Have I solved the location of the famous "White Stem"

[Gtlevine]

While posting photos of Big Curly and Robust in the Dransfield visits Hawaii topic section, I came across a photo of a lone palm in a burial ground down in south Madagascar. We were told not to go into the burial ground so I took this picture of one lone palm near the entrance of the site. I forgot about this palm and never looked at the photo until just now. It is a dead ringer for the Dypsis "White Stem" in Mardy's Garden. Tell me I'm wrong, but I think this is White Stem, and where there is one, there are usually more.

Gary

[Jeff Searle]

Gary,

IMO, I have several palms that look like this. One of maybe 10-12 different species. Some with white stems, some with green,etc,etc. Show us a pic. of the flower......

Don't tell us, you brought back tons of seedlings of this $50,000 palm,right?

Jeff

[Gtlevine]

Yes Jeff, but the location I found this is what is interesting. I found it north 10 miles from Ft Dauphin on the west side away from the coast. This is the location described by Doc Darian. Second, The only palms in the whole area were various versions of Dypsis Robust/Big Curly as I described in the post where JD visits Hawaii. So right there we can rule out a whole variety of north rainforest palms. The problem with Dypsis is there are lots of similar palms at small sizes as you have said, I also have many similar. But this palm is a clone for White Stem and found all by itself in the described location. Of course we can't know since nobody but Mardy has ever seen a mature specimen let alone one in flower, but I think this is probably it so maybe it is not extinct. I wish I had brought back seed, but this juvenile was the only one of it's kind in the area.

Gary

Edited August 2, 2008 by Gtlevine

[Dypsisdean]

I wish you were right Gary, but you tell me if you think this 'White Stem' looks like your pic.

[Gtlevine]

I wish you were right Gary, but you tell me if you think this 'White Stem' looks like your pic.

Dean, the palms in Mardy's garden are identical to the one I posted. The palm you are showing is Jeff Breusseau's palm in full sun, hence the compact look. Len and Bill have seen the ones in the shady location in Docs garden and in the poolhouse so they should know what I am saying. Also Dean, read my reply to Jeff S.

Gary

[BS Man about Palms]

I dunno Gary. I would like to say it is, but it looks a lot different than Jeffs full sun one. (shown here)

Like I said, maybe you can get and post a pic of Mardys shade grown one.

[Gtlevine]

Bill, compare apples to apples, do you remember Doc's from his poolhouse? Identical to my photo.

Gary

[Dypsisdean]

Here they are, side by side.

[BS Man about Palms]

I will say this, this old pic of Mardys place show the "White Stem" and I think "Big Curly" in the sun, and its easy to see they are two different palms.

What I don't see on your pic Gary, and I can't remember from my my one viewing, is, does it have the "rearward slant"? Its very noticeable on the sun version, does it (Mardys) still have that orientation in the shade?

[BS Man about Palms]

Its funny, I see more of the "White Stem" characteristic on the older, bluish leaf on the lower left. (on Gary's first posted pic)

[Gtlevine]

I visit Mardy's all the time and the palm I have pictured is identical to the palms in Mardy's shaded garden spot and his poolroom. Deans comparison and your comments unfortunately refer to a juvenile White Stem in Jeff Breusseau's garden that is getting toasted in full sun, so comparisons are futile between the two. For this discussion, I will need to have Doc let me take a picture of his palm in the shade and the one in his poolroom.

Gary

[Dypsisdean]

Gary,

I always identified 'White Stem' by its wide overlapping leaflets with no drooping tips, and that exaggerated "plumose overlapping" further down the petiole. This was the case with the ones I used to have growing in my shaded greenhouse and Jeff B's in the ground.

If Mardy's look like that with thin leaflets and drooping tips, and becoming sparser down the petiole, then I would have to question Mardy's ID.

[Gtlevine]

I will say this, this old pic of Mardys place show the "White Stem" and I think "Big Curly" in the sun, and its easy to see they are two different palms.

What I don't see on your pic Gary, and I can't remember from my my one viewing, is, does it have the "rearward slant"? Its very noticeable on the sun version, does it (Mardys) still have that orientation in the shade?

Bill, the answer is no. The leaf orientation in the poolhouse White Stem is the same as my photo. The full sun versions are tighter, thicker leafed and more compact with the orientation slightly back.

