XButyagrus EVERYWHERE!!!

[Phil]

I noticed this thread jumped a bit: from the Mule Palm (Butia X Queen) to the Foxy Lady (Wodyetia X Veitchia). We do have them both for sale, but they are totally different plants. I've always figured that Mule Palms have two potential fan clubs. First are those who want to grow a Queen but live in a colder area. The Butia parentage gives more cold hardiness. Second are those who like the looks of the Mule. It certainly doesn't look like either of the parents and is quite attractive. Now the Foxy Lady is a different thing. Most of you know the story about how it was accidentally discovered in Australia. Serendipity played its part. This hybrid is a very gorgeous offspring that shows more cold hardiness than the Veitchia. But, it has nowhere near the cold hardiness of the Mule. It's tropical appearance with wide leaflets is what everyone loves. Most of our mules are sold to people in colder areas, especially by mail order. The Foxy Lady are mostly sold locally to people in the Coastal areas. If any of you hybridizers out there want to get rich quickly, keep working on a Coconut Hybrid. I'd be one of your biggest buyers and hope that some day this happens.

Phil

[Tampa Scott]

Butiagrus can produce seed. I have 3 mature Butiagrus that have produced seed at least once. Two of them have produced around a dozen seed a year. The other one produces hundreds of seed. I have two offspring from the one that produces the most seed. Yesterday I started cracking seed from the palm. I had cracked around 20 seed when I found one that had endosperm, I stopped cracking and planted the rest of the seed. I have seen other Butiagrus in my area with fruit also. I have to say that it is Myth that Butiagrus are 100% sterile

[PalmGuyWC]

Check out "Marks Garden" and there are two photos of what appears to be a Butia X Coconut hybrid. Mark said it was an accidental cross, as he has two Coconuts that are blooming. If this is a true Coconut hybrid, this will be a first as far as I know. It will be interesting to see this palm grow, and to see how much cold it will take.

Dick

[AJQ]

Dave and Gaston, thanks. I've been working in "Eastern U Rope" for a year or so. Back home now to look after my Palms.

Here it is a year later. We have had Constant Rain for the last 3 months and very little Sunshine at all, the "Summer" has been a complete washout. There has been a lot of browning on the tips due the massive amounts of rain we've had. Last weekend we had a months worth in a day!!!! So overwatering has been a problem from Mother Nature.

The Nanas and the Washie have enjoyed the rain though.

Regards Andy

[ErikSJI]

This is the same guy who made the same offer in a thread on Palm Talk some weeks ago. He claimed his mules were superior because they were hand pollinated with fresh pollen.

Dick

You got that wrong. What I claimed was we had a higher success rate pollinating with fresh pollen, and that we were producing doubles, and triples by using fresh pollen. Higher success rate means more mule palms. Get it right before you quote me.

Butia capitata naturally produce seeds with three windows. I think it would be safe to say that any offspring might show the same characteristics irregardless of the father. I don't think it has anything to do with your pollination techniques.

So then what your telling me is you have seen them before. Does anyone have any photos of them in larger sizes, doubles and triple mules that is?

[freakypalmguy]

So then what your telling me is you have seen them before. Does anyone have any photos of them in larger sizes, doubles and triple mules that is?

No, I definitely did not say that. But I've seen it with both Butia's and Syagrus, so one would expect the offspring of the combo to exhibit similar traits.

[MAUSER]

I had to make my own butiagrus, because there was no seller in Spain. And taking the good things from each of the teachers, besides putting a little ingenuity, now I have developed a simple method for making them.

Sometimes I have seed doubles. I still have not had any triple.

Regards

Edited August 25, 2008 by MAUSER

[Alicehunter2000]

Ray,

Seeing as how your a part time local here, we should probably get together sometime and compare notes.

[merrill]

Hi, ErikSJI:

My experience over forty years supports your observation. I've never had three separate seedlings from one seed, even tho I've had four compartments in one seed. Congratulations! There have been two seedlings from one seed repeatedly, tho. As you have observed, as pollen ages, one is more likely to get defective plantlets from the derived seed. It would be extremely interesting to photograph one of your triple seedlings. Someone should provide you with one of the Attalea; as I remember, some have six or twelve compartments per seed! If anyone remembers an Attalea w/ 12 compartments we'd be very interested!

