King palm Hardiness

[Sandy Loam]

Hello Frond-of-Palm, I have had the opposite experience of you with shade-grown archontophoenix cunninghamiana (if, indeed, yours are cunninghamiana, in light of Kostas' comment above). My shade-grown ones are slower than my part sun/part shade grown trees of the same species.

[Frond of Palms]

Sandy Loam,

Did your trees receive any damage at 22F at all? Mine got fried (the online auction bought)…the morning of “Storm Octavia” we had approximately 6 ½ hours of freezing temperatures from 1:35am at 32F to a low of 26.8F at 6:50am, and at 8:05am it hit 32.7F…this data is from Underground Weather station in my zip code area 34608. No protection was given to my palms because frost was not expected…It was a very dry cold air mass that came down. I did wet the surrounding soil the previous night because I read a post on PT that it could help by keeping the ground temp. warm.

The one in the first photo which is most exposed suffered the most damage, and it was just to about to open a new frond…the up coming spear has tip damage. Could anyone give me advice on this palm…should I cut all the damaged fronds off, would that help any? I did plan on up rooting this palm to move it under canopy and put a Mule in its place. Would the palm survive transplanting in this state? The second photo shows the other about 20 feet south of the first. It too has severe damage to all the leaflets, but the spears appears to be OK…for now.

[Frond of Palms]

John(Frond of Palms), the Archontophoenix you got from the Palm Harbor grower, that have silver leafs undersides and open red, are definitely not cunninghamiana and thus not Illawara either. I would think they are A. alexandrae but they could also be A. maxima or one of the other, less frequently grown silver underside Archontophoenix.

Hi Kostas,

I thank you for your input…I have provided some photos below for observation and would be happy if anyone can describe this Archontophoenix variety. The color of the opening frond is more copper color then red. Please notice in the last photo of leaflet damage as described from recent freeze conditions stated in my aforementioned post to Sandy loam. These plants have more canopy protection and are close to a fence.

[Kostas]

The best recovery chances they will have if you leave them be, as they are, no leaf cutting and no moving. Once they recover, you *might* think of moving the exposed one but it would be better to plant something where it is rather than move it. Plus, Archontophoenix are so fast and tall growing that any protection will only be temporary, there aren't many faster growing palms and these are even more cold sensitive than Archontophoenix... Evergreen trees seldom are any faster in the long run either.

The temperature they saw is close to their limit and the duration was quite long. The next month will show you the real damages and hopefully its not much more than we see right now and they recover. I do think they will be fine

They seem like shade grown A. alexandrae. Definitely not A. cunninghamiana. A. alexandrae handles better the sun and the wind and is a nicer palm in my eyes. Its also faster to recover from a freeze than A. cunninghamiana but its supposedly a tad less cold hardy. You got some especially nice ones there, opening red. Few do that, one of mine does too. The other very seldom does it and only partially

[Frond of Palms]

The best recovery chances they will have if you leave them be, as they are, no leaf cutting and no moving. Once they recover, you *might* think of moving the exposed one but it would be better to plant something where it is rather than move it. Plus, Archontophoenix are so fast and tall growing that any protection will only be temporary, there aren't many faster growing palms and these are even more cold sensitive than Archontophoenix... Evergreen trees seldom are any faster in the long run either.

The temperature they saw is close to their limit and the duration was quite long. The next month will show you the real damages and hopefully its not much more than we see right now and they recover. I do think they will be fine

They seem like shade grown A. alexandrae. Definitely not A. cunninghamiana. A. alexandrae handles better the sun and the wind and is a nicer palm in my eyes. Its also faster to recover from a freeze than A. cunninghamiana but its supposedly a tad less cold hardy. You got some especially nice ones there, opening red. Few do that, one of mine does too. The other very seldom does it and only partially

Hello Kostas,

Thank you for your advise on my King palms. The one that is most exposed now has fungus growing in between the freeze damage leaflets on the emerging spear and all over the leaflets of the older fronds, and also a few of the older fronds have bent in half as they seem to be in a state of decay, all due to the weather being rainy and warm (upper 70-80's F). Against what you mentioned I cut the rotting fronds off and most of the spear...it will take all summer for this palm to recover. I notice you also had damage to you King Palm in your Pygros thread...wish you good luck in its recovery, keep us posted.

