Unknown sabal species

[Walt]

I germinated this palm about three years ago from seed collected in Cancun, Mexico, given to me by a friend who vacationed there. She showed me a photo of the palm but I had no idea what species it was. It definitely didn't look like S. mauritiforumis.

I also have another sabal palm supposedly germinated from the same seed, but it is still in a pot and hasn't grown as fast and is much smaller. However, the one in the pot has a distinct heel root, whereas the one in the photo doesn't (as far as I can tell).

Can anyone make a best guess based on the below photo what species sabal this is?

[Eric in Orlando]

Probably Sabal yapa, it is native to the Yucatan.

[mpiodi]

Looks like mine which was identified by the experts of the forum as Sabal yapa

[FRITO]

Walt,

That is a nice looking sabal. 3 years from seed? not bad growth at all for Sabal.

heres a previous Sabal Yapa thread. the take away point for me was that there are two forms: large and small as Ken notes. : http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=13210

Any cold damage experience Walt?

[Walt]

Before posting this post I consulted my copy of The Encyclopedia of Cultivated Palms for what sabal species might be found in Cancun. I considered S. yapa, but according to the book, S. yapa's leaf color is uniformly green on both sides.

This lead me to believe my palm might be S. mauritiiformis, as the book says its leaf is olive to deep green above and silvery lighter green, sometimes with an almost bluish hue beneath. My two palms have this color.

This is the leaf underside of my planted palm:

This is the leaf underside of my still potted palm (note the heel root):

I'm still puzzled as to why the planted palm has no heel root but the potted palm does. I planted the heeless root palm a year ago and I know I didn't bury the heel root, as I've read not to.

This is my S. mauritiiformis palm. I don't believe it has a heel root. I noted a slightly bluish-silvery look to the leaf underside as opposed to the leaf above side, but not as distinct as my potted and small planted palm.

In any event, I will just keep letting them grow and see what transpires down the road.

[Ken Johnson]

Dat is exactly what I was going to say Walt. Actually, first I was going to say what a pretty palm that is and how it has a special look that must come from being in YOUR garden. A sort of special Northern look.

I know that mautit. is the most wide spread Sabal in the group and I would not be surprised if it was found in Cancun.

They also grom in Camarun.Te he he he.

P.S. The heel is not a root. It is the trunk! It will show or not show above ground depending on growing conditions.

[Walt]

Luke,

You must have posted seconds before my last posting. I noted in that post thread link you gave me, someone said that small potted sabal looked like S. mauritiiformis. I even noted the bluish leaf color on one of the leaves.

I'm thinking my palms may in fact be S. mauritiiformis and not yapa. I don't care in any event. I just want to know for sure. I have a photo of the palm in Cancun the seeds came from, so I will try to post it later.

The small planted palm in my first post went through last winter with no problems. However, my lowest low was only 32 degrees (windy). Further, I planted that sabal under very tall tree canopy. The canopy is sparse; however, but it should help hold up the low temperature some on radiational cooling nights. 95% or more of my coldest nights are radiational cooling nights.

My other larger planted S. mauritiiformis has been in the ground for about four years, although I've had it since January of 2002, but pot grew it for a number of years. It has never been frost burned or cold damaged to date. The coldest it probably saw was 27 degrees (radiational) on the morning of 2/14/06.

Walt,

That is a nice looking sabal. 3 years from seed? not bad growth at all for Sabal.

heres a previous Sabal Yapa thread. the take away point for me was that there are two forms: large and small as Ken notes. : http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=13210

Any cold damage experience Walt?

[Walt]

Ken,

Here is the palm in Cancun where the seeds I planted were taken from.

Not a heel root? I just incorrectly assumed it was a heel root as it looked similar to the heel root on my K. oliviformis (which since died of a fungal disease), unless that wasn't a heel root, too:

Dat is exactly what I was going to say Walt. Actually, first I was going to say what a pretty palm that is and how it has a special look that must come from being in YOUR garden. A sort of special Northern look.

I know that mautit. is the most wide spread Sabal in the group and I would not be surprised if it was found in Cancun.

They also grom in Camarun.Te he he he.

P.S. The heel is not a root. It is the trunk! It will show or not show above ground depending on growing conditions.

