Silver date palm planting

[palmdudetx]

This is just a small experiment I did when planting a couple of Phoenix Sylvestris, they were planted late spring of 2006 as small juveniles. Both were the same size at planting, one in a berm and the other not elevated. The berm soil was made up of soil exactly the same as the one not in the berm. A yard stick is in front of both trees well, the last photo did not get rotated, will correct, sorry.

[_Keith]

OK, it appears that the one planted lower has grass right up to the base of the palm, and the bermed one does not. If that is so, could it be as simple as competition from the grass.

Also, how was the soil prepared for the lower one? How large was the preparation hole? The bermed one would have had a fairly easy time of it when it comes to roots penetrating the soil. I am wondering what the case would be for the lower one.

[iamjv]

Interesting growth comparison... wonder if the berm truly had anything to do with it or is it just by chance that the one palm is just a faster grower??? Any chance the bigger one is getting addional water from under ground? Jv

[palmdudetx]

Keith,

Both were planted with the planting hole dug exactly the same way, the grass is kept back from the trunk of the smaller one for a few inches, however, I intend to enlarge and mulch the area.

Marvin

[palmdudetx]

jv,

No, there is no underground water until several feet down, a lot farther down past the root system.

Beautiful San Antonio, one of my favorite cities.

Marvin

[sonoranfans]

I think the size of a palms roots and their ultimate expansion often depends on the volume of soil that undergoes a complete dry cycle. According to U of A hort dept, if the soil is continuously wet, the roots in the continuously wet zone will die back in many palm species, like brahea armata and washingtonia filifera. Sylvestris are reportedly desirous of good drainage, according to various sites I have seen. I suspect that they will behave the same, that the good drainage site will grow a fuller more productive root system, leading to better growth above the ground. In my area, with slow draining soils, a bermed palm will grow a more extensive root system as the dry cycle will be consistent to a greater depth. I would start with the hypothesis that the grass watering tends to keep the soil wet and berming the one palm tends to enhance drainage so it suffers less from waterlogged roots. there are palms like syagrus that love to be wet, cant hurt the root growth that way(being continuously wet). I suspect that the sylvestris are palms that do much better with a consistent dry cycle to a certain depth.

Also if you get periodic continuous rain for a few weeks, the bermed spot will drain the roots better during a seasonal wet period.

Edited August 22, 2008 by sonoranfans

[_Keith]

I think the size of a palms roots and their ultimate expansion often depends on the volume of soil that undergoes a complete dry cycle. According to U of A hort dept, if the soil is continuously wet, the roots in the continuously wet zone will die back in many palm species, like brahea armata and washingtonia filifera. Sylvestris are reportedly desirous of good drainage, according to various sites I have seen. I suspect that they will behave the same, that the good drainage site will grow a fuller more productive root system, leading to better growth above the ground. In my area, with slow draining soils, a bermed palm will grow a more extensive root system as the dry cycle will be consistent to a greater depth. I would start with the hypothesis that the grass watering tends to keep the soil wet and berming the one palm tends to enhance drainage so it suffers less from waterlogged roots. there are palms like syagrus that love to be wet, cant hurt the root growth that way(being continuously wet). I suspect that the sylvestris are palms that do much better with a consistent dry cycle to a certain depth.

Also if you get periodic continuous rain for a few weeks, the bermed spot will drain the roots better during a seasonal wet period.

This is fascinating, and something I have not heard of before. Do you have a link to the report above or to any other information on the dry cycle.

[sonoranfans]

I think the size of a palms roots and their ultimate expansion often depends on the volume of soil that undergoes a complete dry cycle. According to U of A hort dept, if the soil is continuously wet, the roots in the continuously wet zone will die back in many palm species, like brahea armata and washingtonia filifera. Sylvestris are reportedly desirous of good drainage, according to various sites I have seen. I suspect that they will behave the same, that the good drainage site will grow a fuller more productive root system, leading to better growth above the ground. In my area, with slow draining soils, a bermed palm will grow a more extensive root system as the dry cycle will be consistent to a greater depth. I would start with the hypothesis that the grass watering tends to keep the soil wet and berming the one palm tends to enhance drainage so it suffers less from waterlogged roots. there are palms like syagrus that love to be wet, cant hurt the root growth that way(being continuously wet). I suspect that the sylvestris are palms that do much better with a consistent dry cycle to a certain depth.

Also if you get periodic continuous rain for a few weeks, the bermed spot will drain the roots better during a seasonal wet period.

This is fascinating, and something I have not heard of before. Do you have a link to the report above or to any other information on the dry cycle.

