Phoenix reclinata

[Walt]

Many years ago I purchased my first Phoenix reclinata from a local backyard nursery. The palm was about a 5-gallon size. I planted that palm near the east end of my front yard.

A year later I purchased a second 5-gallon Phoenix reclinata from the same nursery. I planted this one in a small field area of my property. This one gets mostly full sun, while the other one gets more shade.

The first palm is much darker green and its leaves are more on a level/flat plane, whereas the field grown palm is much lighter green in color and the leaflets alternate on a much greater angle (from a flat plane).

Both palms get the same cultural practices. I chalk up the differences to genetic, hybridization differences.

Another difference, the first palm has trunks up to 7' tall, whereas the field grown palm has trunks one half that tall, yet it sets seeds, the first one only flowers but doesn't set seeds.

My only question with regard to this post is what any of you think about what my P. reclinata palms are hybridized with (if any).

This is the smaller field grown, mostly full sun, P. reclinata

The alternating leaves of the field grown P. reclinata

The more shade grown P. reclinata

The less alternating (angle) of the more shade grown P. reclinata

[iamjv]

I'd say both of these palms are not pure reclinata.... the phoenix that is growing in the shade (second palm/pic) has a lot of rupicola in it... phoenix hybridize easily and it is hard to obtain pure species. Jv

[sonoranfans]

I also think the second one looks like a rupie cross, the first is probably a cross with canariensis or dactylifera(these crosses supposedly gives rise to the 2 plane plumosity of the fronds). I really like the looks of the second one, very nice. A pure reclinata is worth many thousands at that size, but I prefer the rupie look. Very nice palms, thanks for the pics.

here is a rupie cross

http://azpalmandcycad.org/images_cycad/Pho...aXreclinata.jpg

Also, the Jungle music web site has alot of reclinata pics and some good info.

Edited September 4, 2008 by sonoranfans

[iamjv]

Tom, that is one heck of a good looking phx hybrid!!! At first glance it even looks like a coconut... is this at your place? Jv

[Tala]

Walt you are correct the light/cultural settings have nothing to do w/ their forms. The 2nd palm is what I would refer to as "typical" reclinata, at least for Fl. thats mainly what we see here. I'm not saying its 100% true, if grown in Fl. there could be anything hiding in the lineage from yrs back. I'd to see the petioles, I could tell if it has rupicola in it that way. There are some gorgeous rup X rec hybrids in Orlando. If Eric sees this he'll know the ones I mean in College Pk. and probably have pics of them. Just like roebelenii the rupicola gene is usually an easy one to spot if you know what to look for. If you spend enough time looking at Phoenix palms in Fl. you sort of develop an eye for certain details and what specific species they correspond to. Maybe its that way everywhere else??? And that being said there are always palms that stump us all.

The 1st palm is definitely a recent cross, seems to have some sylvestris or on a lesser chance some pusilla in it. The leaflets are pointy and I would bet stiff to the touch. Walt I will have more on this tomorrow nite, give me something to do. I've been meaning to pull out Sasha Barrow's work on these anyway, have a certain species (paludosa) I need to research a bit.

[Walt]

JV and Gilbert. That's what I thought for years myself, that my greener, flatter plane of leaves had some rupicola in it. I have P. rupicola also; I had it for about the same length of time as my reclinatas.

My rupicola is a very slow grower for me, but I like the flatter, softer leaves.

With regard to hybridization, I read in a book (copyrighted in 1964) that there's probably not a phoenix genus palm in Florida that's pure, due to hybridization.

I like hybrids. I would like to get a reclinata x roebelenii. I have other phoenix species and I'm all but sure they are crosses of sorts.

[Walt]

Walt you are correct the light/cultural settings have nothing to do w/ their forms. The 2nd palm is what I would refer to as "typical" reclinata, at least for Fl. thats mainly what we see here. I'm not saying its 100% true, if grown in Fl. there could be anything hiding in the lineage from yrs back. I'd to see the petioles, I could tell if it has rupicola in it that way. There are some gorgeous rup X rec hybrids in Orlando. If Eric sees this he'll know the ones I mean in College Pk. and probably have pics of them. Just like roebelenii the rupicola gene is usually an easy one to spot if you know what to look for. If you spend enough time looking at Phoenix palms in Fl. you sort of develop an eye for certain details and what specific species they correspond to. Maybe its that way everywhere else??? And that being said there are always palms that stump us all.