Gary

[Gtlevine]

Gary,

I always identified 'White Stem' by its wide overlapping leaflets with no drooping tips, and that exaggerated "plumose overlapping" further down the petiole. This was the case with the ones I used to have growing in my shaded greenhouse and Jeff B's in the ground.

If Mardy's look like that with thin leaflets and drooping tips, and becoming sparser down the petiole, then I would have to question Mardy's ID.

Dean, if that is the case, then Mardy has no White Stems left. All four of his are shaded and all are like the one I posted the photo of. Sorry I don't have a photo of Mardy's, I will ask him if I can take one next time over to clear up this debate.

Gary

[Dypsisdean]

Gary,

Last time I was at Mardy's, quite a while ago, he had one along side his driveway on the right going in. I think I may even remember two on that side, but one for sure. Are you saying that one, and the one in Bill's pic by the Big Curly are dead?

If that's the case, there were quite a few of those palms that didn't make it outdoors in SoCal. And Jeff's looks like it wouldn't take too much more to do it in as well. If I were him I would dig that up with a huge root ball and find a toasty greenhouse for it.

I always thought this pic of you was a possible candidate. It kinda has that "rearward slant" that Bill mentioned, with fairly wide leaflets persisting far down the petiole, and no drooping leaf tips as in a lot of the other big Dypsis.

[Gtlevine]

Since I never have seen a large White Stem Dean, I actually thought that may have been one also. But from talking with Mardy, that one you postted next to me does not match the description. For one thing, it has enormous leaves and a fat trunk, Doc says White stem has only six inch trunk and is a much smaller palm. That palm looks a little closer to Dypsis Bejofa.

You are correct, Mardy's died in that photo. Doc only has two left in the ground outside, one in a pot in his greenhouse, and his large one in the poolroom. Four palms left for Mardy, one in Breusseaus yard and one in Ron Lawyers greenhouse. So unless someone else has one somewhere, there are only six left. Oh, there is now at least one in South Madagascar.

Gary

Edited August 2, 2008 by Gtlevine

[LJG]

Hmmmm. That is a tough one. I have seen the pool house one a few times and it does look very similar to what Gary posted. The one thing I noticed about these plants outside and grown under cover is they look pretty different. In my opinion they look way cooler in full sun. Kind of like a Lanceolata looks better in full sun.

[Matt in SD]

OK I have something that I think may be interesting related to this topic. I was just at Gary's and standing next to his Dypsis "prestoniana" and you could see the transformation this palm has been undergoing as it has gotten larger, and gotten more sun. Honestly, looking at the most recent leaf, I don't see any difference between this palm and Dypsis "white stem". It has the leaf twist, it has the fat and round leaflets, the leaflets are vee'd and plumose towards the bottom of the petiole and flatten out as you move towards the leaf tip, and several leaflets are pointing backwards (not all of them yet, but several on the most recent leaf).

Maybe Gary can post a more recent photo, but here is his prestoniana.

Compare this to the photo above from Mardy's garden with the white stem on the left (post #9). Can someone tell me if they see any difference between the prestoniana in Gary's garden and the white stem in Mardy's garden?

Matt

[BS Man about Palms]

Matt- No disrespect here, but have you seen Jeff Brusseau's "White Stem" yet? I haven't seen Prestoniana look like a full Sun White Stem yet. Plus Dean and others might be able to correct me, but it is appearing the Prestoniana appears to grow pretty fast once it "gets going" I haven't heard that the White Stems move very fast.

At this point I think Prestoniana and Big Curly are the closest "relatives"

[Matt in SD]

Hey Bill,

Disrespect taken I've seen Jeff's white stem. I always thought that it looked nothing like any other palm I'd seen. But Gary's prestoniana that's in the ground, and getting some sun is looking more and more like Jeff's plant. I wish I could see and feel Jeff's plant again because it does look a bit "thicker" in texture than "prestoniana". But again everyone keeps going back to Jeff's plant, which does not look exactly like Mardy's plant in your photo, or the one in his poolhouse (according to Gary).

I agree with you that big curly and prestoniana are related (and also close to robusta). And if the current palm being called "prestoniana" is the real deal, then it can't be "white stem" because it does not match Mardy's description of white stem. But this would not be the first time something came in as Dypsis prestoniana and turned out to be something else.

This is going nowhere.

