King palm Hardiness

[mari]

There is a seller on e-bay claiming that he has a King palm with cold hardiness to 22F. KING PALM, latin name: Archontophoenix cunninghamiana RARE "Illawara" Cold Hardy Variety... Is this possible?

[edbrown_III]

Theres a few of them around Jax FL, I lost mine at low 20's a fellow ( a tad south of me and closer to river) had one planted next to the fire place-- his survived a low 22 or so. It grew to about 50 feet or so got lanky and a wind storm broke it off.

You can probably grow them in between 10 year loaws .

Best regards

Ed

[Troy_ATX]

Looks like others haven't had much success with it over regular Kings.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/pa...0937064907.html

[edbrown_III]

Well it aint a sure thing and you cant tell if its LLwara or not or just a cold hardy King.

Theres was a big one in Jax that I mentioned .. but all mine died from freezes

Best regards,

Ed

[mari]

Looks like others haven't had much success with it over regular Kings.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/pa...0937064907.html

Thanks Troy, I like gardening on the edge but I am going to stay away from that palm..

[bgl]

Survival rate probably depends on the age (=size) of the palm, and for how long it's exposed to the low temps. When we lived in Poway, CA (half an hour north of San Diego) we had an A. cunninghamiana that survived 22F twice with fairly minimal damage. It had 6 ft of trunk.

[Davidl]

It can also matter where you live because these palms have not been able to survive below 25 degrees very often in Fl but I have read many times where people in California have had them live 22 degrees. I personally don't think there is much difference between Cunninghamiana and Illawarra if at all.

[gsn]

And what it is planted in, type of soil,sand, loam, clay,decomposed granite. How much water is in the tissues of the plant and surrounding soil. How healthy it was before the freeze event.Was there actual frost with the freezing temps. There are many variables I think, just besides the absolute low temps.

Having said that the person asking this question,lives in Atlanta GA.

I think any type of king palm,of any variation is not going to survive for very long in that climate.

That palm is borderline here in east Central Florida on the coast which is a 9b/10a climate,mainly due to FROST damage with temps WAY ABOVE 22F.

Edited June 19, 2008 by gsn

[DoomsDave]

For what it's worth, Kings will take some cold.

I had some common kings, far as I knew, take about 20-22 F - judging by damaged Phoenix reclinata nearby.

I don't think "iliwara" means a thing.

[tropicalb]

Here is what one night of below 20F degree temps did to my 200 5 gal A. cunninghamianas:

EDIT: the following 7 nights of temps 25F or below took all but three of them out for good....lest ye all forget the "great freeze of '07".

Edited June 20, 2008 by tropicalb

[osideterry]

Burt - Where were those kings that they experienced below 20F? I saw some toasted washies and CIDPs in Fallbrook along the San Luis Rey. I know it's possible. 25-26F at my place in '07 doesn't seem so bad now.

[tropicalb]

at the bottom of a pretty vicious cold drain area in Vista Terry.

[Tala]

native Aussies can confirm this, the Illawarra moniker obviously refers to a specific range, these are "canopy emergent" palms, meaning they are shaded & protected from cold while young. One advantage they do possess is some ability to grow well in total shade; most other Archonto's will languish without some full sun. So they were originally marketed back in the '80s as a cold tolerant crownshaft palm, this notorious illusion was put to death by the Xmas 1989 freeze (back to back 19f lows). I've witnessed many die throughout the '90s from exposure to lows in the mid 20's. However several mature seeding palms in the metro Orlando area do exist, these planted of course after the Big Freeze. Once out in the open they are just as intolerant of cold as any other in the genus. Vegetatively as well as botanically they are no different from an "ordinary" cunninghamiana. If you have some shade they make wonderful additons, now & again you will see one push a gold or red colored leaf.

[ghar41]

I've purchased a number of these Illwara's over the past 10 years or so and have grown them here in 9b. I agree that they have no cold tolerance preference over the standard species. I will say, however, that at least here in my area, they are much, much faster growing. This palm in the picture is in its 5th or 6th year of growth (my current house is 7 years old.) The base is over 14 inches wide and many of the leaf nodes on the trunk are 6 inches apart. A plant at my previous residence gets next to no care and the crown now stands above the second story.

My area is known for foggy winters and hot dry summers.