The 1st palm is definitely a recent cross, seems to have some sylvestris or on a lesser chance some pusilla in it. The leaflets are pointy and I would bet stiff to the touch. Walt I will have more on this tomorrow nite, give me something to do. I've been meaning to pull out Sasha Barrow's work on these anyway, have a certain species (paludosa) I need to research a bit.

Funny you mention pussila. I had one and it was the slowest Phoenix species ever. I think I finally pitched it. I recall telling Bob Riffle that and he laughed (as if he knew they were slow).

I have, what John Bishock sold me and claimed, is a P. humilis. I've had it for five years now, I guess. I will have to take a photo of it and post it for yours/other's opinions. To my untrained eye it appears like P. reclinata, but does not have multiple trunks. I will post a pic tomorrow.

BTW, John once gave me a cut rate price on lots of phoenix palms, but he said he had no idea of the species. They were all hybrids of sorts. I didn't care because the price was right.

[iamjv]

Walt,

I too am a big phoenix lover and search for those hybrids. I have about 8 right now, many small and I can't wait till they start showing their characteristics... Jv

[mppalms]

Does anyone carry "true" (unhybridized) P. reclinata? I was in South Africa earlier this summer and the true form is very nice.

Jason

[tank]

Walt,

Here is my favorite of the Phoenix hybrids that I've seen I can't remember if this is P. canariensis x reclinata or P. reclinanta x canariensis. Its at Merrill Wilcox's house, so hopefully he'll clear it up.

[sonoranfans]

Tom, that is one heck of a good looking phx hybrid!!! At first glance it even looks like a coconut... is this at your place? Jv

I wish it was, but it is at a private residence in PHX, a member of the AZ palm and cycal assn. If I do break down and get another reclinata, it will be a rupicola cross if I can find it.

[Walt]

Walt,

Here is my favorite of the Phoenix hybrids that I've seen I can't remember if this is P. canariensis x reclinata or P. reclinanta x canariensis. Its at Merrill Wilcox's house, so hopefully he'll clear it up.

Jason, That is one fine looking palm. I think it would look better at my place, though!

[Walt]

I snapped this photo more than 5-1/2 years ago. I need to reshoot these palms to see if they've grown noticably more.

[Walt]

These are clumping palms, and in my opinion, sure have strong rupicola characteristics.

[iamjv]

Walt I'd have to agree with you those look like they have a lot of rup in them... good looking palms. Jv

[surgeon83]

I would like to get a reclinata x roebelenii.

If you're ever up this way, let me know in advance and you can pick some up. I pollinated my roebellenii with reclinata pollen a few years ago (if that is the order of the cross you are referring to). They are still small, <1ft with only about 3 character leaves on the biggest ones still in one-gallon pots or soda bottles.

I put three in the ground, which have been slow and are up to a max of 4 character leaves. I don't know if they'll clump or not (no sign so far).

[Tala]

good ol' John always spreading the gospel. Ordinarily I would take this chance to rail against the diversity killer thinly veiled as hybridity but with this genus it is a lost cause St. Jude wouldn't touch.

I once grew pusilla myself, wasted a decent sized juvenile to cold, that 23f low in 2/96 I think. I probably could have saved it but somehow didn't. I will say one thing for them, they have without question the sweetest tasting date you will ever wrap your tongue around.

only mentioned pusilla because the leaflet tips on your 1st palm are very pointy, almost spine-like. A few other Phoenix also do this: sylvestris, dactylifera, paludosa and to a lesser extent loureiri. Also you mention humilis, this a variety of loureiri. There are two var.'s, the other is loureiri var. loureiri. They are distinguished from one another by tannin cells. The latter has them (along leaflet margins & abaxial mid ribs), the former doesn't. So now you have something to go check on ... Been growing one here for yrs, often referred to as a "mini canariensis" for those who wonder about such things. These are very slow but like all in the genus a striking ornamental, and a more cold tolerant palm than pusilla, rupicola, etc. But not as cold tolerant as the Big 3 (dac's, syl's & canaries).

I guess if you twisted my arm I'd say sylvestris X reclinata for #1 due to irregular leaflet arrangement, green instead of blue/green color. And stay with "Fla. reclinata" for #2. I don't see any rupicola in that pic, would need to see the petiole/acanthophylls to verify. Not saying it isn't there but if present, it is buried beneath several generations.

Lastly if anyone reading has a reclinata that refuses to form any above ground stems what you may possess is P.caespitosa, a legitimate species that forms intense thickets in habitat, and remains acaulescent in form.

