Indoor Palm help

[palmsrgreat]

Well over the past few years or so I've tried unsuccessfully to keep any palms indoors. The outcome is always the same...bud rot and spear pulls. In te past year I've lost a majesty, teddy/tri hybrid and a C. tepejilote. I try not to overwater and my house temps stay around 72-79F.

I'm at the point of giving up on growing indoors. These plants receive occasional sunlight through the window but I'm afraid the lack of humidity may be a problrm. For this reason I try and get them outside for a few hours or so once a month.

Any thoughts on this or other species to try indoors before I throw in the towel?

[tjwalters]

Well over the past few years or so I've tried unsuccessfully to keep any palms indoors. The outcome is always the same...bud rot and spear pulls. In te past year I've lost a majesty, teddy/tri hybrid and a C. tepejilote. I try not to overwater and my house temps stay around 72-79F.

I'm at the point of giving up on growing indoors. These plants receive occasional sunlight through the window but I'm afraid the lack of humidity may be a problrm. For this reason I try and get them outside for a few hours or so once a month.

Any thoughts on this or other species to try indoors before I throw in the towel?

Try Chamaedorea metallica or Howea forsteriana. Both are fairly easy and supposedly tolerant of low light.

[palmcurry]

I have seen the above in a few offices as well as Chamaedorea seifritzii and various Caryota species. The lady who maintained them said each plant has to eventualy be switched out and put back out doors for awhile.

[Tala]

Howea forsteriana, Chambeyronia macrocarpa, Geonoma schottiana, Kentiopsis oliviformis, Lytocaryum weddellianum all grow fine for me indoors, also trialing Kerriodoxa for this, so far so good. Occasionally (like once every few months) I'll take'em outside and hose'em off some. Have heard that Licuala peltata var. sumawongi (old name think its L.elegans now) does well too. Any Chamaedorea will work provided you up the humidity some (keeps spider mites at bay), but that sorta defeats the indoor purpose. There are others that require a bit of work: Areca triandra, Pinanga kuhlii, some of the tropical Livistona but again (lack of) humidity is a detriment to them. Buy small and hose'em down, then when they get too big to drag around plant'em outside.

[JakeK]

Hi Michael,

Currently I am growing 26 species indoors even now during the summer because my deck can heat up to over 140F with it's southern exposure over a black shingle roof below it. A lack of humidity doesn't stop my tropical species from growing, but it does slow them down. I have found that when growing palms indoors you must keep the moisture to an absolute minimum. After I water and let the excess water drain away i always set the pots on a wicking material to pull even more water out of the pots. I have found that the soil needs to be just slightly damp for the palms to thrive indoors. I have zero issues with pests like spider mites or scale on my palms, so I have no advice for keeping those critters at bay. Also, too strong of airflow can dry out the foliage very quickly if you keep the moisture to a minimum so be careful about the placements of fans and such. I've been growing palms indoors for 4 years now and rarely lose one while it is indoors.

[Tala]

yes thanks Jake, I thought about going back to add this. Ohio huh, nice, good for you. I wish I knew about palms when I lived up north. Indoor palms are almost always babied to death. You want indoor palms to grow slow (and they want to grow slow), lack of light also a big factor in this. I water mine about once a month, enough to moisten the soil thoroughly, and thats it; no excess at the bottom. Lots of perlite for quick drainage. Cold damp soil is the quickest way to rot the roots.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Tala

[palmsrgreat]

Thanks for the good advice and species recommendations everyone.

Jake, thanks for discussing the moisture issue. After reviewing your watering style, I may have been a bit heavy on it.

My other concern is the lack of humidity. The air conditioner runs quite often and sucks any moisture quickly out of the air.

I have a nice 5 gal. K. oliviformis that I would consider bringing inside, but it has been outdoors for over a year. Do you think the sudden lack of humidity would do it in?

Tala, thanks for the list, rather than give up I'm now determined to make this work trying even more species. We'll see how I do.

[JakeK]

Thanks for the good advice and species recommendations everyone.

Jake, thanks for discussing the moisture issue. After reviewing your watering style, I may have been a bit heavy on it.

My other concern is the lack of humidity. The air conditioner runs quite often and sucks any moisture quickly out of the air.

I have a nice 5 gal. K. oliviformis that I would consider bringing inside, but it has been outdoors for over a year. Do you think the sudden lack of humidity would do it in?

Tala, thanks for the list, rather than give up I'm now determined to make this work trying even more species. We'll see how I do.

I shuffle my palms in and out all the time. Inside during the Summer my air conditioner runs frequently while I am at home and the palms don't seem to mind it that much (low humidity), but my air conditioner is a wall unit, not central, so the palms don't have the airflow on them.

You could begin acclimatizing the Oliviformis to indoor life as Autumn approaches, this way you won't lose it over the winter. I do this with the 4 palms at my parents house that spend the winter in the cool and relatively dark basement. I would say they are all at least 5 gallon palms too which I think helps, being larger and all.