Best Wishes,

merrrill

[Mark Heath]

Not to throw any more controversy on this subject but,,, i've had many doubles and triples w/ pollinating w/ frozen pollen. I usually seperate them because i don't want them to crowd the other and stunt the growth. Several do slip by me and make it to a 3 gallon size. I do have several doubles here at my property in a 3 gallon if you need proof. I have found that through the years that different Queens have different success rates w/ germination. I have a Queen on my property that produces very large fruit and copious amounts of it if left alone. That is the Queen that i use to pollinate my Butia.

Now,,,, Dick,, you are correct, Erik stated on his WEBSITE that he uses fresh pollen only, therefore producing a superior hybrid verses using frozen pollen. Erik, you should stand behind your bold statements!!!!! You only mentioned the "better germination" rate after you were "called out"!

My only statement in this matter is that i thought that was a silly "sales ploy", to unsuspecting customers! I get excellent results w/ frozen pollen! Albeit my pollen is usually only a cpl of months at best in the freezer. They use frozen sperm w/ humans w/ zero effect, why would'nt it be the same w/ palms??

I am not selling my XButiagrus's untill they are specimen size because i have a contract w/ the state, counties, and local colleges, so therefore i am not a competitor of Eriks, at least not yet. So please don't think i'm trying to take customers away from you, i am a grower, not a nurseryman. I have only sold to fellow palmnuts or to friends of mine.

[ErikSJI]

Not to throw any more controversy on this subject but,,, i've had many doubles and triples w/ pollinating w/ frozen pollen. I usually seperate them because i don't want them to crowd the other and stunt the growth. Several do slip by me and make it to a 3 gallon size. I do have several doubles here at my property in a 3 gallon if you need proof. I have found that through the years that different Queens have different success rates w/ germination. I have a Queen on my property that produces very large fruit and copious amounts of it if left alone. That is the Queen that i use to pollinate my Butia.

Now,,,, Dick,, you are correct, Erik stated on his WEBSITE that he uses fresh pollen only, therefore producing a superior hybrid verses using frozen pollen. Erik, you should stand behind your bold statements!!!!! You only mentioned the "better germination" rate after you were "called out"!

My only statement in this matter is that i thought that was a silly "sales ploy", to unsuspecting customers! I get excellent results w/ frozen pollen! Albeit my pollen is usually only a cpl of months at best in the freezer. They use frozen sperm w/ humans w/ zero effect, why would'nt it be the same w/ palms??

I am not selling my XButiagrus's untill they are specimen size because i have a contract w/ the state, counties, and local colleges, so therefore i am not a competitor of Eriks, at least not yet. So please don't think i'm trying to take customers away from you, i am a grower, not a nurseryman. I have only sold to fellow palmnuts or to friends of mine.

Again the website says. "We have the parent palms located at our nursery, therefore, we use

NO FROZEN POLLEN

and have 100 % success rate unlike other growers.

I also said in a chat that yes I think using fresh pollen has its advantages and I do think it is a superior product. That was in a chat that's not what I state on our website. Everyone would like to think what they are growing is the best. I apologize if you took offense to that. If you have 10,000 seedlings rather then 300 I am almost positive you can guess where you would find the superior tree. Its just the odds.

It says nothing about being superior to other growers, only that we have a higher success rate and can produce more. If you go to any other mule palm site. That is a fact, and I do stand by my bold statement. Of what I stated. I am not really understanding why you are so upset.

I also said nothing about seeing proof of a triple. I just wanted to see a larger one because I have not in the past. Now that I have a larger one. No photo is needed. Thanks John for sending it to us.

As far as silly sales ploy. Our product speaks for itself. They sell themselves. It does not take to much to sell a mule palm. You know that as well as I do.

We will be selling larger specimens on the website soon. Up to 10 foot.

As far as prices dropping that is a given also. When there is more product there will be less demand. So more mule palms for everyone.

