Beccariophonenix alfredii

[waykoolplantz]

Who can correstly identify the palms in the pic above ??

[JD in the OC]

This plant is going to be a WINNER! For years, people have been looking for a cold hardy coconut palm for Socal and northern Florida, and I think this is it. We have about 400 growing in 3 gals at our nursery and hope to germinate more soon (i just potted some up this morning). Our friend Jason is a lawn/tree maintenance guy and he hates these- he says they are going to take work from him because there will no longer be huge clusters of coconuts to remove from customers' yards. Tough luck...

[gsn]

This plant is going to be a WINNER! For years, people have been looking for a cold hardy coconut palm for Socal and northern Florida, and I think this is it.

JD,

Just curious what temps have these been exposed to and survived?

For a palm to do well in most of northern Florida, it will have to take ocassional temps in the low 20's, maybe high teens? Even here in central Florida we see temps at or below freezing nearly every year.

Edited August 1, 2008 by gsn

[BS Man about Palms]

Looking great Mike!!

[JD in the OC]

I am just going off of the habitat they grow in, which is similar to that of inland Southern California. Whether or not they can take temps into the low 20s or teens, I don't know. I do know they closely resemble coconuts and have about 10-15 degrees more cold tolerance.

I had one in Riverside, CA see temps around 30-31F for 8 hour periods without any damage whatsoever. I would think they could take temps into the high to mid 20's for short periods before burning.

JD

[Walter John]

Hello ladies and gents, I have been speaking to Clayton of Utopia Palms, had a wonderful and informative discussion, and we wish to submit the following for general reading and in support of some of the previous posters and their posts:

Hi All

Just reading through this topic it seems strange on some of the replies especially two of them.

Mike has given you the correct information even though this information was not listed in "palms". This is where Joro obtains some of his material for his herbarim specimens!! As my Collector was up there at the time and took the photos in habitat although I still have to find the Beccariophoenix photos , but it does not really matter as growing in the same area as Mike has listed was a new Ravenea species which by the way is very simular to Ravenea glauca, although this might be one of the last pockets of untouched semi rainforest or should I say open forest this is where Beccariophoenix alfredii still grows in it's natural habitat. This also "could" be what the habitats looked like for the other remaining colonies but now all is left is as how Matt put it "dry savannah" which was described in the palm journals, one must remember that with so much land clearing in Madagascar it is more than likely that these palms were probably all once surrounded by bush land.

There is no reason for Mike to give you the wrong information and if you want to put him down I'm sure he has much better things to do, but having said that I'm sure that there are many others that do want to hear some of the information that is not listed in any books as well its just a shame we have a few negative people on the board.

PS: when looking for the Beccariophoenix photos i found some great habitat photos of from 1996 of Prritchardiopsis.j, Burretiokentias, Lavoxia macrocarpa the large entire leaf Chamberonia etc etc....... If and when I get the chance I will scan them in and list them.

Note from Wal: For those that do not know, Mikey and Clayton are two of the most highly respected and authoritative gentlemen in the field of palms in Australia and indeed the world. There's not much these guys do not know about palm habitats and palm cultivation generally.

[Walter John]

Question: How badly scarred is this place ?

[Matt in SD]

Wal, Mikey, and Clayton,

I hope you weren't referring to my post as "putting Mikey down". As I had said in the post, I read the description in Palms and they never mentioned anything about it coming from a rainforest habitat. I very much appreciate having experts like Clayton and Mikey (and Wal too of course) posting here and I hope my original post was worded in a way that would encourage an elaboration from Mikey rather than any feeling of being insulted.

So that said, I re-read the article in Palms and I'm still very confused about this. The article, in several places makes a big deal out of the (supposed) fact that B alfredii grows in a totally different climatic zone than B madagascariensis. It says the climate of alfredii is a "subhumid temperate climate" with "less than 1500 mm" of precipitation per year and a "dry season lasting about five months". And it says "This new species grows in a completely different phytogeographic zone from the humid rain forest zone associated with B. madagascariensis".

In Mikey's post he said "Compared to the others B.alfredii comes from the rainforest".

Now as you seem to be saying, there is/was another population of B alfredii that is in a rainforest environment? It seems odd to me that the article, which goes to great lengths to describe the sequence of events leading up the discovery, and also highlights the unique climate of alfredii compared to madagascariensis wouldn't mention this, but you guys clearly have more inside info than me, so OK. But Mikey's statement "Compared to the others B.alfredii comes from the rainforest" is still totally confusing to me since it sounds to me like he's implying that B alfredii comes from the rainforest, while B magagascariensis does not come from the rainforest. I don't think this can possibly be true...can it?

