Caryota maxima Himalaya

[Alberto]

This is what says a well known seed dealer about the Caryota maxima Himalaya or Himalayan or Mountain Fish Tail Palm:  ???

This Fishtail is frequently seen growing semi-wild in the foothills of the central and eastern Himalayas up to 2400 m (7800 ft) a.s.l. As indicated by its habitat, and by experience from cultivation, it is by far the most cold tolerant Fishtail Palm, guaranteed to stand up happily to cold winters with snow and moderate frosts to -7°C (19°F).

 We had a fairly warm and dry winter this year.There were only a few radiational freezes with temps. of about 2.5 to 4 `C which were  not harmfull to my palms.....But,begin september after a rainy day it freezed again ..... Temperature under the veranda of the house was 0.5´C Temps. in the ´´open´´probably were somewhat colder.

Meteorogy was expecting temps. near 0`C,so I didn´t cover my ´´hardy´´palms. Three nights of radiational freezes with a lot ot ice on the surface of the car,grass and palms of course...,specially the last night!

 Here are some pics of my mountain fishtail palm. Can you imagine if the temp. was dropped below -5`C for example...

 How looks your himalayan fishtail after a winter...???

 My best performing palm:

[Alberto]

Another palm with a new intact spear:

[Alberto]

Palm with a new opened spear (after the freeze)

[Alberto]

This was my tiniest Caryota after the freeze (of course )

[Alberto]

The´himalayas´ look a little bit better than this poor,totally fried Caryota mitis:  !!!

[Zac in NC]

Alberto- I have heard from sources in the Upper South of the US that it hasn't proven to be hardy, as your pictures show. It may be one of the hardier of the Caryotas but I don't think it is as hardy as they gave it credit for. Also the same thing applies to Pandanus furcatus. Maybe they are hardier as adults?

Zac

[Alberto]

I was hoping so much for my himalayas I was the first one who saw there first root,there first leave.... This must be a hardy Caryota.... ???  Hardy to -7`C ,snow..... ???

  Will there hardiness increase  with age????

   Please,do you know?

`` Decepcion´´,thats the word!

[Walter John]

Decepcion's not a word !

[paulgila]

that depends on where you live! :laugh:

[Alberto]

(Wal @ Sep. 22 2006,02:21)

QUOTE

Decepcion's not a word !

Im my dictionary ´´decepção´´means disappointment; dissillusionment;disenchantment;deception,deceit,fraud.

 I intend to say the first 3 meanigs,but the 3 last ones are also not far from my feelings,I see now!

[jam99]

Alberto, I think Wal was just kidding. What he meant was one should never give up ;-)

[Jeff Wilson]

I have one of these Caryota maxima himalayanas; my observation on the palm is that it's not as tough to frost/cold as stated. Mine took damage in a freak February freeze at 28F, albeit completely protected by frost cloth. Palm is young, 3 years from seed, and just under 6' tall (2m.) Took a lot of damage at that temp, and seems slow to recover, while a larger nearby Caryota mitis clump of 3 came back great. Both received significant cosmetic damage to the outer fronds. The only thing I can think of is that the Caryota mitis clump is much bigger, and recovers better due to its size.

[Walter John]

(jam99 @ Sep. 22 2006,22:40)

QUOTE

Alberto, I think Wal was just kidding. What he meant was one should never give up ;-)

That's right, thanks for getting me out of that jam ?

[Alberto]

(Wal @ Sep. 22 2006,15:33)

QUOTE

(jam99 @ Sep. 22 2006,22:40)

QUOTE

Alberto, I think Wal was just kidding. What he meant was one should never give up ;-)

That's right, thanks for getting me out of that jam ?

It´s OK. I wasn´t   at all!!!!    

Portuguese and Spanish are very similar languages (but also has some false cognates!!!)

I made a search : ´´deception word´´and I found this:

False cognate words in spanish and english are called false friends.

False Friends Often Lead to Mistakes

Learning Spanish vocabulary can seem so easy: Constitutición means "constitution," nación means "nation," and decepción means "deception," right?

Not quite. True, most words that end in -ción can be translated into English by changing the suffix to "-tion." And the pattern holds true for the first two words listed above (although constitución refers to how something is constituted more often than does the English word, which usually refers to a political document). But una decepción is a disappointment, not a deception.

Spanish and English have literally thousands of cognates, words that are basically the same in both languages, having the same etymology and similar meanings. But combinations such as decepción and "deception" are so-called false cognates — known more precisely as "false friends" or falsos amigos — word pairs that look like they might mean the same thing but don't. They can be confusing, and if you make the mistake of using them in speech or writing you're likely to be misunderstood.