[Frond of Palms]

I know this is an old topic, but I purchased three of these plants from Ebay in July of 2011. They were all together four seedling each having about three to four leaves and about 5 inches tall. I potted and placed them under my oak tree, along with some other palms I bought. Bad mistake because the squirrels chewed two along with Jubaeopsis Caffra. I moved them into a make-shift screen house, and when winter came put them into a make-shift greenhouse (they grew to about one foot). The end of March 2012 I put them in the ground and so far been growing with some bumbs and bruises.

The following photos were taken June 2012 and today.

[Frond of Palms]

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

Perhaps the most frost sensitive palm I grow.

Also the only palm that I grow that was damaged this winter.

But... they are cheap to replace!

[Frond of Palms]

Yes they are, I'm in zone 9a. I have to keep an eye on the forcast and be ready to wrap them, but the tall one is already 11 feet to the tip of the spear. Yeah they were like $15.00 for all four "cheap as chips" I also got another group of five from a guy down in Palm Harbour as on gallons two years ago and they are starting to take off.

[Sandy Loam]

Frond of Palms, where did you buy yours? These trees are apparently sold at many big box nurseries in California so are quite easy to find here. Yet they are not terribly easy to find in Florida as far as I can tell. They don't seem to be a common nursery palms in any part of Florida, north, south or middle.

BTW, my Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana (6 of them) have now survived 3 winters here without any problems, although we have not had any drastically low temperatures during these past three years that these palms have been in the ground. Mine have no damage and winter is over now....almost.

[Tropicdoc]

Gonna give some kings ago down here under heavy canopy AND against the south side of my garage AND with rope lights and wrapped for freezes

[_Keith]

I had one under the oaks where the alfredii are now planted. Made 24 with no damage. Lost it in 2010 at 19 degrees. No protection was provided.

It was cunninghamiana.

[Tropicgardener]

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana 'Illawarra' comes from the very southern range of their existence in coastal southern New South Wales and as a result you would expect some resistance to cold spells........... In this area of tropical North Queensland A. cunninghamiana only exists in a few restricted pockets at high altitudes and doesn't really perform well in the lowlands under cultivation. In northern NSW and southern Queensland there are pockets of them growing at over 1000 metres altitude, these may prove more cold hardy than the 'Illawarra' form............. As I type this I am looking out of my home office window on groves of Archontophoenix alexandrae that occur along the rainforest creeks in this area.

[Frond of Palms]

Frond of Palms, where did you buy yours? These trees are apparently sold at many big box nurseries in California so are quite easy to find here. Yet they are not terribly easy to find in Florida as far as I can tell. They don't seem to be a common nursery palms in any part of Florida, north, south or middle.

BTW, my Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana (6 of them) have now survived 3 winters here without any problems, although we have not had any drastically low temperatures during these past three years that these palms have been in the ground. Mine have no damage and winter is over now....almost.

Hi Sandy Loam,

I added to this topic because the person who started it mentioned there is a person from CA who sells on Ebay that claims to sell the "Illawara" variety. As I mentioned in my above reply I had purchased some from an Ebay seller from CA. I also state that I found a Florida contact in Palm Harbor which is in Pinellas Cnty. This person who listed them on CL was a back yard grower who collected seed from his own trees and was in the process of selling his house and was moving to Georgia, and he wanted to get rid of all the seedlings. He told me that he made a special effort to contact a reliable source in S. Florida to provide him with the Illawara variety, and he assured me that they were real.

Now that the Palm Harbor plants have established themselves I do notice some differences. Theses plants as young plants show a powder like fuzz (bare with me I'm not versed in all the correct terminology) along the petiole and silver like tinge on the back side of the leaflets, and the leaflets themselfs stick out straight...not druppy and curved like the Ebay plants. Also the P.H. plants have a stiff uprite stance and put out a copper color new frond in the early stage the gets to be a darker green the the Ebay ones.

[Frond of Palms]

Gonna give some kings ago down here under heavy canopy AND against the south side of my garage AND with rope lights and wrapped for freezes

Hi Tropicdoc,

I find that they grow fast in the shade. The tree on the right of my lanai gets less sun and grows much faster. I have had these for 45 months now and hopfully if we stay having mild winters they will continue to thrive. But, as I stated the larger one is 11 feet to the tip of the spear and wrapping this guy can be quite the task, so at some point it's going to have to fend for itself. I don't want to break my neck

[Frond of Palms]

I had one under the oaks where the alfredii are now planted. Made 24 with no damage. Lost it in 2010 at 19 degrees. No protection was provided.