I guess even if the habitat at some time was a rainforest or if there are other populations currently living in a rainforest, there is still a very well documented, thriving cummunity of B alfredii thriving in a "subhumid temperate climate" where it is "the dominant species in the gallery forest" and "constitutes the only canopy species." So there's no surprise that they are thriving in full sun in places like Southern California and Florida.

Matt

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

Hi Matt,

In no way was your post insulting to me I gotta say I did miss that one word “open”

All I want to do is give the right info, dude your on the ball as far as the palm world goes It’s just a shame as far as the habitat goes that many trees have been felled over the years so it’s not a wonder that people have only seen the article in “Palms”

and don’t really know what was there before hand (as for most of Madagascar).

I guess rainforest was a bad choice of words esp for someone like yourself so I think say the words “Open forest” would be more appropriate to use, And yes they can grow in the full sun, but don’t forget they are an emergent palm and look very different under shade conditions. Keep up the good work Matt you’re a great asset to everyone that’s keen on learning and furthering there knowledge when it comes to information as far as growing and sharing etc. Hey Matt I wonder out of this B.alfredii and , B.madasgascarensis what would be the most cold tolerant of the two, now that would be interesting to see, whats your view Matt.

Cheers Mikey……

[Walter John]

I know why Mikey's being nice to everyone now, NZ retains the bledisloe.

[Wai`anae Steve]

I know why Mikey's being nice to everyone now, NZ retains the bledisloe.

Had to Google "bledisloe" to figure out what the heck you were talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rafiki]

I often wonder if the area where that photo was taken was once forest of some kind, and that it has been cleared by man/fire and the palms are just remnants.

Daryl

Daryl...I suppose it depends how many hundreds or thousands of years back in history one goes. It is unlikely that man was reponsible for forest clearing in Manalazina as the authors of "A New Species of Beccariophoenix from the High Plateau of Madagascar" (B. alfredii) state, quote: The area has one of the lowest densities of human populations in Madagascar...unquote. Current vegetation is described as 'scrubby savannah'. Fire however.. could play a role. There is still much debate among Malagasy scientists and scientists all over the world regarding the extent of plateau forest clearing in the past and present. That gallery forest along stream beds in the drier zones was much more extensive in the past is a fact...and that some of the savannah zones are a natural occurence. For further reading try and obtain "The Natural History of Madagascar" edited by Goodman & Benstead (Univ. of Chicago/London Press) 2003. An extraordinarily useful book.

Am amused by the term 'putting me down because I disagree' suggestion! This implies some degree of infallibility on the assertors side! Like most of us, I have palm disagreements from time to time with many in the palm world...but we have always remained friends. It is our democratic right to express personal opinion wherever possible in the least offensive terms...and point out known facts from speculation. Eh?

Cheers! Bill.

[Dypsisdean]

Am amused by the term 'putting me down because I disagree' suggestion! This implies some degree of infallibility on the assertors side! Like most of us, I have palm disagreements from time to time with many in the palm world...but we have always remained friends. It is our democratic right to express personal opinion wherever possible in the least offensive terms...and point out known facts from speculation. Eh?

Cheers! Bill.

I'm with Bill. If we are going to lose friends because of differing opinions, then the palms of madagascar are going to leave us all friendless.

[Tyrone]

This is just an observation I had growing B alfredii from seed. They germinated easily, but when I put them into my tunnel which is at times equatorial in there (ie 32C 80% humidity) they just dropped like flies. I lost a lot due to the too tropical conditions. These conditions didn't bother my B sp windows who lapped those condtions up. My B madagascariensis never went in there, so I never found out how they performed in the hot humid conditions, as they've always been outside taking the weather as it is, growing without a hitch, winter through summer.

So I would conclude that what B alfredii wants, is moist soil that dries out a bit on the surface from time to time, less humidity than tropical, and although they will take a lot of heat that can be on the dry side without a problem, they need to cool off a bit at night. My youngsters are out in full weather at the moment, getting rained and hailed on, and they don't even notice it.