[Gileno Machado]

Alberto; (em português)...

Plante Caryota gigas e urens. São belas palmeiras e em seu clima não existirá decepção...  ::

PS: não é conselho de falso amigo  

[Alberto]

Será mesmo Gileno? C.Himalayana é para ser uma variedade mais resistente ao frio que C. urens...

De onde você tirou essas informações?

 Thank you Gileno!

[Walt]

Alberto: I planted, what was sold to me as Caryota himalaya two years ago. The first winter this palm was in the ground was relatively mild and my palm incurred no damage. However, this past winter, specifically on Feb. 14th, when my low temperature dropped to at least 27 degreee F (2.75 C) with heavy frost, it was almost totally defoliated.

Further, this palm is not regrowing. Now, more than seven months later, it has only opened ond frond, and most of the leaves have damage.

Just 15 metres away from my C. himalayan I have a Caryota urens that incurred virtually no frost damage on Feb. 14th.

So, unless the palm sold to me is not C. himalayan, I'm not impressed at all with it in terms of cold/frost hardiness.

This palm, until it was damaged this winter, was a fairly fast grower. But since it hasn't hardly grown at all since the freeze seven months ago, I think this palm is a gonner. Almost invariably, when a palm gets cold damaged and it doesn't start normal growth speed by early summer, they usually languish, maybe for years, and then die. I've experienced this condition time and time again with many species of cold tender palms.

[Alan_Tampa]

Walt, it will grow faster in the fall through spring than in the summer.  Just wait.

I bet you will pleased after a few months of cooler nights.

Also -water with abandon.

Alan

[Walt]

Alan: The palm (and leaf detail) in the below photos is what John Bishock sold to me as a Caryota himalayan. Maybe what I have isn't C. himalayan at all (John told me the last time I saw him [after the 2/14 freeze] he might have been mistaken).

Looking at the leaves and comparing them with Alberto's leaves, they look different.

In any event, here's the last photo I took of my caryota prior to the 2/14/06 frost/freeze (the Dypsis lutescens to the right were also fried):

by waltcat100

This photo show closer detail of the leaves. I took both these photos with the intent of posting them here for I.D., and I forgot to do it. I guess now is as good as ever:

by waltcat100

BTW, if this palm does start to regrow with the vigor it once had (prior to the freeze) it will be a first for me. My Caryota mitis, which also got hammered pretty good, have returned to normal growth and look respectable again.

[Gaston in Argentina]

Preziado Alberto.-

I think i have a positive response to you based in some experiences with C. himalayas.- We have very simmilar temperatures, general climate, the same climate fenomena occur here and there but your is by far more humid.- (Here´s a desert lately)

Theres a very dry september and temperatures were middle with none freeze.-

I m growing Caryota himalaya, urens, mitis, gigas.- My himalayans are now big palms of 3,5 - 4 metre palms with a huge trunk.- This specie is the coldest tolerant specie and practicaly the only Caryota specie that grow well, well.-

.-  Will survive in Carambei and will gow fine but protect them from frost when is small.- Tolerance to cold will increase with age but always leaves tips will dammage and the palm will regrow with new longer leaves.-

Himalaya is by far my fastest growing palm. From seeds in 2001 are now monsters.-

Gaston

[DoomsDave]

Alberto!

Looks like you've had a tough winter.

Hmm.  Are you anywhere near where that NASTY freeze took place that killed the coffee trees and p-o'd my coffee-addict mom and dad (I nearly killed 'em . . . . )

dave

[cfkingfish]

Walt-

It looks like you got hold of either one of the largest C. elvis he has, or a C. sarawakensis. Both of these clump but not as aggressively as C. mitis.

[Walt]

Christian: When I visited John earlier this year I told him about my C. himalayan getting severely damaged by the Feb 14th freeze/frost.

John told me that possibly he gave me the wrong palm, etc.  I got that particular palm two years ago from John. I felt it was a fairly fast grower. It has virtually stopped growing now, except for a basal offshoot. Having only opened one frond since the February freeze is not a good sign.

As for Caryota elvis, I got one from John last year, too. It was also frost damaged this past Feb. 14th but has since grown out of it.

[Alan_Tampa]

Walt, does not look like C. maxima Himalayana to me.  Is a shot of mine in April 2003 and Novemeber 2004.  I have to get a more recent shot but these will give you an idea of growth.

Alan

[Alberto]

(Dave from So-Cal @ Sep. 28 2006,00:34)

QUOTE

Alberto!

Looks like you've had a tough winter.

