Huge Palm, Cycad & Tropical Plant Sale

[Phil]

E. arenarius continued:

Here's a picture on the Net from the Cycad Society webpage of a female E. arenarius:

And here's a picture of a mature plant in a domestic garden in So Cal:

Let's talk about color of the leaves. It is variable. But it is always blue to green. Some are more blue and some are frankly green. It is common for an E. arenarius to throw new "powdery" leaves (hint of blue) and then turn green. But, among collectors there is such a thing as the real "blue arenarius". In the wild there are (were) populations of E. arenarius that shared much the same color and appearance as E. horridus. These are felt to be the true "blue arenarius"; but they had the cone of E. arenarius, not of horridus. I am not going to get into the often heated argument over who's got the true "blue" one. Rather, I'll show some pictures to demonstrate the different leaf colors:

Here's a specimen for sale from our Nursery. It has a touch of blue to its green color:

Here's another plant outdoors at the nursery with a hint of blue:

E. arenarius continued:

Phil

[Phil]

E. arenarius continued:

Now a domestic plant with even more blue. This one's a female:

Wows! Even more blue:

And here's an E. horridus---not! It's a blue arenarius, approaching the powdery color of E. horridus:

So you can see the wide variability of color of E. arenarius. Culture of E. arenarius is like most other Encephalartos. Well-drained sandy soil and don't overwater. They tolerated temps quite easily into the mid-twenties F. and will survive at least five degrees lower. Protection from bitter cold would be needed. In coastal areas they tolerate full sun. If you are far inland, some protection from direct sun may be needed.

I'll now show you a few pics of plants we have for sale at the nursery (see photos above as well). Below is a 15g plant:

E. arenarius continued:

Phil

[Phil]

E. arenarius continued:

I'd estimate we have about 500 E. arenarius for sale. Here's one outside in full sun in a 20g container:

And below is an extreme closeup of a blue one we have for sale to show the powder on the leaflets:

And here's a more juvenile 7 year old plant in a 7g container::

Of note, Encephalartos are quite easy to ship, even in the containers. You might need a phytosanitary permit to your state, but we can easily arange this. On plants like the one above, we would ship it right in its container.

I hope you enjoyed our excursion with E. arenarius. Contact me if you are seeking this species. It's very easy to grow and not overly big. Thanks for reading.

Phil

[Phil]

Good Morning.

No comments about Encephalartos arenarius. Surprising.

I'll try another cycad. If you don't like this one, try putting a mirror in front of your mouth and check for a pulse, because this species is gorgeous.

Ceratozamia miqueliana is a species that shows some variation in the size and shape of its leaves and leaflets. It is native to mountainous regions of the Gulf side of Mexico at altitudes up to about 2000 feet. It lives in humid and cool understory forest. It is very easy for us to grow in the coastal area of Southern California. There are reports of different populations further south. It is not a large cycad. The caudex is never over two to three feet and the crown of leaves is typically about six feet wide. Some in my garden are smaller and in some conditions they can be up to ten feet. The striking thing about this species is the powdery look of the new leaves when they emerge and in good forms, the wide leaflets. The leaves are bluish. This powdery blue color is particularly noticeable when the leaves are new. With age, this can fade. These leaflets are flat and reasonably thick to the touch. There are no serations at the edges. The petiole is prickley. The leaflets are widely spaced. The nearest species to Ceratozamia miqueliana is the unbelievably rare C. euryphyllidia (there's not one picture of this species on the Internet).

Below is a picture of Cz miqueliana in a domestic planting.

Below is a closer look at the leaves of the same plant. Notice the unique blue-green color of the leaves, a characteristic of this species:

Below is a picture by the famed Ken Hill at the Cycad Pages website. In my experience, this is a large crown for this species:

Cones of all Ceratozamias have little prongs or spines on them. Below is a picture of the male cone of Cz miqueliana, also by Ken Hill at the Cycad Pages:

If you look carefully, you can see the spines.

