not absent or almost absent back in the 20s. But I think just the pure lack of Sabals in CA especially in the 20s makes the story seem not very likely. But who knows for knows for sure though, could be true, yes it would be fantastic if a genetic analysis could be preformed on it to prove what it is for certain. And it would be nice if there was a guide showing introduction dates of different palms into CA etc.

Here is a map I made showing the native range of S. palmetto and S. minor:

Click this link

How I think the most likely story went (by info from you Ray and from websites etc.):

Miss Eva Alexander brought the palm back from the Daytona Beach area in Florida in the early to mid twenties. The Palm survived for more than 40 years in Miss Eva Alexanders yard on Graymont Avenue in Birmingham. After her death her house was going to be cleared for a new church, but the palm was saved and was first moved to the Birmingham Botanical Garden in 1976. The original palm died around 1987 or 1988 (after too many re-locations) within the garden. The lowest temperatures the palm ever survived was - 4 degrees in 1966, - 4 again in 1985 and -6 the next day in 1985. I suspect the death was caused by improper transplanting and or care, which greatly reduced the palms ability to survive the non-severe winters and or the hot summers around 1987 or 88 (compared to what it survived in the past).

So your palm was planted around 1974, is that correct Ray? So that would mean your palm went through a -7F to -8F morning on 1/21/1985, that's amazing, that almost ties the Tulsa, OK record. This should likely prove Miss Alexanders palm did not directly die from any freeze, but most likely from from improper transplanting/care, and again high heat/dryness and or non-severe cold declined it farther while it was in this weakened poor state.

Take a look at this Jefferson county map I made of record lows including the USDA hardness map (By the official USDA hardness map of 2003, you would actually be in zone 7b Ray by a smidgen :-) ):

Click this link

Tulsa, OK Sabal 'Birmingham' pics:

http://okcitrus.com/index.html#06-17-07

http://www.amazinggardens.com/john.html

Since the Sabal Birmingham in Tulsa survived -11F on 2-4-1996 with only 20% leaf tip burn, that makes me think that mature Birmingham specimens in the south start to receive a little tip damage past about -5 degrees on average, a quarter leaf burn around -10 degrees, full defoliation around -15 to -20 degrees and death around -25, -30, or -35, there are lots of variables but this is just a guesstimate.

I was wondering if you Ray or anybody knows about how many Sabal Birmingham palms are still living that came from the seed off of Miss Alexander's tree, including yours? And also where they are located or where most are located if possible. I was wondering this because when I order, I would like seed grown Sabals Birminghams off these trees. In other words I would like the second offspring of the original palm, which might make them more hardy perhaps and lessen the chance of mix ups etc.

Also I was also wondering if anybody knows how easy a Sabal Birmingham and a Sabal palmetto cross? It just looks like many nurseries selling Sabal Birmingham would actually be selling many Sabal palmetto X Sabal Birmingham crosses by how close their palms are located to each other.

An example would be Gary's Nursery (see the S. palmetto on the left and the S. Birmingham on the right) Seems like many S. Birminghams Gary is selling would not be true Sabal Birminghams if they can cross. It may or may not be true does anybody know? Edit: I just read in another board that the flowers of the adjacent palmettos and minors are removed by Gary just in case to prevent any crossing.

http://www.garysnursery.com/DSC02966_op_800x580.jpg

http://www.garysnursery.com/SabalBirmingham.html

One more question, (probably asking too much) but at what age does Sabal 'Birmingham' start making seeds?

Is it at 15years old?

Thanks very much.

[iamjv]

Hey AZtropic, nice shot of your sabal. Was that sold to you as sabal riverside by chance??? I had bought a couple of seedlings labeled S. riverside and my largest looks exactly as yours to include the yellowing petioles and fronds. I've not been able to alter this characteristic of the palm despite what I feed it... so I'm just letting it be. Jv

[The Germinator]

Anyone got pics of maritima, I currently have hundreds of seedlings and am curious how they look in California.

I have a muriatiformis, palmetto, mexicana, and a minor in the ground. There is a ma & pa nursery by my house that has palmetto's in 36 inch boxes for a good price.

[pg6922]

Anyone got pics of maritima, I currently have hundreds of seedlings and am curious how they look in California.

not sure how the Sabal Maritima looks in Cali, but I just posted a pic of one here in SW Florida.

[aztropic]

Hey AZtropic, nice shot of your sabal. Was that sold to you as sabal riverside by chance??? I had bought a couple of seedlings labeled S. riverside and my largest looks exactly as yours to include the yellowing petioles and fronds. I've not been able to alter this characteristic of the palm despite what I feed it... so I'm just letting it be. Jv

It was sold as a Sabal bermudana and has grown to this size from a 5 gallon pot in only 6 years.It has flowered the past 3 years and produces tons of seeds.

[Walt]

About 15 miles N.W. of me is Highlands Hammock State Park (inland south central Florida). The park has been maintained in its natural state. No non-native plants or palms are allowed to exist in this park. The tallest Sabal palmetto in Florida used to reside in this park. It topped out at 90 feet, but was killed by lightning about 5-6 years ago.

However, there are still countless 80 feet plus specimens in the park. I took this shot back in December of 2002, standing at the base of a tall Sabal palmetto. I'm 6'-4", so I estimate the camera lens was close to that of the ground when I took the photo.

Many of the sabals in this park are very old. Some are contorted and have serpentined trunks.

[iamjv]

AZtrop - that is amazing growth... oddly enough I also have a palm sold to me as bermudana but it doesn't look anything like your palm and has been a much slower grower. It's really starting to get massive leaves and a trunk, so it'll certainly be larger then the riverside I have. Here are 2 pictures of my riverside that is similar to your palm pictured above... JV