Matt

[Dypsisdean]

All I can say is that I grew two White Stems for 3-4 years up to 5 gals before planting them in the ground. I am also now growing the D. prestoniana up to 5 gals.

These two species, at least through this stage of their lives, did not resemble one another. The true test will be if Gary's plant lives. If it does, and holds more than one or two green leaves, then chances are it's not White Stem.

[Dypsisdean]

Can someone tell me if they see any difference between the prestoniana in Gary's garden and the white stem in Mardy's garden?

Matt

Matt,

I think the difference, and IMO the most noticeable feature of White Stem, is the wide leaflets. Again IMO, of the six White Stems I have seen (except apparently for Mardy's pool room WS), they have had wider leaflets at all stages of growth than any of the other Dypsis of this type.

[Matt in SD]

I figured you would know Dean. Gary's plant is really starting to look like white stem, but it sounds like they are very clearly different when smaller. Sort of like Dypsis "bef" ("slick willy") and onilahensis (I'm still backing you up on this one!). I also agree...if it lives, then it's not white stem. Still would like to see a photo from Gary of the newest leaf on the larger plant. It's pretty cool.

Matt

[Gtlevine]

All I can say is that I grew two White Stems for 3-4 years up to 5 gals before planting them in the ground. I am also now growing the D. prestoniana up to 5 gals.

These two species, at least through this stage of their lives, did not resemble one another. The true test will be if Gary's plant lives. If it does, and holds more than one or two green leaves, then chances are it's not White Stem.

I like that Dean. I hope mine lives and is not a white stem. I like where Matt is heading on this. The photo I posted of the palm in Madagascar is as I say an almost perfect match for all of Mardy's White Stems. This of course does not mean it is a white stem since as Jeff Searle says, lots of Dypsis look similar. My question about whether I found white stem was based on the fact that this was one lone seedling in the same location of southeast Madagascar as Mardy told me white stem was from. Now that Matt jumped in about my Prestoniana looking like White Stem, I took a closer look at the new leaf which is not shown in the photo and there is a resemblance with white stem. But this brings me to another possibility. Maybe what we all have as Prestoniana is actually the real Prestoniana and we got the right name on a plant for a change? The palm I photographed in South Madagascar is about 50 miles from St Luce where the original Dypsis Prestoniana was identified and the photo shown in P.O.M. It is reasonable for this seedling to be Prestoniana since 50 miles is not far from the known habitat. Dean, please do a side by side photo of my photo from Madagascar I started this thread with and my Prestoniana and lets take a look.

Gary

[Gtlevine]

Here is a closeup of the leaf. Notice how that point backwards on the left side of the photo.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Gtlevine

[BS Man about Palms]

I'll have to visit in person, of course, but It still doesn't seem to have that TIGHT leaf stacking I see in Jeff's, but I know you're not in full sun either.

[neoflora]

Gary, Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. It does not look like White Stem. Looks more like D. prestoniana. My thoughts!

[Dypsisdean]

Gary,

Is this what you were after?

BTW --- Your last close up shows some nice fat leaflets. Fatter than any of the other big Dypsis. Whether they are fat enough..................???

And another BTW --- I bought my two White Stems from the nicest guy in the IPS in about 1992 or 3. They were nice 5 gal. plants because this guy might be the best grower in the IPS as well. I paid $50 each. If only I could have kept them alive, I could have retired by now. Wait.......I'm already retired.

If you haven't guessed already, that nicest best grower is Louis Hooper.

[Gtlevine]

Looking at them side by side, the wild specimen does not really look like Prestoniana in my garden. So I have no idea what it is, but it looked closest to the white stem in Docs poolroom, which does not say much when it comes to Dypsis. Oh well, I guess we will never really know, Dypsis White Stem will probably go extinct anyway and it will be the palm of legends.

Gary

[Kim]

Clearly this calls for an expedition to Madagascar.

[Geoff]

I have to agree that your palm is definitely NOT the same as Darian's and Brusseau's palm. You will have to see it in person perhaps to see why. The leaflest are nearly twice as wide as on yours, and they are super crowded along the petioles (stacked on top of each other even). The leaves always are pointed laterally, not upright as in the Big Curlys etc. The stem forms early and you don't get that 'shooting leaves out of the ground' effect, either. I have never seen another Dypsis leaf like it. And the underside of the leaflets are a dusky blue (powder bloom on them). It is a really stocky palm and looks like it's gonna be a real monster.