Ceratozamia miqueliana continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Ceratozamia miqueliana continued:

The female cone is also spiny (characteristic of Cz's). Below is another picture by Ken Hill from the cycad pages of the female cone:

Culture in most gardens will be in filtered light. With low light the crowns can spread more horizontally. Drainage should be good. This species can tolerate temperatures into the upper twenties with no problems. As with all cycads in Southern California, setting seeds requires manual transer of the male pollen to a receptive female.

I mention this species because right now we have coming on Ceratozamia miqueliana seedlings. These are extremely rare and seldom available. Price is currently$76. Contact me if interested. Sorry, but no pictures yet.

Phil

[freakypalmguy]

I used the mirror method Phil and I could not get it to fog as it was covered in too much drool

So you say Encephalartos arenarius might need some protection in the inland areas. I have heard this from others as well. I have one verified E. arenarius that has not flushed in two years since planting. It is in full, all day Temecula sun. It has slowly acquired a yellowish tinge, which I'm guessing confirms it's need for some protection.

I also have another that I bought as E. trispinosus, but I have had many comment that it looks like E. arenarius. It is also in full all day sun and has not flushed in two years since planting. It has a sort of washed out look as well. I will get a pic up to see what you think in a bit when the wife wakes up(camera is in the room).

Will too much sun cause them to not flush? I am going to also try more water when the temps get hot, as I might be under watering for fear of rotting them.

[BS Man about Palms]

Very Cool Phil. You have a PM.

[joe_OC]

Phil, I am staying away from Cycads for now, but that Ceratozamia miqueliana had me drooling as well!

[Phil]

Joe, Bill and Matt,

Thanks for the feedback. BTW, very limited numbers available.

I thought I'd show a few more shots of one of my coning females.

Ceratozamia miquelliana, outdoors in San Diego seeing all the weather and challenges but doing great:

A leaf closeup:

And a female cone. Note the spines:

:

You probably don't realize it, but in this thread you'll see more pictures of C. miqueliana than anywhere else on the Internet. It is indeed rare and very hard to find pictures to view.

Phil

[LJG]

Must be new Phil. When I was there a few weeks ago I asked if you had this plant. I will stop by. My C. whitelockiana needs a friend.

Now find me Ceratozamia zoquorum .

[freakypalmguy]

Hi Phil, here are a few of what I thought was Encephalartos trispinosus that some think is E. arenarius. It is in full sun and has not flushed in two years. The caudex is firm and it has pumped out a lot of coraloid roots. What are your thoughts?

[LJG]

Matt, I always look at the leaflet plane. If the lobes/"thorns" are twisted off plane, it is more like E. horridus or E. trinsinosus. Where as in a general sense, E. arenarius the lobes are more planer (is that a word?). Your pic #3 shows it to be more Tri then Arenarius. Also, Arenarius cranks in the ground. I get two flushes a year of mine. My Tri? Sometimes only one every two years. In fact it has not flushed in two years but the caudex is still hard and healthy.

I am sure the guys that know what they are talking about can correct me but I think yours are Tris. There is so much variation in Tris it is hard to keep track.

[Phil]

Matt,

Classic: Uno, Dos, Tres Spinas. Len is right. E. trispinosus.

It should grow out of any funk it's seeing. Water it right.

And, Len: Sorry I forgot to mention them. Now you have to come back.

Phil

[freakypalmguy]

Thank you Len and Phil, I have been uncertain about this one for a long time. I'm getting a little better at I.D.ing Cycads, but it is still very confusing. I am hoping for a nice flush this spring.

Matt

[Urban Rainforest]

Good Morning.

No comments about Encephalartos arenarius. Surprising.

I'll try another cycad. If you don't like this one, try putting a mirror in front of your mouth and check for a pulse, because this species is gorgeous.

Ceratozamia miqueliana is a species that shows some variation in the size and shape of its leaves and leaflets. It is native to mountainous regions of the Gulf side of Mexico at altitudes up to about 2000 feet. It lives in humid and cool understory forest. It is very easy for us to grow in the coastal area of Southern California. There are reports of different populations further south. It is not a large cycad. The caudex is never over two to three feet and the crown of leaves is typically about six feet wide. Some in my garden are smaller and in some conditions they can be up to ten feet. The striking thing about this species is the powdery look of the new leaves when they emerge and in good forms, the wide leaflets. The leaves are bluish. This powdery blue color is particularly noticeable when the leaves are new. With age, this can fade. These leaflets are flat and reasonably thick to the touch. There are no serations at the edges. The petiole is prickley. The leaflets are widely spaced. The nearest species to Ceratozamia miqueliana is the unbelievably rare C. euryphyllidia (there's not one picture of this species on the Internet).