Apparently the U of A site has changed and I cant find the FAQ. I did a quick google search and found this:

"PROVIDING GOOD DRAINAGE - Good drainage is essential to soil health. Too little drainage makes a soggy soil, which prevents root growth, nutrient absorption, and compacts the soil. A perk test is an easy way to determine water drainage through your soil. Dig a hole six inches across by one foot deep. Fill with water and let drain. As soon as the water has drained, fill it again. Time how long it takes for the water to drain. If it takes more than 8 hours, you have a drainage problem.

Add sand, gypsum, chopped straw, vermiculite or perlite to increase the drainage. Too much drainage can be determined by a water test. This will tell you if you soil drains too quickly, leaching nutrients and causing plants to be watered more frequently. Water well a small portion of your garden. Two days later, dig a hole 6 inches deep. If the soil is dry to the bottom of the hole, your soil drains too quickly to promote good plant growth. Add peat moss, vermiculite, perlite, composted manure and mulch well to prevent evaporation. "

at this site: http://www.avant-gardening.com/ogardening.htm

The principle as I remember it, is that the beneficial microbes in the soil that stimulate root growth in pretty much all plants die back(become less prevalent) in waterlogged soils and this stunts root growth. I learned this about 8 years ago when my trees(no not palms) kept getting knocked down during our windy monsoon season. When I removed them I found really small root systems that I later traced to excessive watering at the U of A website. Nowdays I remediate my soils so they cycle well and nothing falls down anymore. I also use a rod to test the depth at which the soil is wet after watering. If the rod goes in the soil easily and isnt stopped, it is still wet. ( the rod test is only useful in clay soils that drain poorly)

If you are really interested I would do a google search with say "root growth, soggy soils" or "roots, beneficial microbes, soggy soil.

My hypothesis is that palms/trees that grow deeper roots need better drainage because of this. Queens(and royals) grow alot of surface roots and seem to be immune to soggy soil.

Edited August 22, 2008 by sonoranfans

[iamjv]

Interesting view point Tom.... guess that all makes good sense. Luckily for me I have a well drained yard due to the slope... now if I only had decent soil!

Thanks Marvin, we like it here as well.

Jv

[Tala]

type of soil is important in this as well, all Phoenix grown in cen. Fla.'s sand will sit in water for wks at a time and love every second of it as long as it is warm. They'll tolerate but don't like cold wet soil (hard to find any palm that does), but when it is growing season it is impossible to overwater the root system of any Phoenix species. Some species e.g roebelenii are practically rheophytes in habitat. Just hypothesizing now but I think thats a reason for the ever present adventitious roots in this genus; even desert palms like dactyifera can be seasonally flooded.

[iamjv]

Dave, you are right about the dacty's loving water... I was amazed at the amount of water 'Date" growers provide their plants... they flood the fields throughout the year and only cut back around harvest time (Aug through Nov). Jv

[sonoranfans]

Dave, you are right about the dacty's loving water... I was amazed at the amount of water 'Date" growers provide their plants... they flood the fields throughout the year and only cut back around harvest time (Aug through Nov). Jv

Not exactly, Iraq leads the world in date production, the USA is just a fringe grower of dates. Iraq weather is not even close to FLA or Texas, and definitely not as wet.

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/Date.html

"The date palm must have full sun. It cannot live in the shade. It will grow in all warm climates where the temper ature rarely falls to 20°F (-6.67°C). When the palm is dormant, it can stand temperatures that low, but when in flower or fruit the mean temperature must be above 64°F (17.78°C). Commercial fruit production is possible only where there is a long, hot growing season with daily maximum temperatures of 90°F (32.22°C) and virtually no rain—less than 1/2 in (1.25 cm) in the ripening season. The date can tolerate long periods of drought though, for heavy bearing, it has a high water requirement. This is best supplied by periodic flooding from the rivers in North Africa and by subsurface water rather than by rain. (See remarks on irrigation under "Culture"). "

According to this texas or florida are really non ideal for growing date palms. The USA is non even an ideal climate at all for growing date plams.

By the way PACSOA says the silver date does best in a "well drained position". I will believe experienced in this one.

http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/Phoenix/sylvestris.html

Edited August 25, 2008 by sonoranfans

[iamjv]

Hey Tom, I wasn't inferring the dates get their watering from the weather but rather by irrigation... it is very true that they must be in full sun, and extreme dry heat to "reliably" produce "quality" fruit. In addition, they must have lots of water, that is why even in Iraq, the plants are all planted in soil ringed beds so that it can be field-flooded throughout the year. The Calif growers try to get the soil wet to a depth of 5 or 6 feet for proper hydration of the palms. Some studies recommend upwards of 44,000 cubic meters of water per hectare pe year... There is a motto in the date business that states the trees like "Their heads in the fire and their feet in the water..."