[simona]

Also, Areca lutescens (Chrysalidocarpus), Phoenix ( canariensis & roebelenii), Rhapis (excelsa & subtilis) can be grown indoors, even Chamaerops humilis if it gets about 3 hours of direct sunlight daily.

[palmmermaid]

I am trying more and more plants indoors. I put a clear plastic saucer with a half inch layer of aquarioum gravel underneath the pot. Seems to provide a little more humidity. I have a large spath that I use as my reminder to water. When it wilts, I water everything indoors. The water runs out and into the saucer and stays there for a few days, usually about a week. So far, so good. I am putting a Pinanga coronata indoors next week - a 7 or 10 gallon one. I will put it by a window and see what happens.

I did read somewhere that you can put a layer of builder sand on top of the pots - about 1" - to keep the spider mites at bay. Something about the sand keeps them from getting into the soil.

[sonoranfans]

I have grown a number of palms indoors in some of the lowest humidity possible(AZ). IF you are worried about the effects of low humidity, start with some anti transpirant like "cloud cover". Its a thin polymer coating that you spray on the fronds. This coating dramatically reduces the water loss through the leaves, allowing for less frequent watering and reduced leaflet dessication. I have grown a number of palms this way indoors from young ages(strap leaf seedlings), where the roots do not take up that much water. If you live in a humid enviornment(like cincinatti, my family came from there), dryness will only be a problem when you get low winter temps and have to heat the inside air. The house heater will heat up the intake air and make it very dry in a %RH sense. Summertime %RH indoors will be higher than it is outdoors, in winter its the reverse. I have a nice adonidia merilli triple with 6 fronds plus one spear per trunk grown indoors, and the anti transpirant treatment notably increased the number of fronds held and reduced the dessication of leaflets dramatically. Aside from that I use potting soil with up to 80% miracle grow moisture control potting soil, it seems to really hold moisture.

[gsn]

Summertime %RH indoors will be higher than it is outdoors, in winter its the reverse.

Funny I live central Florida which is noted for pretty high humidity durning the summer months May thru September.

And the humidity inside the house is way,way, lower durning the summer than it is OUTSIDE!

I think Kitty's idea of gravel to increase humidity makes alot of sense!

Edited August 14, 2008 by gsn

[MattyB]

Michael,

If you killed C. tepijilote then there's something wrong culturally. Try a lighter mix.

[palmsrgreat]

Matt,

I think you may be right. I used a lot of #3 Pharok perlite (lrg chunks) but I think some pine chips created a pile of muck at the bottom.

It completely defoliated and the newest frond went limp and was hanging. I put it outside under my shade cloth about a two months ago and checked it yesterday. It seems like there is another spear trying to push out of the side. It must be tough...thanks for the tip.

[Kathryn]

Michael,

You must have a black thumb if you killed a majesty.

[palmsrgreat]

Kathryn,

I would agree with you on that one, haha . My wife actually picked it up for me at IKEA one day b/c they were $4 for a fairly large plant. Once she got it home I ended up removing one of the leaf bases only to discover a large fungal lesion the palm was infected with. I don't know if it had much of a chance to begin with, but I still concur my indoor thumb is black as night.

[sonoranfans]

Summertime %RH indoors will be higher than it is outdoors, in winter its the reverse.

Funny I live central Florida which is noted for pretty high humidity durning the summer months May thru September.

And the humidity inside the house is way,way, lower durning the summer than it is OUTSIDE!

I think Kitty's idea of gravel to increase humidity makes alot of sense!

Your observation is probably because humidity is near saturated(max) outside. The general principle of lowering temp and increasing relative humidity holds, at the dewpoint The RH will be maximum. If you are already near the dewpoint, I expect that humidity could be higher outside as the water removed by the AC will occur at a condenser temp lower than the inside ambient. But then, if the outside air is near the dewpoint, humidity wouldnt be a problem at all inside. I seriously doubt that anyone in florida or houston could attain low humidity air(<50% RH) inside in the summer for long without a dehumidifier. Funny that when I go back to visit new jersey in winter its drier inside there than in arizona INSIDE THE HOUSE, but NOT outside. This is just because much more heat is needed in NJ to attain65-70degrees F living conditions. I could buy that its too dry in winter in houston, but in summer, I seriously doubt that. If that were true, you could water your palms frequently without bud rot. I never get bud rot here on any of my 30 species(>100 palms) and I spray them down all the time( every day on some small ones). Dried out leaflets curl up and the tips brown a bit, its easy to see the signs. And yes I have a majesty multiple, they HATE the dry inside the house.

[gsn]

Won't even try to argue your sceintific points.

I can only tell you that even without a dehumidifier here central Florida the RH outside is way greater ,than the RH inside in the SUMMER.

I don't even need a hygrometer to measure the difference,when you walk outside from being inside, it is not only the HEAT that hits you,you can feel the MOISTURE in the air. So it is definately more humid outside than inside durning the summer months, percentages I have no idea but there is a considerable difference.

[sonoranfans]

Won't even try to argue your sceintific points.