Below is a picture of Cz miqueliana in a domestic planting.

Phil, There is a pic of Ceratozamia Euryphyllidia On the virtual Cycad website and your right it is one of the most amazing Cycads ever!

Stevo

Below is a closer look at the leaves of the same plant. Notice the unique blue-green color of the leaves, a characteristic of this species:

Below is a picture by the famed Ken Hill at the Cycad Pages website. In my experience, this is a large crown for this species:

Cones of all Ceratozamias have little prongs or spines on them. Below is a picture of the male cone of Cz miqueliana, also by Ken Hill at the Cycad Pages:

If you look carefully, you can see the spines.

Ceratozamia miqueliana continued:

Phil

[Darold Petty]

Here is a photo showing the smooth leaflet margins of C. miqueliana. The foliage is green rather than bluish because it was grown indoors.

[joe_OC]

Hi Darold,

What is the growth rate like? How many flushes do you get a year?

[MattyB]

Phil,

Still enjoying the thread thoroughly, thanks! Can you possibly do one on E. eugene maraisii? Do you take requests? I have been given one as a gift and I'm curious as to why the baby leaves look different than mature ones. Or do I have a different cycad? Either way, it seems like a real beautiful cycad, and being inexperienced in Cycads, I could use some tutilage. They're slowly growing on me. Soon I'll be hooked.

Thanks,

Matt

[Darold Petty]

Hello Joe, I used to get only one flush per year. I grew it from a seedling to a 6 inch caudex in 6 or 8 years. (The seedling came from Phil!) I sold this plant two years ago. As you can see this one is a male. It used to cone more frequently than it would flush new foliage. I really liked this plant but don't have a suitable outdoor climate for it.

[Phil]

Good morning,

Thanks for all the feedback. Put away the mirrors. First, Steve is right. Check out this picture at the PACSOF website by Tom Broome, a fellow cycad grower and friend:

Ceratozamia euyphyllidia:

You can see why some of us get so excited about these cycads.

Matt in Temecula: Yes, it looks like a trispinosus. I'd wait and see how it does over time. Of course, give it fertilizer and adequate water, etc. It should take off. Sometimes cycads will establish roots before heads, and that can ultimately be a good thing.

Darold: Thanks for the photos. I had forgotten that plant. Good you got a picture before it found a new home.

Len, Thanks for your educated comments.

Before we leave cycads for a while, I thought I'd show you another wide leaf cycad that will leave you breathless. Zamia dressleri. This shot was taken by a friend of mine, Robert Martin, in habitat.

So, now that we've looked at a few "wide leaf" ceratozamia cycads, what about a skinny leaf one. I have a few shots of a quite unusual species, seldom seen in nurseries. And, it is unique in that it has very thin leaflets. Ceratozamia zaragozae is a high elevation, smaller species native to Eastern Mexico. It is known to grow at elevations of almost up to a mile. It's caudex is small and its leaves are twisted with very thin leaflets. They typically have a length of two to three feet. The new leaves emerge brown and mature to shiny green. The petioles have very few prickles or spines if any.

Ceratozamia zaragozae:

Below is a picture by Darin Yeatman from the PlantaPalm website. This containerized plant shows some of the characteristics of the plant, but I want to make a few comments on these two photos and how to identify this species. See next thread.

Ceratozamia zaragozae continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Ceratozamia Zaragozae continued:

If you compare these two photos above, you'll find that the first photo above best shows a hallmark of this plant that is important in identifying it. That is that the leaves are indeed plumose; the leaflets come at random locations along the stem. Imagine this: say you have a thin leaf cycad with a flat leaf and you twirl the entire leaf by rotating it. It would give a "plumose" looking leaf after you did this. But, if you spun it back and untwirled it, it would be a flat leaf again. Do you see what I'm saying? But, with Cz Zaragozae, if you untwirl it, it is still plumose. Why is this important? Because it is this trait that helps you distinguish it from Ceratozamia norstogii.