Thank you,

John

[Sandy Loam]

Hello Frond-of-Palms. Sorry, I just found your post now.

No, my archontophoenix cunninghamiana did not suffer any damage during Artic Storm Octavia 3 weeks ago. However, my thermometer memory says that my yard did not get below 28 degrees Fahrenheit (27.7 to be specific). I don't know why www.weatherunderground.com says that Gainesville got as low as 22 degrees on that night of the arctic storm. My archontophoenix cunninghamiana would certainly not suffer any damage at 27.7 degrees anyway.

Three of them have overhead canopy and three of them don't. In the interest of full disclosure, I must confess that I wrapped all of them in blankets that night but the fronds were all sticking out of the top of the blanket. I was only able to cover these trees as high up as the bud because I wanted to cover the trunk also and the blankets were not big enough to cover the fronds too. Yet, even without protection, the fronds appear to be unharmed.

Maybe I need to give you the contact info for the guy in Melbourne, FL who sold me my archontophoenix cunninghamiana. He asserted that they were extra cold-hardy, based on the parent tree in San Diego County, CA. He was calling this variety "archontophoenix cunninghamiana var. Pomelo Drive" because the parent plant resides on Pomelo Drive somewhere in San Diego County. PM me if you are interested.

P.S. Don't transplant your king palm unless it is was just recently planted in the ground. This is a tree that cannot be transplanted once it lays down roots or else it will die.

[_Keith]

It is a solid 9b palm.

[Sandy Loam]

I would argue that mine are a zone 9a palm, but probably not 8b (mine have never been put to the test in 8b conditions, although we do get the high teens once every few years so it is inevitable). I could have sworn that there was a night somewhere in the past where the mercury went down to 22 and my king palms were barely damaged, but the more I think about it, I think I may have been following the weather.com temperature for Gainesville that night in real time (which went down to 22 F as I watched it on my phone) and yet my yard never actually got down that low.

[Tropicdoc]

I'd like to get my hands on a 9a king palm tell me who to contact!

[_Keith]

I'd like to get my hands on a 9a king palm tell me who to contact!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-KING-Palm-COLD-HARDY-Illawara-Variety-LIVE-Palm-Tree-/230412902177?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35a5addf21

But don't stop there, knock yourself (or your checkbook) out. Just scroll along.

http://stores.ebay.com/coconutclimber/

[Kostas]

Hello John,

Sorry to hear you had to cut them. Rainy weather is not the best to have after cold damage as plants are more vulnerable then, but I find that the rotting of dead tissues in areas with good air circulation, is not a problem or a threat to the palm. The dead areas of live leafs in Pyrgos rot fast in this rainy climate but the live areas are not affected. Rotting of dead leafs that are out, exposed and you see them, is not a problem and not likely to move to healthy tissues much. The real problem is rotting of the growing point which is hidden inside the crownshaft. Only this rot you have to fear regarding the leafs, even if all the other partially dead leafs were rotting wherever there was dead tissue, the palm wouldn't be harmed. After the rains, the only thing that remains of dead leaflets hanging from a healthy, green rachis, is usually a few strings of fiber, all the dead tissue is eaten away by fungi in sufficiently rainy climates.

When you see fungi in alarming areas, such as the the base of the spear, use hydrogen peroxide to drench the area, it's better than cutting as even a partially damaged spear will provide some photosynthetic area when it opens. Plus there is not much cutting you can do for fungi further down inside the crownshaft.

Thank you, I hope to see the first open new leaf on both of them as they had long spears last time.

Wish yours fast recovery

-Konstantinos

[Sandy Loam]

Tropicdoc, try:

jeffnew60@yahoo.com

He might still have some king palms for sale from the seed mine were born from. Ask for "archontophoenix cunninghamiana, var. Pomelo Drive".