I can only tell you that even without a dehumidifier here central Florida the RH outside is way greater ,than the RH inside in the SUMMER.

I don't even need a hygrometer to measure the difference,when you walk outside from being inside, it is not only the HEAT that hits you,you can feel the MOISTURE in the air. So it is definately more humid outside than inside durning the summer months, percentages I have no idea but there is a considerable difference.

Feeling moisture in the air is a product of your sweating, which is heat induced, and the relative humidity, its not an objective measure of relative humidity as you walk from a hot humid outside to a cooler humid inside, you WILL sweat less. Skin pores and sweat glands contract within seconds of an ambient temperature change, its really quite amazing. When skin temps approach 90F, people sweat to keep cool, its just the bodies thermal control system. I have never observed sweating in ambient temps below 78F. I study this for a living(skin properties), and I only trust hygrometer readings as measurement tools for RH. The bottom line per this thread is, does there exist a hygrometer reading that even suggests that it is too dry inside to grow palms in houston or florida in summer. If I can grow archontos, adonidias or dypsis inside at 40-45% RH in AZ in summer, I seriously doubt florida is getting a lower humidity at the same time. Florida being too dry in the summer indoors sounds almost as unlikely as arizona being too humid indoors for palms in summer. I monitor the humidity of my 3 shadehouses with hygrometers as well as my indoor palms. This time of year I am getting 35-45% RH inside with the AC set at 74F.

[gsn]

sonorafans,

You obviously are correct with your science,so I won't argue the point any further. Except to make one point might there not be a slight difference in your climate and mine re: RH.Y our RH there is much lower than here in the summer I would think, therefore the difference might not be so great between outside and inside there?

But I know that the RH inside my house in the summer is way less than the RH outside with the AC sucking a large percentage of the moisture out of the air in my house (water continually running out the AC drain). Maybe I'm the only house in Florida that experiences this considerable difference in RH inside, but maybe not?

Sorry I don't have a hygrometer to give you precise measurements,but unless the inside of my house is always around 75% to 90% RH in the summer, it is not even close.

You win, I am done!

[Mark_NoVA]

There is a nice discussion of good palm species for indoors archived at: http://exoten.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/hardy.cgi...2297A5BEB85BDEE . Look at this link, and click on a bunch of the responses at the bottom.

As for Majesty Palm, don't feel bad! There are lots of reports of it being a bad palm for indoors, even though it is widely sold as such.

Spindle palm has been great indoors for me. I'm trying a wide variety of dypsis and others for the first time this winter. A lot of low-light rainforest palms will hopefully do OK as far as light levels go, the problem will be enough humidity.

--Edit--

Since that can take a long time to view, here's a copy of a text file I made from that post, along with portions of responses that mentioned specific species. Apologies for such a massive post!

________

Palms that work indoors .

Nachricht von Robz7a

Every now and then someone asks about palms that will be OK indoors for the winter season or perhaps all the time . Below are choices you may seek out and try for yourself.

PHOENIX PALMS :

P.canariensis CIDP - excellent indoors , thrives in bright ,

indirect light and tolerates dry air as well .

P.reclinata SENEGAL/AFRICAN DATE - undoubtedly suitable , not tried often .

P.dactylifera DATE PALM - just as suitable as P.canariensis but foilage is harder and less attractive.

P.roebeleni PIGMY DATE - wonderful , tolerates low light , prefers bright indirect light and sometimes a lack of iron causes leaves to turn yellow. suitable outside during the warmer months as a patio palm.

P.rupicola CLIFF DATE - not used much indoors but no reason why it could not be.

P.theophrastii CRETAN DATE - possible in brightly lit position , not used .

RHAPIS PALMS:

Excelsa LADY PALM - Unsurpassed , tolerante to low light and dry air.

slow grower , expensive . Do not allow plant to dry out indoors.

Humilis SLENDER LADY PALM - excellent as well , (same as above)

SABAL MINOR : It could be grown indoors but requires very bright light , lack of humidity would not be a problem however.

SABAL PALMETTO : Not much used as a house plant , its certainly possible to keep this palm in a high-light situation .

TRACHYCARPUS FORTUNEI : It can be grown as a house plant for several years but is much happier as a tub plant on the deck , or in the ground.

SERENOA REPENS - SAW PALMETTO - Not known as a house plant , it might be worth trying the small palm . Dry air unlikely a problem however insufficient light would cause difficulties.

SYAGRUS ROMANZOFFIANA - QUEEN PALM - It is possible given sufficient light levels.

VEITCHIA MERRILLII - CHRISTMAS PALM - Attractive plant for indoor use , provide good light and allow soil to dry out at the surface between waterings.

WASHINGTONIAS :

FILIFERA - CALIFORNIA COTTON PALM - An easy and interesting indoor palm , requires bright indirect light to flourish .

ROBUSTA - SKYDUSTER - same as above and makes a great conservatory plant in cooler climes.

ROYSTONEA :

ELATA - FLORIDA ROYAL PALM - although perhaps not tried , it could be possible for a few years IF attention was paid to humidity and lighting conditions.

