Mystery Dypsis Species - Have You Seen This Palm Before?

[Palmarum]

I was over at Jeff Searle's house this past Sunday photographing a paintball match, when he mentioned this very nice Dypsis species was due to have some fresh seed in the near future. It is unfortunate, but this palm doesn't have a name. He would like to be able to apply a name to the numerous seedlings that will be arriving soon. He therefore asked me to post photos of the palm in the hopes that someone, Dypsis addict or other, could possibly identify it. We know it is in the D. psammophila alliance with other similar species but are just not sure which one it is.

- The palm in question, shown overall with a clay pot nearby for scale. The pot is about 14 inches (36cm) in diameter. I am not sure if the palm is clustering or a mulitple, Jeff could answer that one.

- An upclose view of the crown, with a pair of cutters for scale this time. The stems are about 2 inches (5cm) in diameter and are heavily ringed. The newest internodes are covered in a white wax along with parts of the newer leaf bases. The white wax is contrasted with the darkened coloration of the crownshaft. The immature infructescence on the left is one of the palm's first full attempts at producing seed. The mature fruit color is unknown at the moment, probably red or purple.

Ryan

[Palmarum]

- The open inflorescence on the right was bursting with flowers. It is just about at anthesis. It is branched to 1-2 orders and the flowers are large for the rachillae they are on.

- I should get another photo of the mature seed, when they are fully ripe. I would also measure them and get some up close photos of the seed. Someone out there should recognize this species.

- Another view of the stems and crowns.

Ryan

[Tyrone]

What makes you think it's not psammophila?

regards

Tyrone

[palmazon]

Or Psammydavisjr?

[Tyrone]

LOL

[rafiki]

Ho Ryan and Jeff! The leaves and inflorescences are much like Dypsis arenarum. Very similar to the ones I have here. D. psammophila has finer and more numerous leaflets and the inflorescence has also more slender floral rachillae.

So...even money on D. arenarum!

Cheers! Bill.

[Walter John]

  palmazon said:

Or Psammydavisjr?

[Tyrone]

Bill, I didn't know that D arenarum has such thin stems. I'm not saying it doesn't. I've got two seedlings of this species and it's great to know what it will look like.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Jeff Searle]

Ryan,

Thanks for the superb pictures.

After looking at these pictures of my own plants, then comparing to the D. psammophila growing only maybe 25' away, I want to say this palm in the pictures is different from the D. psammophila's growing in the yard. I'm not sure if this is because it gets more shade during the day than the D. psamm. Both species mentioned are flowering now and both seem to be interfoliar. What I also notice is the new flower spikes seem to always appear out of the oldest leaf, which then by the time the flower spike has begun to open, the lowest leaf is turning brown and then falls off, giving the appearance that the spikes are now on the bare trunk with all the leaves above it. Which then it appears the palm is infrafoliar.

Bill,

Thanks for your input. I'm just not sure. I read on page 214 in the POM book under 34 Dypsis arenarum, that John states, " This species ( D. arenarum) can easily be confused with D. lutescens,". If so, well this palm in the pictures which looks nothing like D. lutescens can not be D. arenarum. Make sense, what do you think? Thanks!

Jeff

[cfkingfish]

In my humble opinion, I have a feeling it will be Dypsis arenarum. In the shady environment provided, it does look generally like what D. lutescens does in the shade. I am just putting the emphasis on generally. Also habitat and cultivation environments definitely change the visual aspects of most Dypsis species.

What do you think? I was growing hundreds of these before I sold my nursery and I could see them becoming this plant.

[rafiki]

Yes Jeff! I agree with you about the opening para on D. arenarum from John Dransfield. However...continue on to the closing para on p216 where he writes of the differences between arenarum and psammophila. I have both species here also. D. psammophila has more numerous leaflets and finer floral rachillae (latter smaller and shorter here in Cairns).

It is true that D. arenarum can be confused with a young D. lutescens. Pete, Guy Pierrot and I visited the Ambila-Lemaitso littoral sand forest 3 years ago and saw many D. arenarum there that look like poor specimens of D. lutescens but with many fewer leaflets.

Jeff, I agree with you that this a tricky one! But! On the evidence provided by really excellent photos from Ryan...my preference is to stick with D. arenarum...mainly on the larger inflorescence and fewer and broader leaflets.

Tyrone!(always on the ball!)...stem thickness varies according to environment and soil conditions...but you know this already....

Here in NQ the seed from D. arenarum is larger (but smaller than D. lutescens) than from D. psammophila.

Bill.

[John Dransfield]

Sorry it has taken some time to find this thread - I was at a conference last week.

My reaction is that it is probably D. psammophila (BTW, I love psammydavisjr - what a great specific epithet that would be!)

I've just sen llots of psammophila in Hawaii and feel that Jeff's plant probably fits within the variation.

John

[Jeff Searle]

  John Dransfield said:

Sorry it has taken some time to find this thread - I was at a conference last week.

My reaction is that it is probably D. psammophila (BTW, I love psammydavisjr - what a great specific epithet that would be!)

I've just sen llots of psammophila in Hawaii and feel that Jeff's plant probably fits within the variation.

John

John,

Thanks so much for your help and thoughts. I was really hoping it might be something else, perhaps a new undescribed specie.

Jeff

[DoomsDave]

  palmazon said:

Or Psammydavisjr?