It was cunninghamiana.

Hi Keith,

Tell me the details on the Alfredi (the frozen coconut?)

[Frond of Palms]

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana 'Illawarra' comes from the very southern range of their existence in coastal southern New South Wales and as a result you would expect some resistance to cold spells........... In this area of tropical North Queensland A. cunninghamiana only exists in a few restricted pockets at high altitudes and doesn't really perform well in the lowlands under cultivation. In northern NSW and southern Queensland there are pockets of them growing at over 1000 metres altitude, these may prove more cold hardy than the 'Illawarra' form............. As I type this I am looking out of my home office window on groves of Archontophoenix alexandrae that occur along the rainforest creeks in this area.

Hello Tropicgardener,

Do you think based on the remote location of these Illawara King Palms most plants in the States are not true and the name is being exploited?

[Tropicdoc]

On wrapping a king palm.... I will only wrap the trunk and meristem when it gets bigger. Palms apparently will regrow from that point. That is only worth it on a fast grower........ king palm. or even a coconut.

[Ben in Norcal]

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana 'Illawarra' comes from the very southern range of their existence in coastal southern New South Wales and as a result you would expect some resistance to cold spells........... In this area of tropical North Queensland A. cunninghamiana only exists in a few restricted pockets at high altitudes and doesn't really perform well in the lowlands under cultivation. In northern NSW and southern Queensland there are pockets of them growing at over 1000 metres altitude, these may prove more cold hardy than the 'Illawarra' form............. As I type this I am looking out of my home office window on groves of Archontophoenix alexandrae that occur along the rainforest creeks in this area.

Hello Tropicgardener,

Do you think based on the remote location of these Illawara King Palms most plants in the States are not true and the name is being exploited?

Illawarra are not from a remote region. The region is a very popular summer vacation destination, as I understand it, south of Sydney.

[Jim in Los Altos]

I have thirty mature Illawara in my landscape and ten mature standard cunninghamiana along with many young ones and the Illawara are all slightly less cold hardy than the standard king palms. The big diference here is growth speed with the Illawara growing MUCH faster than the standard kings. Growth rings are often more than 12 inches apart on Illawara and closer to six inches on cunninghamiana. I've got A. purpurea, alexadrae, myolensis, and maxima also and, except for purpurea, that are more tender than cunninghamiana by a degree or two.

[Frond of Palms]

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana 'Illawarra' comes from the very southern range of their existence in coastal southern New South Wales and as a result you would expect some resistance to cold spells........... In this area of tropical North Queensland A. cunninghamiana only exists in a few restricted pockets at high altitudes and doesn't really perform well in the lowlands under cultivation. In northern NSW and southern Queensland there are pockets of them growing at over 1000 metres altitude, these may prove more cold hardy than the 'Illawarra' form............. As I type this I am looking out of my home office window on groves of Archontophoenix alexandrae that occur along the rainforest creeks in this area.

Hello Tropicgardener,

Do you think based on the remote location of these Illawara King Palms most plants in the States are not true and the name is being exploited?

Illawarra are not from a remote region. The region is a very popular summer vacation destination, as I understand it, south of Sydney.

Hello Benr,

You are correct, but from what I understand (and I can be wrong) there are three districts of the Illawarra region. One is the north-central just south of Sydney in the area of Lake Illawarra , the west district being the Illawarra escarpment which is state conservation land, and a southern district north of Shoalhaven, and according to what I have read this area is historically semi-rual with increasing urbanization. (sounds like it would be remote to me)…because Tropicgardener writes that “A.C. Illawarra’ comes from the very southern range of their existence in coastal southern New South Whales”… looking at the map I would gather anywhere north of Shoalhaven to Gerroa up to Kiama is southern coastal New South Whales. I think it is best for us to ask Tropicgardener to defind the perimeter of land that would best describe the Illawarra King Palm’s “very southern range of their existence”.