REGIA - CUBAN ROYAL - Not used as such but maybe ( same as above )

RHAPIDOPHYLLUM HYSTRIX - NEEDLE PALM - Not known as indoor palm

RAVENNA RIVULARIS - MAJESTY PALM - ALthough fairly new to cultivation , sold as house palms, They are sometimes a bit overated as such if proper light , humidity and moisture and food are kept to a minimum.

PARAJUBAEA COCOIDES : It is said to stop growing after the root has made a few circles around the pot so would be happier in the ground instead.

NANNORRHOPS RITCHIANA aka MAZARI PALM - likely a good conservatory palm , as it thrives in hot dry air and bright light.

LIVISTONA :

AUSTRALIS aka AUSTRIAN FAN - possible but requires bright , indirect light

CHINESIS - aka CHINESE FAN & FOUNTAIN PALM - popular but requires bright-indirect lighting.

JUBAEA CHILENSIS - CHILEAN WINE PALM - possibly but needs bright indirect light and grows extrememly slow.

HOWEA FOSTERIANA - KENTIA PALM - UNSURPASSED ! great palm.

CHAMEADOREA PALMS:

elegans-parlor palm,

bamboo,

geonomaeformis

klotzschiana,

metallica,

stolonifera ..............wonderful indoor palms

BISMARCKIA NOBILIS -aka BISMARCKPALM ..unknown

BRAHEA ARMATA - aka MEXICAN BLUE PALM - unsuitable..however could thrive in the conservatory given high light requirements.

COCOS NUCIFERA aka COCONUT PALM - Although it is often sold as a house plant , its requirments of high humidity, high temperatures and high light, make it very unsuitable . Most plants sold as house plants die within weeks or months.

--

Rob, you ought to write a book !!!! Thanks for the info !!!!

Nachricht von David in Fayetteville TN

I have a friend who has wintered a bismarckia indoors for several years at her Mexican Restaurant in Fayetteville. She puts it out on the patio during warm weather months. It looks great...

--

Nearly all dypsis, almost no butinae

Nachricht von Jeff 7b VA

I have grown almost a dozen species of potted dypsis. Every winter for 3 months, they get stored in my dark, cool garage and watered weekly or less. They all do fine.

Butinae, including syagrus, butia, parajubaea, etc., do not generally do well without very strong light. Even then, I can't recommend them. Jubaea and allagoptera are slightly better in this regard. I would stick to the more tried and true palms for indoors, like chamaedorea, rhapis, howea, dypsis if they are to be permanent subjects indoors.

I've also ahd good success for years with phoenix, chambeyronia, pinanga, and ravenea overwintering. Moderate success with roystonea. Surpisingly poor results with areca vestiara. And why would I overwinter a sabal, serenoa, needle, or trachy?

--

one of the most beautiful rain forest palms in the world will grow in your sitting room !

Nachricht von Robz7a

EUTERPE EDULIS aka Assai Palm ...Excellent indoors , loves low light and easy to care for and best to plant several in a pot .

--

don't let the roots stay wet

Nachricht von Jeff 7b VA

I've killed a few euterpes overwintering, but always because of root dampness. They do great in the dark for a while, and then up and die on you. Water them very lightly.

--

Euterpes and other palms

Nachricht von Jeff 7b VA

I always bought them small as 1 gal or 4 " pots. Floribunda and Cycads-n-Palms. Out of maybe 7 I've bought, only 1 survives. One grower gave up growing them, telling me that they're too tricky. Supposedly when they get to 5 gal size, they're tougher.

--

Nachricht von Robz7a

NEODYPSIS DECARYI AKA Triangle Palm -

An unsurpassed palm for indoor use. It tolerates low to medium light but would prefer brighter, indirect light . Its triangular shape means that it can easily

be stood against a wall or in a corner . Its just a wonderful palm indoors or out.

--

A few more...

Nachricht von Tom, MD z7

Except for the obviously zone 7 hardy palms, I'm growing all of these indoors - most in the sunroom, but a few in the living room. Phoenix canariensis, P. dactylifera, and Chamaerops humilis spend the winter in the garage (w/ windows). Most spend the warmer months outdoors.

Adonidia merrillii (Manila Palm)

Aiphanes aculeata (Ruffle Palm)

Areca triandra

Areca vestiaria

Caryota mitis (Fishtail Palm)

Chamaedorea adscendens

Chamaedorea cataractarum

Chamaedorea elegans (Parlor Palm)

Chamaedorea ernesti-augusti

Chamaedorea metallica

Chamaedorea plumosa

Chamaedorea radicalis

Chamaedorea seifritzii (Bamboo Palm)

Chamaedorea tepejilote

Chamaerops humilis

Chuniophoenix hainanensis

Cocothrinax argentata (Florida Silver Palm)

Crysophila albida (Rootspine Palm)

Dypsis decaryi (Triangle Palm)

Howea forsteriana (Kentia Palm)