Oh, dear god . . . . .

[JD in the OC]

I had initially thought it was Dypsis oreophilla when i saw the palm in person...

[rafiki]

  Jeff Searle said:

  John Dransfield said:

Sorry it has taken some time to find this thread - I was at a conference last week.

My reaction is that it is probably D. psammophila (BTW, I love psammydavisjr - what a great specific epithet that would be!)

I've just sen llots of psammophila in Hawaii and feel that Jeff's plant probably fits within the variation.

John

John,

Thanks so much for your help and thoughts. I was really hoping it might be something else, perhaps a new undescribed specie.

Jeff

Ho Jeff! I offered even money!!! But...do not check with your lawyer too soon and force extraction of $5! Am glad that John said 'probably' and not 'definitely'!!! There is more to come on this thread. As I wrote earlier...this is a tricky one! I can only go by POM data and numerous palms of both species seen in the field. Cheers! Bill.

[Jeff Searle]

Bill,

I know you all too well. I'll be patience on that $5. I'm waiting until the fruit matures, and then cut the seed open. This will tell us a little more information, but I don't know if it will be enough.

Oh, do you have a mature D. arenarum growing at your place, or at someone else's place? I still have not seen a true D. arenarum full size yet.

Jeff

[rafiki]

Jeff...indeed! $5 can be hard to find in my deep pockets!

Will go out tomorrow and photograph what I believe is Dypsis arenarum and post pics to this thread. It has been flowering and seeding for 3 years.

Cheers! Bill.

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

  Jeff Searle said:

Bill,

I know you all too well. I'll be patience on that $5. I'm waiting until the fruit matures, and then cut the seed open. This will tell us a little more information, but I don't know if it will be enough.

Oh, do you have a mature D. arenarum growing at your place, or at someone else's place? I still have not seen a true D. arenarum full size yet.

Jeff

[rafiki]

Jeff! Three pics of my Dypsis arenarum taken today. The palm has 4 stems and 3.5m trunk. Note the rachillae are still to separate from the floral sheath.

My D. psammophila are not in flower at the moment.

Send $5 via Western Union...I will acknowledge receipt on this thread?

Cheers! Bill.

[rafiki]

and the third.....

[Jeff Searle]

Hold on there big guy. I hate to say, but your D. arenarum's look just like D. psammophila, or at least what I have been growing and what others have posted pictures of. So...either some of us don't really have the true D. psamm. or , your's are not really D. arenarum.

Bill, is it possible to take a couple of pics. of your D. psammophila's? So we can compare your two species? Because your palms look just like mine, ( D. psamm.) but with two different names. Unless, these are both really, really close in looks, and have to be identified by their flowers.

Also, I would like to hear from some of the other palm collectors here and hear their opinions as well. Please, the more input, the more we all can learn from.

I'm waiting to drive over to Western Union........

Jeff

[rafiki]

Jeff! The differences between D. psammophila and D. arenarum are quite clear. If you have time, go out and count number of paired leaflets from at least 3 leaves on the palm that opened this thread. D. arenarum has c. 30 and psammophila c. 40. Then check the flowering. D. arenarum has far more flowering branches than psammophila...roughly twice as many and the peduncle and rachillae are also much thicker in arenarum. Your palm looks very much like mine and may be from the same source some years ago. My D. psammophila have more slender stems and when flowering the thinner and sparsely branched inflorescences stand out. Check the line drawings in POM of both species inflorescences and you will see what I mean. The seed from psammophila is also smaller than arenarum. I collected the seed myself in Mad on white sand soils...there the palms have thin, jet black stems and quite beautiful! Of course if you plant this species in good soils the stem dimensions may become slightly thicker and the palms grow quite tall.

Re photos of psammophila...mine do not flower at this time of year here...but will add some general pics later today.

I have put Western Union on hold!

Cheers! Bill.

[rafiki]

Jeff! If you are still there?...attached stems of D. psammophila...8 in one group... then looking up into foliage.

Cheers! Bill.

[Dypsisdean]

Bill,

What's with all the desciptions of D. psam. having black trunks?

[rafiki]

  Dypsisdean said:

Bill,

What's with all the desciptions of D. psam. having black trunks?

Much the same as golden cane palms growing in good soils not being golden! All the D. psammophila I (we) have seen in habitat have dark to black cane-like trunks. Like D. lutescens and D. arenarum, which are also found on white sand soils often with pale green to yellow leaves...grow them out of natural habitat and much changes. The D. psammophila illustrated did have black stems until I made a serious mistake and heavily fertilised them, now looking a tad paler!!!! If you have any of this species in ground ...try it or plant them in nutrient deficient soil.

Cheers! Bill.

[Jeff Searle]

Bill,

With so much rain this week, I have not had the chance to go out and look around and compare. From your pictures, I just can't get a good look. I wish some others would express their thoughts, but I think there's just very few D. arenarum and D. psammophila's around.

Jeff

[Moose]

Was the ID on this palm ever resolved?

[Mandrew968]

  On 8/16/2008 at 12:47 PM, John Dransfield said:

Sorry it has taken some time to find this thread - I was at a conference last week.

My reaction is that it is probably D. psammophila (BTW, I love psammydavisjr - what a great specific epithet that would be!)

I've just sen llots of psammophila in Hawaii and feel that Jeff's plant probably fits within the variation.

John

I would take this post to the bank.