[Ken Johnson]

The palm in Mexico does not look like the steriotypical maurit. that I have seen in cultivation but that does not surprise me. Maybe it does not get fertilizer. Also looks like it has lots of exposure and not much water. Cancun is like that I guess.

Pix of the underside of the leaf compaired with the upper side of the same leaf is a good IDer. Yapa can be light green in color and if looking only at a pic of the bottom of a leaf could through you off.

And. Heels that form on palms are always trunks. They are evolved to help anchor the trunk deeper in the ground, I think. ( gotta ask someone real old if they know...like twenty million years or so?)

[Tala]

Walt you've a S.yapa, there are two distinct varieties. One has small fronds that are split but not so deep, green on top, a more glaucous green below. These are the "small leaf" var., and if you got FTG there is a large group of them in the lowlands. But your palm is the "large leaf" var., very similar to maurit but leaflets aren't split down to the hastula and there is not as many segments, thus the existing ones are wider/larger. And like yours they are noticeably blue underneath (like a maurit). The yapa palm is native all over the Yucatan peninsula, esp. in cleared areas. The Kopsick arboretum in St. Pete has a very nice large specimen of large leaf yapa. They are beaut's, slightly more cold (and full sun) tolerant than maurits but still get damaged in mid 20's (here anyway).

dig around w/ your fingers near the base of the palm, you will find it's heel, they all have them. Most palms that have this will pull themselves down into the ground (natural protection from weather extremities, herbivores, etc.). Its obviously easier for them to sink in the ground than in a pot.

Along the heel subject has anyone noticed this? Walt mentioned K.oliviformis, and I've seen this on Ravenea glauca and Dypsis cabadae as well but these don't make the same kind of heel as say Sabal, or Acrocomia, etc. I think it functions the same way, and the above ground growth actually pushes away from the heel but its not pointy, or well above the ground. The heels on these seem to stay right around ground level and don't sink so much.

Edited October 1, 2008 by Tala

[Walt]

I'm pleased if my two palms (one in ground the other still in pot) are S. yapa, as that just increases my species count. Had they been S. mauritiiformis I would have been pleased also, as I like the one I have which I got from you in January of 2002. I just wish the sabal genus wasn't so damn slow. I have a Sabal cusiarum I got from Mike Dahme in June of 2003 and it hasn't grown much at all. Same for Sabal domingensis and bermudana.

You may notice in the photo of my S. mauritiiformis you can see a small Corypha utan. I bought this from John Bishock going on three years now and it's a slow grower for me also. But even slower is a Corypha umbrculifera I bought 5-6 years ago. It's no larger today than when I bought it! And lastly, I have two copernicia alba that all but refuse to grow, even after more than five years.

I just this weekend planted out three Sabal uresana I grew from seed germinated about two years ago. I sure don't expect much out of them for years to come.

Walt you've a S.yapa, there are two distinct varieties. One has small fronds that are split but not so deep, green on top, a more glaucous green below. These are the "small leaf" var., and if you got FTG there is a large group of them in the lowlands. But your palm is the "large leaf" var., very similar to maurit but leaflets aren't split down to the hastula and there is not as many segments, thus the existing ones are wider/larger. And like yours they are noticeably blue underneath (like a maurit). The yapa palm is native all over the Yucatan peninsula, esp. in cleared areas. The Kopsick arboretum in St. Pete has a very nice large specimen of large leaf yapa. They are beaut's, slightly more cold (and full sun) tolerant than maurits but still get damaged in mid 20's (here anyway).

dig around w/ your fingers near the base of the palm, you will find it's heel, they all have them. Most palms that have this will pull themselves down into the ground (natural protection from weather extremities, herbivores, etc.). Its obviously easier for them to sink in the ground than in a pot.

Along the heel subject has anyone noticed this? Walt mentioned K.oliviformis, and I've seen this on Ravenea glauca and Dypsis cabadae as well but these don't make the same kind of heel as say Sabal, or Acrocomia, etc. I think it functions the same way, and the above ground growth actually pushes away from the heel but its not pointy, or well above the ground. The heels on these seem to stay right around ground level and don't sink so much.