Lytocaryum weddellianum (Miniature Coconut Palm)

Phoenix canariensis (Canary Island Date Palm)

Phoenix dactylifera (Date Palm)

Phoenix roebelennii (Dwarf Date Palm)

Pritchardia hildebrandii

Pseudophoenix sargentii (Buccaneer Palm)

Ptychosperma waitianum

Ptychosperma elegans

Reinhardtia simplex

Rhapidophyllum hystrix (Needle Palm)

Rhapis excelsa (Lady Palm)

Sabal minor (Dwarf Palmetto)

Sabal minor var 'louisiana'

Sabal minor var 'McCurtain'

Sabal palmetto var 'Mt. Holly' (Palmetto)

Syagrus romanzoffiana (Queen Palm)

Thrinax radiata (Thatch Palm)

Trachycarpus fortunei (Windmill Palm)

Trachycarpus fortunei 'Polar' (Windmill Palm)

Trachycarpus takil

Trachycarpus wagnerianus (Waggy Palm)

Zombia antillarum (Zombie Palm)

--

another good one...

Nachricht von Dave in NoVA 7a

...is the Spindle Palm (Hyophorbe verschaffeltii). It seems to take low humidity pretty well. I've not tried the bottle palm (yet). Dypsis lutescens is also a good one for indoors.

--

The Hyophorbe Palms - Spindle and Bottle palms.....

Nachricht von Robz7a

Dave,

You absolutely right about H.verschaffeltii - SPINDLE PALM.

This is a good palm for indoor use but dose require warmth and good light.

as for the BOTTLE PALM ( H.lagenicaulis) It is not used in interiors , although its very suitable if the warmth and sufficient light requirements are met.

[Phil]

Group,

There's two main questions here: What can survive indoors? And, how to grow indoors? The single most important issue with growing is the water. If you use municipal water, sooner or later your plant is going to die. Water has various types of salt in it. With houseplants, water is lost mostly through evaporation. This leaves behind the salts. As time goes by, the soil gets saltier and saltier. The plant could get brown-tipping. It could throw a new brown leaf. Or, it could sucuumb to rot. You avoid this by using RO water, distilled water, or by leaching your plant. I discuss this in my article at my site. It's obvious from this thread that people are growing lots of species. But, if you don't handle the salt buildup problem, all will eventually take a dive.

Phil

[Kathryn]

That's a good suggestion about municipal water Phil. I use water from my fish tanks to water my indoor plants - and I use bottled water in the fish tanks. I always let them dry out completely before watering again.

[sonoranfans]

Group,

There's two main questions here: What can survive indoors? And, how to grow indoors? The single most important issue with growing is the water. If you use municipal water, sooner or later your plant is going to die. Water has various types of salt in it. With houseplants, water is lost mostly through evaporation. This leaves behind the salts. As time goes by, the soil gets saltier and saltier. The plant could get brown-tipping. It could throw a new brown leaf. Or, it could sucuumb to rot. You avoid this by using RO water, distilled water, or by leaching your plant. I discuss this in my article at my site. It's obvious from this thread that people are growing lots of species. But, if you don't handle the salt buildup problem, all will eventually take a dive.

Phil

salt buildup in soil is a huge problem inside and outside here in the sonoran desert with evaporation rates that are probably unmatched even in california. I use 100% municipal water, and the hardness is quite high. The answer is to use chelating agents to redissolve the salts and allow them to flow out of the container during watering. It basically allows you to recude the accumulation of mg, Ca adn other metals including Iron. A really good chelating agent is humic acid, and its also very healthy for your palms as well. I have over 30 potted palms, many of them are thirsty, must be watered alot(like archontos, dypsis). I do use humic acid in the watering can at least 1-2x a week and there is no visible salt buildup in the soil(it looks white) after 16 months(my longest potted palms). When I get salt deposits on palm leaflets, I use insecticidal soap, works great in removing salt deposits from leaves.

from this link: http://www.answers.com/topic/chelation

In geology

In earth science, chemical weathering is attributed to organic chelating agents, e.g. peptides and sugars, that have the ability to solubilize the metal ions in minerals and rocks.[2] Most metal complexes in the environment and in nature are bound in some form of chelate ring, e.g. with "humic acid" or a protein. Thus, metal chelates are relevant to the mobilization of metals in the soil, the uptake and the accumulation of metals into plants and micro-organisms. Selective chelation of heavy metals is relevant to bioremediation, e.g. removal of 137Cs from radioactive waste.[3]

If you are interesting in the chelating description of humic acid:

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/mont...6/msg00011.html

[Phil]

Tom,

I guess it's just a different approach in handling the same problem. As simple RO systems in the house are quite basic and inexpensive, I think it's the perfect solution for those who like to grow house plants. And, it's great for juices and coffee. Outdoors with bigger units, it's a different thing. But, outdoors plants are leached by rain and overwatering. So, it's not really a problem. My point was not to encourage everyone to go out and get humic acid or a RO unit. My point was that any plant, no matter how precisely selected and cared for in a container indoors, will be overwhelmed eventually by salt unless this problem is addressed.