[Jeff in St Pete]

Butiagrus can produce seed. I have 3 mature Butiagrus that have produced seed at least once. Two of them have produced around a dozen seed a year. The other one produces hundreds of seed. I have two offspring from the one that produces the most seed. Yesterday I started cracking seed from the palm. I had cracked around 20 seed when I found one that had endosperm, I stopped cracking and planted the rest of the seed. I have seen other Butiagrus in my area with fruit also. I have to say that it is Myth that Butiagrus are 100% sterile

Hi Scott, I've been following posts and other information about Butyagrus over the years and the way I understand it, a Butyagrus is not really sterile, it is self-sterile. The flowers can be pollinated by another Queen or Butia and those are the ones that can germinate. Seedlings that come from a Butyagrus would not be a true offspring of the parent, but rather a back-cross. Does this make sense? Or have I totally misunderstood all the information I have read?

[Ray]

Ray,

Seeing as how your a part time local here, we should probably get together sometime and compare notes.

Sounds like a good idea to me David, I would like to see your palms. I don't have much to brag about here, but we can sure compare notes.

[Mark Heath]

I deffinatly see alot more production of Mules that's for sure! And yes, it will drive the prices down, but i never intended to sell them for a pretty penny anyways. I'll sell my large ones wholesale and sell the 3gallons to the general public after i fill my property.

I'm glad to see that someone is using the domain name that i held onto for a few years! I decided to not have a website untill i was ready to sell.

[Tampa Scott]

Butiagrus can produce seed. I have 3 mature Butiagrus that have produced seed at least once. Two of them have produced around a dozen seed a year. The other one produces hundreds of seed. I have two offspring from the one that produces the most seed. Yesterday I started cracking seed from the palm. I had cracked around 20 seed when I found one that had endosperm, I stopped cracking and planted the rest of the seed. I have seen other Butiagrus in my area with fruit also. I have to say that it is Myth that Butiagrus are 100% sterile

Hi Scott, I've been following posts and other information about Butyagrus over the years and the way I understand it, a Butyagrus is not really sterile, it is self-sterile. The flowers can be pollinated by another Queen or Butia and those are the ones that can germinate. Seedlings that come from a Butyagrus would not be a true offspring of the parent, but rather a back-cross. Does this make sense? Or have I totally misunderstood all the information I have read?

Jeff, I have watched for Butia and Syagrus flowering near by at the time. The flower stalks that produce seed are the flower stalks that had another flower stalk open its male flowers when the other flower stalk had its female flowers in receptive mode. When my Butiagrus has no other flower stalk at the time it produces no seed. This tree has produced 14 flower stalks this year,only 4 have produced seed.It seems it self-pollinates itself. Here is a picture of current seed on this Butiagrus.

[Tampa Scott]

here is the picture of the offspring... other photos are in the topic of "Myth Busted"

Edited August 30, 2008 by Tampa Scott

[PalmGuyWC]

It's a mystery to me why some of you have Butiagrus that produce viable seeds. I have 3 that are 35 years old and none of them have ever produced viable seeds. I have Butias that are growing under Syagrus and none of them have ever produced Butiagrus seeds unless they are hand pollinated.

My Bujubaea is also self sterile, but it will accept pollens from other species.

Dick

[Tala]

Butiagrus can produce seed. I have 3 mature Butiagrus that have produced seed at least once. Two of them have produced around a dozen seed a year. The other one produces hundreds of seed. I have two offspring from the one that produces the most seed. Yesterday I started cracking seed from the palm. I had cracked around 20 seed when I found one that had endosperm, I stopped cracking and planted the rest of the seed. I have seen other Butiagrus in my area with fruit also. I have to say that it is Myth that Butiagrus are 100% sterile

Hi Scott, I've been following posts and other information about Butyagrus over the years and the way I understand it, a Butyagrus is not really sterile, it is self-sterile. The flowers can be pollinated by another Queen or Butia and those are the ones that can germinate. Seedlings that come from a Butyagrus would not be a true offspring of the parent, but rather a back-cross. Does this make sense? Or have I totally misunderstood all the information I have read?