Back in the 1930-40s Texas A&M university had a date experiment farm near Corrizo Springs. After years of experimenting they came to the conclusion that the weather was too unpredictable here in Texas to commercially grow dates. This was due primarily to the potential rains we have in the fall that can easily ruin the crop. The date fruit itself must stay dry during the latter stages (Khalal & Rutab stages) of development or it will rot and fall off the tree prematurely.

I've actually visited the original experiment farm and there still remains trees that were planted by the university, which have survived years of neglect and a couple of historic freezes. Cheers, Jv

[sonoranfans]

Hey Tom, I wasn't inferring the dates get their watering from the weather but rather by irrigation... it is very true that they must be in full sun, and extreme dry heat to "reliably" produce "quality" fruit. In addition, they must have lots of water, that is why even in Iraq, the plants are all planted in soil ringed beds so that it can be field-flooded throughout the year. The Calif growers try to get the soil wet to a depth of 5 or 6 feet for proper hydration of the palms. Some studies recommend upwards of 44,000 cubic meters of water per hectare pe year... There is a motto in the date business that states the trees like "Their heads in the fire and their feet in the water..."

Back in the 1930-40s Texas A&M university had a date experiment farm near Corrizo Springs. After years of experimenting they came to the conclusion that the weather was too unpredictable here in Texas to commercially grow dates. This was due primarily to the potential rains we have in the fall that can easily ruin the crop. The date fruit itself must stay dry during the latter stages (Khalal & Rutab stages) of development or it will rot and fall off the tree prematurely.

I've actually visited the original experiment farm and there still remains trees that were planted by the university, which have survived years of neglect and a couple of historic freezes. Cheers, Jv

You also might be suprised that the phoenix dactylifera is one of the toughest, best looking palms in the desert, with just a monthly deep water and the 8" or so that we get here annually. They are number 2 to the washingtonia filifera in the hot and dry here as far as good color tone. When they are used as public landscaping palms, you know they will be shorted on water and these do well here. I would put their growth rate here up against texas, without all the flooding and water. Ive seen small ones on a berm(4' palm overall) get to 12' overall in 3 years without floodling,just reliable weekly drip irrigation, and the good drainage that the berm offers.

[iamjv]

Tom, no doubt both filifera and dacty's love your desert heat. One thing your region certainly has over ours is the fact that you are not prone to artic outbreaks like we are here. Unfortunately we see such events every 15 yrs or so... not pretty when it happens! Jv

[merrill]

Gentlemen:

Recently there have been references to new date varieties that fruit well in more humid climates. Can anyone enlighten us?

Many TX,

merrill

[Kris]

Gentlemen:

Recently there have been references to new date varieties that fruit well in more humid climates. Can anyone enlighten us?

Many TX,

merrill

Yes,even iam intreasted in knowing about it ?

thanks & love,

Kris

[Tala]

we planted some Zahidi (or thats what they are supposed to be, I have no idea how to tell for sure, its in the taste no???), these reside in Clermont, east of hwy. 27 but right on hwy. 50 by a bank. Drove by today, but for several yrs now these palms annually are hanging full of fruit, hundreds upon hundreds per tree of yellow/orange globes, nearly ripe??? I'm no date lover so cannot attest to the quality. Also Zahidi were planted in downtown Orlando mebbe a decade back, these will fruit if city landscapers let them. Heard some good things about Deglet Noor as well. Will check around.

[kahili]

Another way to explain the bermed palm's better growth is that roots need oxygen to grow (grow more robustly) and water displaces oxygen-so the better drainage, the better root growth, the more leaves. Obviously there is less chance of root dieback in soils that drain well.

An interesting note-roots grow more at night, and so its better to water in the am -whether in a container or in the ground, so the soil has a chance to drain during the day. Another reason to water in the day is too avoid wet foliage at night-where there is greater chance to get a fungus. Not sure how much that would apply to palms-maybe someone here knows. It does apply to many other types of plants.

Looking at these pictures makes me wish I had bermed up the soil for my palms in the ground-thanks for showing us this-very helpful.

[iamjv]

Merrill,

I personally haven't heard of these new varieties of dates but that is not to say they don't exist. I have seen crosses between dacty & canariensis that do real well in more humid conditions and still produce a meater date than a pure canary does. Maybe this is what was referenced... Jv