Phil

[BS Man about Palms]

sonorafans,

You obviously are correct with your science,so I won't argue the point any further. Except to make one point might there not be a slight difference in your climate and mine re: RH.Y our RH there is much lower than here in the summer I would think, therefore the difference might not be so great between outside and inside there?

But I know that the RH inside my house in the summer is way less than the RH outside with the AC sucking a large percentage of the moisture out of the air in my house (water continually running out the AC drain). Maybe I'm the only house in Florida that experiences this considerable difference in RH inside, but maybe not?

Sorry I don't have a hygrometer to give you precise measurements,but unless the inside of my house is always around 75% to 90% RH in the summer, it is not even close.

You win, I am done!

Since I don't have any house palms, I didn't read this until now.

I noted that you both appear to be a little "right" (I make my living fixing house and commercial Air Conditioners) Any way, it is almost impossible to get the indoor humidity below 50% in a very humid area without using a dehumidifier.

As for the moisture "feel" there is a lot to this. When it is very humid (say 80%+) your body IS sweating in its attempt at cooling itself and hoping for some evaporation. (which at 80% is painfully slow, at best) BUT at high humidity, another occurrence is happening, I'm sure most of you have seen the "Dewpoint" mentioned on the weather reports? That is the point at which ANY, I say ANY surface temp will have moisture (also known in my industry as "latent heat") condense on it. That can be wood, metal, plastic, SKIN, glass, see where I'm going? This is significant, because the "condensing" effect, puts a "heat load" ON THE SURFACE IT CONDENSES ON. In your case, thats YOU!!

I try to use a simple example when explaining to my customers. Take your pot of water on the stove and think of how much heat you have to give it to make it "change state" from water to steam, then all gone. Not 100%, but effectively, all that heat is in the humidity, that is waiting to put its "heat" back on whatever surface it lands on (YOU). ---- Thats why the industry found that 40-60% humidity is optimum comfort level for us peoples! That also explains the evaporation of your sweat working, its pulling heat off of the surface as it evaporates.

And oh yes, running the heat WILL lower the humidity inside. Cold air can hold more humidity than warm air.

There are much more technical ways to write the above, but it works.

[sonoranfans]

Tom,

I guess it's just a different approach in handling the same problem. As simple RO systems in the house are quite basic and inexpensive, I think it's the perfect solution for those who like to grow house plants. And, it's great for juices and coffee. Outdoors with bigger units, it's a different thing. But, outdoors plants are leached by rain and overwatering. So, it's not really a problem. My point was not to encourage everyone to go out and get humic acid or a RO unit. My point was that any plant, no matter how precisely selected and cared for in a container indoors, will be overwhelmed eventually by salt unless this problem is addressed.

Phil

Understood phil, just stating that there is a different way to leach metals from soil, and remove them. I actually see alot of salts in the pot catchpan, but not in the soil. The humic acid also provides nourishment and keeps low levels of some important trace elements available, unlike RO. RO will tend to rinse all soluble metals and traces from the soil as ions move from the soil to the pure water moving through the pot. Humic w/RO might be the best approach. I have a high capacity RO for my salt fish tank/100 gallons a day. Perhaps I will try humic w/RO. nI suspect that most growers dont have the salt deposition created by evaporation the nway I do. Much of what I do could be "overkill" for them.

[Gtlevine]

Most of what I have to say has been echoed above, but my indoor plants have been trouble free and I use the same guidelines for all of them. I use a well draining mix and I let it completely dry out before the next watering. When I water, I take the palms outside and power hose the leaves both on the top and underside to remove dust and mites that may be on the leaves. I also water with filtered water to avoid the discoloration palms get from salt buildup in pots. Also, only a few species do well indoors for more than a couple years so rotate palms in and out.

Gary

[xerophyte_nyc]

I believe that maybe even more importantly than using RO, humic acid, vinegar or any other water altering mechanism is to make sure that when pots are watered, 2 things must occur:

1) You must water enough so that about 20% +/- of the volume of water that is added, is drained out relatively quickly. This is "leaching". The drained water will contain undissolved metals and salts. I suppose adding humic acid or other chemical may improve the efficiency of leaching, but the soil chemistry in a pot is so freakin' complex that it would be a major undertaking to sort out all the dynamics.

2) The pot MUST NOT be allowed to sit in the drained water. You end up bathing the root tips in toxic waste. I know from experience. Figure out a way to prop up your pots on top of the drainage saucer. You can empty the contents after draining is complete. If you have many plants to care for, it becomes a lot of work but if you don't want problems...

Much is written about soil mixes and there are a million variations. From my experience, what I find works best is a mix that is 100% inorganic. The majority of my plants (Palms, cycads, cactus, succulents) are in a base mix of 50-50 perlite and Turface. I add pumice or more perlite to reduce the water holding capacity of the mix, but it is extremely porous and well-drained. I can water most things daily with no fear. Some benefits of Turface include cation-exchange and it's ability to hang on to water molecules for an extended period to prevent root dessication during periods of no watering. And the mix is essentially stable forever. Theoretically it should not break down and decompose, although I;ve heard of perlite breaking down into smaller components over time. We'll see.