I recall that he didn't check his email very often, so I can provide the address and phone number also but I don't want to do that through PM. PM me if interested.

Mine are not the "Illawara" type in the ebay link which Keith posted.

It's just a matter of time until my king palms are wiped out by one of those once-every-five-year cold events comes through in the teens. They might even get to be ten years old, but they are probably not a permanent palm in my zone. Every few years, we have a zone 8b winter (although usually it's 9a). They have done fine for me these past few winters, but I don't clearly recall the lowest temperature that they have experienced.

In any case, they look fine now. I don't even need to clip off any damaged fronds this year. My expectation is that they will look a bit damaged by the time March rolls around each year, so you just clip off the bleached-looking segments of the fronds and wait a month or two for new fronds to fill in the gaps. They are planted in a bit of a "jungle" anyway, so the clipped-off fronds won't be noticed.

I can't plant these trees as a centrepiece or lining a driveway anyway because they simply can't be planted out in the open in my climate. It's strictly "in the jungle" and under canopy against a fence. That is how they have survived so far -- and I have wrapped them about once (or twice) a year when a cold snap came through.

[Frond of Palms]

Hello Frond-of-Palms. Sorry, I just found your post now.

No, my archontophoenix cunninghamiana did not suffer any damage during Artic Storm Octavia 3 weeks ago. However, my thermometer memory says that my yard did not get below 28 degrees Fahrenheit (27.7 to be specific). I don't know why www.weatherunderground.com says that Gainesville got as low as 22 degrees on that night of the arctic storm. My archontophoenix cunninghamiana would certainly not suffer any damage at 27.7 degrees anyway.

Three of them have overhead canopy and three of them don't. In the interest of full disclosure, I must confess that I wrapped all of them in blankets that night but the fronds were all sticking out of the top of the blanket. I was only able to cover these trees as high up as the bud because I wanted to cover the trunk also and the blankets were not big enough to cover the fronds too. Yet, even without protection, the fronds appear to be unharmed.

Maybe I need to give you the contact info for the guy in Melbourne, FL who sold me my archontophoenix cunninghamiana. He asserted that they were extra cold-hardy, based on the parent tree in San Diego County, CA. He was calling this variety "archontophoenix cunninghamiana var. Pomelo Drive" because the parent plant resides on Pomelo Drive somewhere in San Diego County. PM me if you are interested.

P.S. Don't transplant your king palm unless it is was just recently planted in the ground. This is a tree that cannot be transplanted once it lays down roots or else it will die.

Hello Sandy Loam,

The one that I want to transplant has been in the ground for about 45 months. The person in Melbourne did he supply you seeds or a plant?

Thank you,

John

[Frond of Palms]

I'd like to get my hands on a 9a king palm tell me who to contact!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-KING-Palm-COLD-HARDY-Illawara-Variety-LIVE-Palm-Tree-/230412902177?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35a5addf21

But don't stop there, knock yourself (or your checkbook) out. Just scroll along.

http://stores.ebay.com/coconutclimber/

It is a solid 9b palm.

Keith,

I'm not sure exactly what I have considering what Kostas opinion is...I may have to try Sandy Loam's contact and get one of those to see the difference.

[Kostas]

Yours are certainly A. alexandrae or another of the silver underside Archontophoenix species(of which the most common is A. alexandrae). There is no chance of them being A. cunninghamiana

With Archontophoenix being as fast growing as they are, i would also not suggest transplanting. You can easily plant another where you want it and leave the established one grow where it is. The problem with transplanting any trunking palm is not only if it lives or not, its that it will lag behind in growth for some years and the ring internodes will become much shorter for some years, ruining the nice trunk architecture and the fast trunk height gain of an established palm that is just starting to trunk in the ground and shoot straight up fast

[Frond of Palms]

Yours are certainly A. alexandrae or another of the silver underside Archontophoenix species(of which the most common is A. alexandrae). There is no chance of them being A. cunninghamiana

Hi Konstantinos,

I certainly do value your opion and I'm greatful for your adice. Can you please describe what distinguishes A. cunninghamiana from alexandrae, and if you have any pictures of A. cunninghamiana I would love to see them.