The next lot of seed I get in will be given less than tropical conditions, as I'll retain more seedlings that way. I'm glad this species performs like this, because I'm sure B alfredii doesn't notice that it's not in Madagascar in my climate.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Walter John]

Am amused by the term 'putting me down because I disagree' suggestion! This implies some degree of infallibility on the assertors side! Like most of us, I have palm disagreements from time to time with many in the palm world...but we have always remained friends. It is our democratic right to express personal opinion wherever possible in the least offensive terms...and point out known facts from speculation. Eh?

Cheers! Bill.

I'm with Bill. If we are going to lose friends because of differing opinions, then the palms of madagascar are going to leave us all friendless.

I'm with stupid here on the right.......

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

Hi all,

What’s got me is if you want to Quote someone Quote the lot, all I want to show is the area these babies come from (post 22) Yet in post 28 I was quoted (with pic removed) and another one put in there, to be taken totally out of context doesn’t help when all I’m trying to do is show what wasn’t put in the article you have all read from “Palms” and to do such a thing I find misleading for those wanting to learn more.

BTW I’m still searching for that Habitat photo for you all to see.

Regards, Mikey.

[Tyrone]

I look forward to that picture Mikey.

I don't doubt that there is probably another area in a more wooded place where B alfredii and that Ravenea you showed would live happily together. I think B alfredii will take growing in a thicker bushier shadier habitat than what was mentioned in Palms. The good thing about B alfredii is it will handle dry heat with almost fullsun as a youngster, which is great for my climate.

One day you'll look at my place on Google Earth and be able to make out all of these coconut looking crowns, just like they show up in habitat. I want to line my front courtyard in them.

Best regards

Tyrone

[gsn]

Hi all,

What’s got me is if you want to Quote someone Quote the lot, all I want to show is the area these babies come from (post 22) Yet in post 28 I was quoted (with pic removed) and another one put in there, to be taken totally out of context doesn’t help when all I’m trying to do is show what wasn’t put in the article you have all read from “Palms” and to do such a thing I find misleading for those wanting to learn more.

BTW I’m still searching for that Habitat photo for you all to see.

Regards, Mikey.

Mike,

Since you picked out my post I will respond. I have quoted people on this new forum software with pics in the quote,sometimes the pics show up in the quotes,sometimes they don't.

I quoted the entire post ,your pic of the Ravenea (sp) didn't come up with the quote.

Having said that, I still would have used the savanah pic in the same post also, to make my comment in conjuction with your quote including the pic .

I used your post with the Ravenea (sp) pic because you modified your remarks in it to OPEN rainforest ,rather than rain forest,giving you the benfit of the correction.

Bottom line is if the the pic in post 22 had been of a Beccariophonenix alfredii, rather than of the Ravenea (sp),there would have been absolutely no reason for me to make my post, as you would have evidence of your assertion. I have never been to Madagascar, and have no idea of the habitat of Beccariophonenix alfredii other the the pics posted here, and the Palms article,and those pics did not indicate open rainforest. They very well could also grow in the enviroment you claim,but the evidence I have seen so far does not support that.

What was the term that was used, "putting you down" ,well on that one, if that was your take, I guess we are even!

[Central Floridave]

*Warning this thread is almost a year old *****

I found this thread with a google search of "Beccariophonenix alfredii". thanks for the info. I just picked one up and planted it out on the easement where it will be a dry full sun savannah for 5 months of the year! i.e. typical spring time Central Florida drought

My window-pane variety is planted under my oak canopy where I can water it easier. Two different environments for obviously two different types of palms.

Thanks to this forum I learn something every day!

[Ryland]

I'm very excited about this palm. It is a very attractive palm and its similarities to the coconut are striking. It's great to have such a palm capable of growing in California.

[Tassie_Troy1971]

Here you go...

Copyright 'Palms'

WOW Daryl ----they are an awesome imitation cocos ! Hope my little one keeps plugging away ! the Beccariophienix i mean

[Moose]

Great Palm! Mine does not have a single blemish on it from this unusual winter in South Florida. It appears that it is a great candidate for the California weather.

[Moose]

Here is mine, photo taken this morning.

[mike-coral gables]

going try my luck in mt dora, fl, Z9B, warm lakefront microclimate, mostly sunny location with some protection form native sabals

[mike-coral gables]

another view

[DoomsDave]

B. alfredii likes so Cal, for sure.

I've got four in the ground and they're moving well, though barn-burningly fast. They seem to be picking up speed with size, and none of this discoloration or burning nonsense in the winter. I water mine about once a week on the average. A pic should follow. . .

I've got babies in pots, too for the PSSC auction.

Regular windo types, do not grow here at all. No window grows, but slow.