With this mix I must supplement for all nutrients and elements. Organic fertilizers are useless because they are predicated on bacterial breakdown. I only use slow-release granules, supplementing during the growing season as needed. Some folks also add conifer bark chips and/ or small amounts of peat moss for a little more water holding capacity or to lower pH a little. There are countless variations that all accomplish the same thing: maximum aeration, maximum stability, adequate moisture retention.

I could not be any more pleased since repotting things into the new formula. It is impossible to overwater. How great is it to be able to water every time without having to think about watering too much?

[protempsfish]

Fascinating topic regarding soil. I do have one question. I am have done my research and because of where I live, I have to keep my palms indoors over winter. For the most part, I do use RO water for my palms, but I do not have municpial tap water, I actually have well water. I have a water softener and obviously it contains salt, but would I still have to leach the soil if I chose to water my plants with my 'softened' well water or could I add something to the water to eliminate having to use RO water?

[DoomsDave]

Michael:

In keeping with Dr. Phil's observations, we periodically leach our houseplants to wash out the salt buildup. And, it can certainly build up, white or grey and crusty. Salty water is a much bigger problem here in California than it is in many other places, because we have alkaline water, and alkaline soil.

If my memory serves, they avidly lime their lawns in Hugetown, which we NEVER do out here, unless we go truly palmazon-poopy with the sulphur first.

Another huge problem I've observed with houseplants is lack of light. Unless your house has huge uncurtained windows or skylights, it's going to have the light that a cave entrance will have. (We're still cave people!)

If you keep your windows curtained all the time, and/or they're not very large, and/or you keep your plants far away from them, that's your problem. You will either need to open the curtains, use flourescent lights, ot move the plant closer to the window. Plants in offices usually do much better, because of the higher lighting there.

How about a picture of the inside of your house? Also, have you tried to raise palms in your office? If you do, be sure to spray them thoroughly against insects with a systemic, otherwise you'll have bugs up the wazoo and no predators to kill them.

[Big Tex]

Well over the past few years or so I've tried unsuccessfully to keep any palms indoors. The outcome is always the same...bud rot and spear pulls. In te past year I've lost a majesty, teddy/tri hybrid and a C. tepejilote. I try not to overwater and my house temps stay around 72-79F.

I'm at the point of giving up on growing indoors. These plants receive occasional sunlight through the window but I'm afraid the lack of humidity may be a problrm. For this reason I try and get them outside for a few hours or so once a month.

Any thoughts on this or other species to try indoors before I throw in the towel?

First off nice to see another Houstonian here! I am having the same issues with my indoor palms. I have a Macarthur Palm (Ptychosperma macarthurii) that was doing great and all of the sudden the fronds started turning brown. I also have a Christmas Palm (Veitchia merrillii) that is just not growing much after a year in the house. Both get plenty of indirect light from large south windows they sit by. When spring comes I am going to put bo th of them outside for a few months and see if that helps.

Ptychosperma macarthurii

Ptychosperma macarthurii

Veitchia merrillii

[sashaeffer]

For those who use well water like myself(in the winter, collected rain water rest of year) I have three outdoor ponds that I must keep full and while on a well, I don't want the rusty well water in the ponds so I simply bought a under the sink canister filter and attach the garden hose onto it to both fill my ponds and to fill 15 or so 1 gallon milk jugs of water to use on house palms in the winter. I keep them inside in a bathtub..much to my wifes dismay, so they can get to room temperature for use later in the week. It's a real hassle in the winter with snow on the ground and freezing cold filling milk jugs but don't want to use my softened well water on them.

[Sunnie]

I've got a Chamaedorea oblongata inside and so far so good!

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

I was going to start another topic, but this one is sufficient enough.   My question is quite simple.   Firm that we can not replicate most palms native environments in our homes, what would be the ideal RH (relative humidity) for inside to beat suit i door palms, while still being comfortable and healthy for us.  It is my understanding that 40-60% is in the good range for us.  I keep my place around 50 (low end) to 63/64 %.   Here in northern va we tend to get very dry during winter.  Very low humidity outdoors at times and even lower indoors due to heating.    With all of that in mind, is it as simple as saying to keep the humidity at the top level we can while maintaining health and comfort?   

[sashaeffer]

Well since most HVAC systems here in the US has a built in humidifier the max I've seen it be able to maintain inside the home is 45% humidity so anything more than that has to come from a room humidifier close to the plants/palms. I think rule of thumb would be when you start to see beads of moisture form on windows to back off on the added humidity as no one wants to create other issues inside the home from too much humidity.