[Frond of Palms]

I have thirty mature Illawara in my landscape and ten mature standard cunninghamiana along with many young ones and the Illawara are all slightly less cold hardy than the standard king palms. The big diference here is growth speed with the Illawara growing MUCH faster than the standard kings. Growth rings are often more than 12 inches apart on Illawara and closer to six inches on cunninghamiana. I've got A. purpurea, alexadrae, myolensis, and maxima also and, except for purpurea, that are more tender than cunninghamiana by a degree or two.

H Jim,

I will have to get my tape measure out. But what I you have one that has more sun exposer...wouldn't it grow slower setting the growth rings closer?

[Jim in Los Altos]

John, my full sun Illawara palms actually have the greatest length growth rings. I'm in a relatively cool climate though and, in a hot humid climate, what you say would likely be true. My highest summer average temperature is in July and is 80F and coolest daytime high average is in December at 60F. Summer night lows are in the 60s typically. The species is very variable also. I have groves of them where some have really fat trunks and others have skinny ones. Their canopies are all similar however.

[Ben in Norcal]

So far, I notice no difference in growth rate between Illawarra and regular cunninghamiana. Makes me question if I have the real deal...whatever that is.

Jim, noting your comments on hardiness - what has been your experience with purpurea?

[Tropicgardener]

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana actually has a range from west of Townsville in the tropics right down to around to near Batemans Bay in temperate NSW. I think I mentioned earlier in the northern part of its range it only occurs at high elevation................ The form in question 'Illawarra' would occur from roughly Wollongong to Batemans Bay. During my Navy days I lived many years of my younger life in Nowra and visited some of the populations of A. cunninghamiana in that area. I would not call the region or area 'remote' by any means as there are large towns nearby and they are fairly accessible. Good examples can be seen around Minnamurra Falls near Kiama but one thing that stood out to me is that they don't grow in the great groves that you see in the subtropical areas such as the Queensland / New South Wales border area, they are more scattered individuals and small groups.

Generally speaking here in Australia we don't distinguish our Archontophoenix as much as you do in the U.S................. You won't find Archontophoenix cunninghamiana 'Illawarra' sold as a separate variety here. Archontophoenix alexandrae can also be quite variable here but there is generally no distinction based on locality.

[Jim in Los Altos]

So far, I notice no difference in growth rate between Illawarra and regular cunninghamiana. Makes me question if I have the real deal...whatever that is.

Jim, noting your comments on hardiness - what has been your experience with purpurea?

Ben, you might be better off if yours are standard kings. I think they're more solid and deal with cold better as well as dry summer wind than Illawara. My Illawara look decent because they're clustered in groves and insulate each other from dryer summer winds. The few I have that are really exposed, get a bit ratty looking by late summer.

A. purpurea seem to have similar cold hardiness to A. cunninghamiana. I only have one young one that's been in the ground for four years but it has never shown cold or heat stress. It's a slow grower compared to cunninghamiana.

[Ben in Norcal]

That's what I was hoping you'd say. I think my purpurea look better than my cunninghamiana after this winter.

[Jim in Los Altos]

Ben, I wish I had planted a bunch of A. purpurea years ago! I love the plum colored crown shaft.

[Ben in Norcal]

Same! Need to order more from Floribunda this spring!

[Sandy Loam]

I may have to revise what I wrote above on February 10 because this past Thursday night we had the famous artic "Storm Octavia" which pushed cold air deep into Florida, and unusually so. The forecast shows that Gainesville, FL (where I grow my archontophoenix cunninghamiana) received a low temperature that night of 22 degrees Fahrenheit, either breaking or tying the historic record for that date. My property may not have hit that 22 F low temperature, but I will find out for sure and may post an update later. If it did, then it adds another case of archontophoenix cunninghamiana surviving 22 F, albeit a very quick 22 F dip and then into the 50s the next day. When I left a 4:00 am, it was 31 Fahrenheit on that particular night and the sun would have started coming up at 7:00 am, so if the mercury suddenly dropped to 22 F between 4:00 am and 7:00 am, it could not have lasted long. Nonetheless, 22 F is 22 F.

Obviously, I will have too wait a good month to see if my archontophoenix cunninghamiana show any damage, but so far so good.

[Kostas]

John(Frond of Palms), the Archontophoenix you got from the Palm Harbor grower, that have silver leafs undersides and open red, are definitely not cunninghamiana and thus not Illawara either. I would think they are A. alexandrae but they could also be A. maxima or one of the other, less frequently grown silver underside Archontophoenix.