Thank you,

John

[Kostas]

Hi John,

A. cunninghamiana has concolorous(green) leaflet undersides and ramenta on the midrib of the leaflet undersides(somewhat like a Howea forsteriana leaf) while A. alexandrae has silvery leaflet undersides and no ramenta. I only grow A. alexandrae, i prefer the looks of it and does much better in my climate. A. cunninghamiana here have a reputation for being the dead ones, they hate our summer sun, heat and wind.

Best regards,

-Konstantinos

[Sandy Loam]

Hello Frond-of-Palms. Sorry for lagging behind on these posts. I just found your question now.

The gentleman in Melbourne, FL was selling trees. I think they were either 7 gallon or 15 gallon size. They came with a couple of inches of woody trunk beneath the crownshaft, so not babies. He might have been charging about $40 each, but I can't recall.

One comment -- there are a lot of people on Palmtalk (usually from California) who say not to worry about your King Palms because they grow so quickly and are available everywhere cheap. That has not been my experience in Florida. In fact, I am not aware of any nurseries in Florida off-hand which sell Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana. I don't know why they are not more widespread from Orlando/Tampa southward.

I should also correct one remark that I made earlier. I went out to the yard yesterday and, in fact, one of the Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana had damage on a single frond, presumably from Arctic Storm Octavia 3-4 weeks ago. The frond had that bleached-out look. However, that particular palm is the one (out of my six) that seems to suffer the most damage each winter. It appears to be less cold-hardy than the other five, so there must be variation within the species -- even from the seller in Melbourne whose king palms all come from the same seed/parent tree.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Sandy Loam

[Dave-Vero]

I concur that Archontophoenix are not nearly as available in Florida nurseries as they should be. I have two A. tuckeri trees producing lots of seed, so I expect to keep the Central Florida Palm and Cycad Society's seedbank supplied. To judge from my yard, A. cunninghamiana is less susceptible to leaf damage than A. tuckeri (we fell to about 26º F about five years ago).

[Tropicdoc]

I'd like to get my hands on a 9a king palm tell me who to contact!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-KING-Palm-COLD-HARDY-Illawara-Variety-LIVE-Palm-Tree-/230412902177?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35a5addf21

But don't stop there, knock yourself (or your checkbook) out. Just scroll along.

http://stores.ebay.com/coconutclimber/

I guess you're saying don't believe the hype. That's OK, I have 2 A. Cunningham that are going into my best jungle microclimate with extra lights and wraps for winter. I figure I can get about 10 years out of them. It's worth it..... while I'm still young . I'll save my money for another pipe dream..... cold hardy Bizmarkia

[Sandy Loam]

Hi TropicDoc. If planted in the right location (canopy overhead but lots of light), wouldn't a Bismarckia Nobilis last for a solid 20 years there? There are a few old ones around town in Gainesville, FL (here) and I thought we had pretty much the same climate as you did. By the way, I did have a Bismarckia Nobilis that died from too much shade. That would never happen to an Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana. I have a couple growing fine in full shade. They are not quite as fast growing as the ones in part sun/part shade, but they are growing fast enough for me.

Good luck with your two king palms. If they get big, they will be gorgeous.

[Tropicdoc]

Hi TropicDoc. If planted in the right location (canopy overhead but lots of light), wouldn't a Bismarckia Nobilis last for a solid 20 years there? There are a few old ones around town in Gainesville, FL (here) and I thought we had pretty much the same climate as you did. By the way, I did have a Bismarckia Nobilis that died from too much shade. That would never happen to an Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana. I have a couple growing fine in full shade. They are not quite as fast growing as the ones in part sun/part shade, but they are growing fast enough for me.

Good luck with your two king palms. If they get big, they will be gorgeous.