That being said, I try to keep mine at 50-55%

Edited October 16, 2016 by sashaeffer
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[DCA_Palm_Fan]

5 hours ago, sashaeffer said:

Well since most HVAC systems here in the US has a built in humidifier the max I've seen it be able to maintain inside the home is 45% humidity so anything more than that has to come from a room humidifier close to the plants/palms. I think rule of thumb would be when you start to see beads of moisture form on windows to back off on the added humidity as no one wants to create other issues inside the home from too much humidity.

That being said, I try to keep mine at 50-55%

Interesting you bring that specific thing up.  Where I currently live, we have no regular HVAC system. Spacecurrently live, we have no regular HVAC system.  We are on a system that draws water from our local lake.   (one of which I live directly on)  th water is then either chilled to 40f or 105f and circulated through lipless that run Throuth each residence here.   There is a fan unit in each residence that blows over the heated or cooled pipes.  There is a drip pan that catches condensation, and directs it out of the building.   There are no built in humidifiers or dehumidifiers.   This makes our  humidity levels much more easily controllable.  I do this with warm mist humidifiers  and it works beautifully. If it gets very bad ansnthe two humidifiers struggle to stay at 50%  then I will being to a boil a large pot of water in the stove top, then summer it on medium low (not boil) and this works like a cha tiger back up to 55-60% .  

This is why I asked my question since I can manipulate the humidity to basically whatever I want. In winter it is harder to attain high humidity but it is still relatively easy compared to normal hvac systems.  Most of the struggle here for me is that outdoors gets so extremely dry at times, especially when we have extreme cold.   Even normal cold can land you with humidity levels of 15-30%.   Def bad for palms and tropical sand bad for people too.   

Your 50-55% sounds good to me.  I'm just trying to get a good rule of thumb.  In my mind my range seems good, but I've never actually asked others.    Thanks for responding?   Cheers. :-)

[BS Man about Palms]

On 8/24/2008, 8:15:12, BS Man about Palms said:

 

Since I don't have any house palms, I didn't read this until now.

 

I noted that you both appear to be a little "right" (I make my living fixing house and commercial Air Conditioners) Any way, it is almost impossible to get the indoor humidity below 50% in a very humid area without using a dehumidifier.

 

As for the moisture "feel" there is a lot to this. When it is very humid (say 80%+) your body IS sweating in its attempt at cooling itself and hoping for some evaporation. (which at 80% is painfully slow, at best) BUT at high humidity, another occurrence is happening, I'm sure most of you have seen the "Dewpoint" mentioned on the weather reports? That is the point at which ANY, I say ANY surface temp will have moisture (also known in my industry as "latent heat") condense on it. That can be wood, metal, plastic, SKIN, glass, see where I'm going? This is significant, because the "condensing" effect, puts a "heat load" ON THE SURFACE IT CONDENSES ON. In your case, thats YOU!!

 

I try to use a simple example when explaining to my customers. Take your pot of water on the stove and think of how much heat you have to give it to make it "change state" from water to steam, then all gone. Not 100%, but effectively, all that heat is in the humidity, that is waiting to put its "heat" back on whatever surface it lands on (YOU). ---- Thats why the industry found that 40-60% humidity is optimum comfort level for us peoples! That also explains the evaporation of your sweat working, its pulling heat off of the surface as it evaporates.

 

And oh yes, running the heat WILL lower the humidity inside. Cold air can hold more humidity than warm air.

 

There are much more technical ways to write the above, but it works.

Sorry, trying to mulitquote and my computer doesn't let me learn how or like it..

[BS Man about Palms]

6 hours ago, sashaeffer said:

Well since most HVAC systems here in the US has a built in humidifier the max I've seen it be able to maintain inside the home is 45% humidity so anything more than that has to come from a room humidifier close to the plants/palms. I think rule of thumb would be when you start to see beads of moisture form on windows to back off on the added humidity as no one wants to create other issues inside the home from too much humidity.

That being said, I try to keep mine at 50-55%

I was trying to add my quote at the same time, but this should suffice. From the industry standard, depending on where you are it depends on whether you have a humidifier or DEhumidifier...or none. It is an OPTION. Generally the short version is the longer you run the heat, the MORE you will need to add humidity, so humidifiers are very common in the midwest and northeast, the rest of the country is likely to have dehumidifiers or nothing since the running heat time is much less. You start getting involved in the house envelope and how much is transferred inside to out and vice versa. Mother Nature is trying to make everywhere THE SAME. Our industry is trying to keep a general comfort range of 68-78F and 40-60% RH inside. If your plants (and most do) prefer something else, the longer you require an HVAC system to run, the more in the winter it is likely to dry out, and in the summer, the humidity will also lower too, but normally less of an issue.

An interesting note is that a lot of the "tight" new houses will bring in some cold outside air as it will hold more humidity and that is what counter acts the humidifiers making it too humid and condensing on the windows and cooler surfaces.

 

But for your plants you all are on the right track.. a warm mist humidifier is your best bet to keep your plants happy.

 

[sashaeffer]

For the record I am on a heat pump with a forced air furnace as back up. When in heat pump mode (outside temps above 22f) there is NO drying of the air. So I only run room humidifiers when forced air heat is used.