Jeff you have it 100% right. If there are flowering Butia and or Syagrus nearby (basically within eyesight), those are what has pollinated the Mule. Their pollen is light, easily wind blown, and honey bees will travel acres upon acres to move it. The hybrid palm's pollen is what seems to be the main issue, at least in the few times I have messed w/ them. What little becomes available is just no good. But the female flowers are obviously in working order on these, caveat is the timing has to be near perfect.

I have one palm germ. from some seed Merrill gave out in baggies @ CFPACS meeting about 3 or so yrs ago. One of ten sprouted so I need to ask him where they came from, surely he told me and just as surely I've forgotten. But its definitely a hybrid. Also have another that is looking more & more Butia-ish every month so most likely it is 3/4 of that.

As to the claimed example here I'm in heavy denial on it. My advice would be for anyone to make this claim they would have to provide a step by step documentation of it. Considering how many tens of thousands of seeds have been tried by many, and no one I repeat no one palm has ever been produced, it makes this one claim seem dubious at best. Over the yrs we have found seed that actually pretended to germinate but never lived long enough to tell the tale. I'm not the one to say never to anything, perhaps this is the debut of a botanical miracle, but history considered we really should have to see it to believe it. Apologies for sounding so negative but this would be a tremendously important accomplishment if true. Oh, and keep a keen eye out for the hybrid police - unmarked van & suits, could be whisked away at any moment ...

[Tampa Scott]

Hi Scott, I've been following posts and other information about Butyagrus over the years and the way I understand it, a Butyagrus is not really sterile, it is self-sterile. The flowers can be pollinated by another Queen or Butia and those are the ones that can germinate. Seedlings that come from a Butyagrus would not be a true offspring of the parent, but rather a back-cross. Does this make sense? Or have I totally misunderstood all the information I have read?

Edited August 30, 2008 by Tampa Scott

[merrill]

Fellow palm lovers:

XButyagrus shows fertility so rarely one shouldn't expect to find fertile plants except in exceedingly small numbers. In my experience, only about 3 have turned up. If XButyagrus were not so sterile, we'd have its queen backcross in profusion. They are plumose, but much more densely foliaged than F1 XButyagrus, or OTOH queen itself, making them a big improvement over XButyagrus F1. Here is a photo of the F1, with Charlie Rauleron, its proud Papa:

http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-onlin...rticulture5.htm

In JXB hybrids, it is only the ([JXB]XB)XB generation that begins to be self-fertile.

Hi, Tala: My apologies, but I don't remember distributing seeds so recently. You might post a photo when it grows up a little.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[merrill]

Deleted

Edited September 12, 2008 by merrill

[ErikSJI]

Hi, ErikSJI:

My experience over forty years supports your observation. I've never had three separate seedlings from one seed, even tho I've had four compartments in one seed. Congratulations! There have been two seedlings from one seed repeatedly, tho. As you have observed, as pollen ages, one is more likely to get defective plantlets from the derived seed. It would be extremely interesting to photograph one of your triple seedlings. Someone should provide you with one of the Attalea; as I remember, some have six or twelve compartments per seed! If anyone remembers an Attalea w/ 12 compartments we'd be very interested!

Best Wishes,

merrrill

Hello Merril thanks for the information. Someone had posted earlier that there were only 3 compartments on the mule palm seed or should I say maybe he said with the queen palm. Is that so? Because I believe we may have a quad on our hands right now. But did not think it was possible. I have just recently taken a 3 year old bare root photo and posted it as well. I have photos of the bare root triples and doubles, and a 3 year old triple. I can post them again if you would like to see them.

[merrill]

Hi, ErikSJI:

I've opened quite a few S. roma.... seed, never seen more than one endosperm. Would enjoy seeing the photos.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[PalmGuyWC]

Yesterday as I climbed to a Syagrus inflorescence to see if the female flowers were near anthesis, (they weren't) I noticed an infruitescence covered with wire that Patrick had pollinated July, '07. The cross was Syagrus X Jubaea and mixed among the fruit were a few that were twice the size of a normal Syagrus. We are presumeing these are probabably hybrid seeds, and the rest are probably dummies. They are just begining to show color, so we should know soon. Less than 10% were oversized.

Dick