The roebelenii hybrids are an easy spot, that genetic code is dominant no matter the species it is mixed with. They are always soft, dainty palms that retain the quintessential roebelenii elegance. Your suspected rupicola hybrids in post 14 are just that - those look exactly like what we have up here.

Edited September 6, 2008 by Tala

[Walt]

I would like to get a reclinata x roebelenii.

If you're ever up this way, let me know in advance and you can pick some up. I pollinated my roebellenii with reclinata pollen a few years ago (if that is the order of the cross you are referring to). They are still small, <1ft with only about 3 character leaves on the biggest ones still in one-gallon pots or soda bottles.

I put three in the ground, which have been slow and are up to a max of 4 character leaves. I don't know if they'll clump or not (no sign so far).

Let me tell you, I rarily go outside Highlands county. However, if I do happen to go over to the Tampa area I will get in touch with you via PM at this forum. And thanks for the offer, BTW.

Yesterday I was going to take a photo of a clump of Phoenix palms that appear to be a roebelenii cross, but the wind was blowing too hard and the palm's fronds weren't suitable for a pic. I will try to take a photo of it then next time I drive by the palm in question.

[Walt]

good ol' John always spreading the gospel. Ordinarily I would take this chance to rail against the diversity killer thinly veiled as hybridity but with this genus it is a lost cause St. Jude wouldn't touch.

I once grew pusilla myself, wasted a decent sized juvenile to cold, that 23f low in 2/96 I think. I probably could have saved it but somehow didn't. I will say one thing for them, they have without question the sweetest tasting date you will ever wrap your tongue around.

only mentioned pusilla because the leaflet tips on your 1st palm are very pointy, almost spine-like. A few other Phoenix also do this: sylvestris, dactylifera, paludosa and to a lesser extent loureiri. Also you mention humilis, this a variety of loureiri. There are two var.'s, the other is loureiri var. loureiri. They are distinguished from one another by tannin cells. The latter has them (along leaflet margins & abaxial mid ribs), the former doesn't. So now you have something to go check on ... Been growing one here for yrs, often referred to as a "mini canariensis" for those who wonder about such things. These are very slow but like all in the genus a striking ornamental, and a more cold tolerant palm than pusilla, rupicola, etc. But not as cold tolerant as the Big 3 (dac's, syl's & canaries).

I guess if you twisted my arm I'd say sylvestris X reclinata for #1 due to irregular leaflet arrangement, green instead of blue/green color. And stay with "Fla. reclinata" for #2. I don't see any rupicola in that pic, would need to see the petiole/acanthophylls to verify. Not saying it isn't there but if present, it is buried beneath several generations.

Lastly if anyone reading has a reclinata that refuses to form any above ground stems what you may possess is P.caespitosa, a legitimate species that forms intense thickets in habitat, and remains acaulescent in form.

The roebelenii hybrids are an easy spot, that genetic code is dominant no matter the species it is mixed with. They are always soft, dainty palms that retain the quintessential roebelenii elegance. Your suspected rupicola hybrids in post 14 are just that - those look exactly like what we have up here.

Yes, the pusilla I had, had those pointed ends with no leaflets. It was a raggedy looking palm. It just didn't grow in the pot.

I checked my palm today which I thought was humilis, but I see it has some suckers emerging down low on the trunk (beginning of a trunk). The palm is planted in a field area and greas and P. selloum leaves obscured the base of the palm. I cut everything back this morning when I mowed the area. Now I surmise the palm is some hybrid of reclinata.

John sold me a batch of phoenix palms for a great price, just to move them. He told me he wasn't sure of the species (or mix). I bought what I thought was P. humilis with this batch.

This evening I will take some photos of these phoenix palms for you to comment on. Some have hardly grown at all, and they've been in the ground five years at least now; other's have grown normally.

I took the below photo five years ago. This is what I always thought was close to pure P. reclinata:

[tank]

Merrill is having some technical difficulties and has had some trouble posting to the board. He requesting I post this thread for him:

From Merrill

"Hi Jason:

Thank you for posting that photo of my favorite Phoenix hybrid, to wit: reclinata X canariensis. Before being thinned down, it had about 45 meristems. When about half its height shown there, a bad freeze killed all of the foliage. W' all the spines it would have been a monumental task to trim it. We lit it off, getting a spectacular fire of about 2-3 minutes, from which it resumed growth promptly, all spines having been burned off. Neither it nor its separated meristems have been able to produce new meristems as the clones age, unlike the reclinata parent.