Hmm.  Are you anywhere near where that NASTY freeze took place that killed the coffee trees and p-o'd my coffee-addict mom and dad (I nearly killed 'em . . . . )

dave

Dave,Paraná had a lot of coffee plantages in the past (north,generally frostfree) but they were killed in 1974.     I live south from any coffee plantage. Our climate at 1000m altitude is to cold for coffee!

[Alberto]

(Gaston in Argentina @ Sep. 26 2006,13:06)

QUOTE

Preziado Alberto.-

I think i have a positive response to you based in some experiences with C. himalayas.- We have very simmilar temperatures, general climate, the same climate fenomena occur here and there but your is by far more humid.- (Here´s a desert lately)

Theres a very dry september and temperatures were middle with none freeze.-

I m growing Caryota himalaya, urens, mitis, gigas.- My himalayans are now big palms of 3,5 - 4 metre palms with a huge trunk.- This specie is the coldest tolerant specie and practicaly the only Caryota specie that grow well, well.-

.-  Will survive in Carambei and will gow fine but protect them from frost when is small.- Tolerance to cold will increase with age but always leaves tips will dammage and the palm will regrow with new longer leaves.-

Himalaya is by far my fastest growing palm. From seeds in 2001 are now monsters.-

Gaston

Thank you Gaston for your encouraging words!!

I really hope they will recover fine! I´ll protect them in the following winters....

   Alberto.

[John]

Walt, None of my caryota's burned during the Valetine frost.I only got down to 30deg. Not to worry,I owe you a visit I'll bring you a new one just like Walmart. Might we all be in the same boat. I got my Maxima seed from RPS.They say it goes down to 20degs.,I don't think so! Jeff will posting photos of one of my Caryotas,30ft+ never been pruned.in seed babys growing under it.Took 23degs. in 95/96 and 9 freezes and 7 frosts with a low of 22degs on 1/5/01.Anyone who would like to drop by and look for themselfs feel free

[Walt]

Okay, John, I will be waiting. Let me know the next time you go to Miami, so you can drop by on the way. It's been more than three years since you were here, so things should look more grown.

[Moose]

Walt, None of my caryota's burned during the Valetine frost.I only got down to 30deg. Not to worry,I owe you a visit I'll bring you a new one just like Walmart. Might we all be in the same boat. I got my Maxima seed from RPS.They say it goes down to 20degs.,I don't think so! Jeff will posting photos of one of my Caryotas,30ft+ never been pruned.in seed babys growing under it.Took 23degs. in 95/96 and 9 freezes and 7 frosts with a low of 22degs on 1/5/01.Anyone who would like to drop by and look for themselfs feel free

Mine came from John and is a monster - no problems

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

OK, here's one in Winter Haven, FL. Not sure of the actual low its endured, but the Bartow airport, less than 10 miles away, unofficially recorded 15F, or -9.4C. I'm pretty sure this plant endured lows around 22-23, as well as a long duration freeze. Its located on a rental property and the folks living there reported lows from 19-22 or 23F. For comparison, some of the queen palms nearby had some freeze damage too. This Caryota was nearly 100% defoliated, but roared back when the freezing weather passed. Last winter it had some minor damage from frost, but nothing serious. Today it stands about 4-5 meters tall. I'd love to get some more.

[_Keith]

Keith, that is very encouraging indeed. Any idea what year it was planted?

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Summer 2010, Keith. So it did endure 2 cold winters shortly after planting. I'm pretty amazed, really. It is on the Southeast corner of the house (a warmish spot), but it has no overhead protection at all. You can see the Strelitzia nicholi planted right near the pool enclosure. They froze right to the ground, but the Caryota survived,,,,barely! Keith, I'd also add that it'd probably be 3 times this size if it hadn't been set back so hard by those 2 winters.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

OK, I found out I made a mistake on the planting date, it was summer of 2011, not 2010. So it's only endured one really harsh winter. Sorry folk!

[mallenstp]

I was told in Florida that they only get around 25 feet tall max because of the warm climate. NOT! 12 years later have a 40 plus foot giant I will have to have taken down. On the plus side took 26 degrees with the heaviest frost

I've ever seen here in 2010 with hardly any damage.

[DoomsDave]

Some Caryotas will take SERIOUS cold.

In the winter of 1986-197, we had a freeze so nasty it froze my water pipes in my house. I estimate that it hit somewhere between 21 F and 18 F for at least a week. Nasty.

Across the valley, in Loma Linda, was a large Caryota that suffered severe damage, but recovered fully. Looked like a urens type. It's not always easy to tell how much cold they'll take.

I recall that Huntington Botanical gardens hit 17 F in 2007 and large C. gigas were damaged, don't know if they recovered.

[_Keith]

I'll be trying out my little baby Caryota's cold resistant this year this year. No reprieves.