Check. There is a big Bizzie at Audubon Zoo in New Orleans. Like you said I think I could pull one off under canopy, though they grow better in sun. I'm gonna go with Sabal bermudana for a similar look, albeit not as awe-inspiring. But, I think I can give a king a try.... they like shade. Thank you for the warm wishes. I planted one yesterday and will soon plant the other one. Pics to come in the thread "New house to landscape"

[_Keith]

I'd like to get my hands on a 9a king palm tell me who to contact!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-KING-Palm-COLD-HARDY-Illawara-Variety-LIVE-Palm-Tree-/230412902177?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35a5addf21

But don't stop there, knock yourself (or your checkbook) out. Just scroll along.

http://stores.ebay.com/coconutclimber/

I guess you're saying don't believe the hype. That's OK, I have 2 A. Cunningham that are going into my best jungle microclimate with extra lights and wraps for winter. I figure I can get about 10 years out of them. It's worth it..... while I'm still young . I'll save my money for another pipe dream..... cold hardy Bizmarkia

No, sorry, I was being serious. That is where I got mine, before the freeze of 2010 took it out. A couple of palms in my garden, now good came from them with just 2 or 3 leaves. Specifically because you are young is why I say go for it, as much as your checkbook (or wife) will bear.

[Lou-StAugFL]

We had no cold weather here until the cold spell a few weeks ago. That was the first frost at my house and freeze near the Intracoastal Waterway in St. Augustine. It got down to 29 for a short time and my A. cunninghamiana was untouched. Looks great. Mine is under live oak canopy. Last year was it's first year in the ground and it only put out two fronds. But each frond got progressively larger. Looks much taller than when I planted it.

[Tropicdoc]

I'd like to get my hands on a 9a king palm tell me who to contact!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-KING-Palm-COLD-HARDY-Illawara-Variety-LIVE-Palm-Tree-/230412902177?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35a5addf21

But don't stop there, knock yourself (or your checkbook) out. Just scroll along.

http://stores.ebay.com/coconutclimber/

I guess you're saying don't believe the hype. That's OK, I have 2 A. Cunningham that are going into my best jungle microclimate with extra lights and wraps for winter. I figure I can get about 10 years out of them. It's worth it..... while I'm still young . I'll save my money for another pipe dream..... cold hardy Bizmarkia

No, sorry, I was being serious. That is where I got mine, before the freeze of 2010 took it out. A couple of palms in my garden, now good came from them with just 2 or 3 leaves. Specifically because you are young is why I say go for it, as much as your checkbook (or wife) will bear.

I really thought you were poking fun at me. My 2 A. Cunningham are from Jungle Music, I would think Phil knows his palms and would send me the right thing. I have read on Palmtalk that although Illawara grows better in cool, it is actually less hardy than the species. I can attest that kings grow fast... I had some myolensis that outgrew an 8 foot tall greenhouse from strap leaves in 2 summers.

[Cikas]

My Archontophoenix cunninghamiana after -2°C ( 28°F ) low we had in December 30. I have 7 of them. They are planted directly from greenhouse in November, in the ground. So they are only 4 months in the ground now.

I'am very pleased with them. They have minimal damage, some of them none. Some of them even opened new leaves in January. Bigger and more established/ settled, they should be even more hardy.

Two of them without any damage

Edited March 12, 2015 by Cikas

[Tropicdoc]

Cikas, any canopy?... frost?

[Cikas]

This garden is still new and in development. So I do not have any canopy yet in garden.

[Frond of Palms]

Hello John,

Sorry to hear you had to cut them. Rainy weather is not the best to have after cold damage as plants are more vulnerable then, but I find that the rotting of dead tissues in areas with good air circulation, is not a problem or a threat to the palm. The dead areas of live leafs in Pyrgos rot fast in this rainy climate but the live areas are not affected. Rotting of dead leafs that are out, exposed and you see them, is not a problem and not likely to move to healthy tissues much. The real problem is rotting of the growing point which is hidden inside the crownshaft. Only this rot you have to fear regarding the leafs, even if all the other partially dead leafs were rotting wherever there was dead tissue, the palm wouldn't be harmed. After the rains, the only thing that remains of dead leaflets hanging from a healthy, green rachis, is usually a few strings of fiber, all the dead tissue is eaten away by fungi in sufficiently rainy climates.