Best Wishes,

merrill"

Merrill,

How cold did it get during the freeze you mentioned?

[merrill]

Hi, Jason:

Thank you for posting for me! This @%&$#* finally allowed me to post again. As remembered, that was a 10F freeze that year.

Thanks again,

merrill

[Kris]

Dear Friends

lovely topic and even i happen to be a phoenix palm lover,but Walt's 3nd phoenix still that with Rupicola tint in it is fabulous...

thanks for the fentastic visuals_gentlemen.

lots of love,

Kris

[NCpalmqueen]

Can any of you eagle-eyed persons tell me if this is a reclinata or a cross? I can get other pics if needed.

thanks

[iamjv]

Cindy, good looking palm... more shots would help as well as more info. Are the leaflets stiff or rather soft and flexible? They appear flexible in this shot. Any sign of suckers yet? My first guess it's a hybrid, maybe with rupicola???

[NCpalmqueen]

jv

Thanks. The leaflets are soft and flexible, and no sign of suckers. I can get a closeup shot tomorrow if needed.

Cindy, good looking palm... more shots would help as well as more info. Are the leaflets stiff or rather soft and flexible? They appear flexible in this shot. Any sign of suckers yet? My first guess it's a hybrid, maybe with rupicola???

[Walt]

Dear Friends

lovely topic and even i happen to be a phoenix palm lover,but Walt's 3nd phoenix still that with Rupicola tint in it is fabulous...

thanks for the fentastic visuals_gentlemen.

lots of love,

Kris

Hi Kris,

That particular palm looks better in real life (than in photo). This palm has never shown the least bit of magnesium deficiency, either. I have a straight P. rupicola that shows magnesium deficiency, even though I give it extra magnesium.

Walt

[Walt]

Phoenix growth rates:

The four below palms were all basically the same size when I bought them about five years ago.

John Bishock, who sold them to me didn't know the species of any of them, except one which is said was Phoenix humilus.

Two of the palms have hardly grown at all.

This palm appears to be mostly P. reclinata due to the suckering:

This palm was supposed to be P. humilus, but it's also suckering, but with very small suckers.

Have no idea what specie/hybrid this palm is, but is is very, very slow growing.

This palm is also very, very slow growing. If I were to have the last two palms in my main landscaping I would have pulled them years ago for being way to slow growing.

[merrill]

Hi, Cindy:

Hope all is well with both you and your palms! The palm in your post #23 reminds me of one of those obscure Phoenix spp. with the leaflets VERY close together. Perhaps someone w/ a better memory can bring up the species. The closely packed leaflets are very attractive, IMHO. BTW, how far from I-95 is your palm collection?

Best Wishes,

merrill

[iamjv]

Here is a picture of one of the best looking reclinata X canariensis (???) (palm on the right) that I've seen. This one is in Santa Barbara CA. Next time I get out there, I'll be trying to collect some seed... only have one seedling from that palm growing now. Jv

[NCpalmqueen]

Hi Merrill

Boy it was a hot one up here today...reminded me of Florida. I am about an hour from I-95, west of Raleigh

I figured that my 'reclinata' was not true. It is nice to touch a Phoenix, though, and not get jabbed.

Here is a picture of one of the best looking reclinata X canariensis (???) (palm on the right) that I've seen. This one is in Santa Barbara CA. Next time I get out there, I'll be trying to collect some seed... only have one seedling from that palm growing now. Jv

[merrill]

Hi, Johnny:

Where you are, is it possible make the original cross of P. reclinata X P. canariensis? This would be better than trying to cross two P. reclinata X P. canariensis of opposite sexes, altho the segregation of the latter alternative might give interesting variants. It might take quite a few acres and years to sort thru the latter tho.

Hope all is well with you and yours.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[iamjv]

Hey Merrill... no doubt going with two seperate plants of each species would be the best way to get better results. I often like collecting seed from nice mother plants and just seeing what naturally produced... All is well here, hope it is with you as well. Jv

[Phoenikakias]

Bump! What a thread! Here's my contribution. 5 plants from the same seed batch from a reclinata that is, which got pollinated by a reclinata hybrid. Resulted seeds were of two distinct sizes and  I sorted seeds apart according to their size and planted those seedlings together (due to lack of adequate pots), which originated from same sized seeds. And now I have three plants  of one kind and two plants of another!

[Phoenikakias]