When you see fungi in alarming areas, such as the the base of the spear, use hydrogen peroxide to drench the area, it's better than cutting as even a partially damaged spear will provide some photosynthetic area when it opens. Plus there is not much cutting you can do for fungi further down inside the crownshaft.

Thank you, I hope to see the first open new leaf on both of them as they had long spears last time.

Wish yours fast recovery

-Konstantinos

Hello Konstantinos,

Bad news for the most exposed palm. Its dead, the spear pulled yesterday. The larger one is in recovery opening the burnt spear and pushing up a very dark green new one.

I don't think I'll be planting anymore of these.

Thanks for your advice,

John

[Alicehunter2000]

Interesting to read through this thread. Recently my buddy in Crawfordville gave me a bunch of seedlings. I will plant a forest of them and pot plant the rest. Will be interesting to see how long they will last here in a cold 9a.

[Frond of Palms]

Interesting to read through this thread. Recently my buddy in Crawfordville gave me a bunch of seedlings. I will plant a forest of them and pot plant the rest. Will be interesting to see how long they will last here in a cold 9a.

Hi David,

My best advise is to plant them under a canopy. I really had high expectations for these (but I'm not 100% sure that the online purchased plants are true Illawaras...my Triangle palms also got fried also, but both survived and are recovering well.

Good luck,

John

[Jim in Los Altos]

Interesting to read through this thread. Recently my buddy in Crawfordville gave me a bunch of seedlings. I will plant a forest of them and pot plant the rest. Will be interesting to see how long they will last here in a cold 9a.

Hi David,

My best advise is to plant them under a canopy. I really had high expectations for these (but I'm not 100% sure that the online purchased plants are true Illawaras...my Triangle palms also got fried also, but both survived and are recovering well.

Good luck,

John

I have several adult Illawara and several standard cunninghamiana and the Illawara are LESS cold hardy. Their advantage in my climate is their incredibly fast rate of growth in a cool climate compared to standard cunninghamiana.

[Sandy Loam]

Since this thread seems to have come back to life again, I will post a couple of links below which may be of interest regarding the cold-hardiness of Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana.

Below is the PalmTalk thread in which "JeffM" went to Australia and came back with King Palm/Bangalow seed from a high elevation where the trees had been tolerating significant cold dips:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/35620-searching-for-frost-hardy-archontophoenixbungalow-palm/

It is still an experiment in progress because "JeffM" only collected the seed in March 2013.

Here is a link to the PalmTalk thread about the King Palm/Bangalow which has been growing for over a decade in Palatka, Florida:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/36080-east-palatka-florida-archontophoenix-cunninghamiana/

This is significant because Palatka, FL is supposed to be too far north to grow a Bangalow. I am as far north as Palatka too, but colder perhaps because I am 45 minutes to the west. 99.9% of the time, the climate here is fine for Bangalow Palms, except for that one night every five years when a freak Arctic air mass pushes extremely far south. From Orlando, FL southward, Banglows do just fine.

I keep wondering if the experts will eventually decide that there are more than just two types of Archontophoenix Cunninghamia (i.e. Illawara vs. "standard"). People who have observed the Inge Hoffman king palm (and its offspring) say that it looks very different from both the Illawara variety and the "standard" variety. I just found this photo of one of its babies:

https://www.anniesannuals.com/plants/view/?id=4367

The seed was supposedly collected from somewhere in the Atherton Tablelands. We have also seen the photos by the Aussie ratpack of the "shuttlecock" Bangalows which look nothing like the Illawara or "standard" variety - link:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/40262-unleashed-in-urbenville/

...and there could be many more...