Below is a picture of C. norstogii (previously known as Ceratozamia plumosa):

I agree that, with photos, it's really hard to see this. But, if you get the concept, you can apply it when you actually see plants in person. Let's look again at Ceratozamia norstogii. Here there is less "fluffiness" and you can see that it's a flat leaf with a bit of twirl:

Below is a mature Cz zaragozae in cone with leaflets showing the twirl and random positioning of the long, thin pointed leaflets:

There is another thing that helps you identify the C. zaragozae. Look carefully at the stem of the leaf above. You'll note there's hardly a spine or prickle on the petiole to be seen. Ceratozamia norstogii has a petiole/rhachis that has prickles and is spirally twisted. Also, the leaves of Cz norstogii are longer and the leaflets are longer.

Here is a picture from PlantNet/Cycad pages showing a closeup of a female cone of C. norstogii. But, I want you to look at the petiole and see the spines:

Ceratozamia zaragozae/norstogii continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Ceratozamia zaragozae/norstogii continued:

Below is a picture of Cz norstogii in habitat (photo by John Otto) showing that the caudex of C. norstogii is also much larger than zaragozae.

And here's another shot of norstogii:

And now let's again look at C. zaragozae. This shot from PACSOA gives a fine look at the plumose leaves:

Another PACSOA photo showing more of the entire plant:

Ceratozamia zaragozae/norstogii continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Ceratozamia zaragozae/norstogii continued:

So, let's sumarize a few of the differences of these two similar species. Overall size of the C. zaragozae is smaller. The leaves are shorter, the leaflets are shorter, and the stem is smaller. With C. zaragozae, an "untwirled" leaf would still be plumose and fluffy. And, there is a lack (or near lack) of prickles on the petiole of the zaragozae.

Now let's look at a small nursery plant. Remember that adult characteristics take time to develope. Below is a one gallon Ceratozamia zaragozae at our Nursery:

Here's the base of this plant:

And a closeup look at the leaves of this juvenile plant (sorry, a bit out of focus):

And one final PACSOA look at the leaves of Ceratozamia zaragozae:

It's a very rare cycad and almost impossible to find. I have found culture quite easy. It is most commonly grown in filtered light but right along the coast can take full sun.

And, finally, MattyB. I didn't ignore your request. It will come soon, but remember the palm lover rumblings out there are getting louder.

Phil

[Phil]

Addendum, Ceratozamia norstogii:

If you begin to like cycads and start to look at them in private gardens and public botanical garden plantings, you undoubtedly will get some confusion about the thin leaf Ceratozamias. Why is this? Quite simply, over the past twenty or thirty years, the names have changed.

I'll try to give you a little piece of this story to help. When I started with cycads 30 years ago, the fluffy, plumose, upright Ceratozamia was known as Cz "plumosa". That's how many of us learned this species. We heard that an alternative (and perhaps correct name) was Cz norstogii, but most in the trade called it plumosa. Well, it finally earned ("re-earned") it's true name and recognition as Ceratozamia norstogii. I showed pictures of this previously. But, there was a problem.

There is another species that exists in the same habitat of pine-oak forests in Chiapas, Mexico. But, it looks different. You have the upright, twirled, plumose thin leaf C. norstogii and next door a species that is also thin leaf but has arching, symetrical, and flat leaves. In 2001 taxonomists published the new name of this latter one. It was called Ceratozamia mirandae. It's leaves are not twisted, slightly arched, slightly keeled and more or less flat when you look at them. They have spiney petioles. And the leaves are not upright as with norstogii.

You might ask, "Why do you even bring this up?". The reason is that, guaranteed, you will have confusion over these species. I would anticipate that even some experienced cycad people still don't have these species squared away.

Below are some pictures of Ceratozamia mirandae (as I see it) from my nursery, in a 5g size:

C. mirandae leaf:

This plant's base:

And petiole:

Ceratozamia mirandae continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Thin Leaf Ceratozamias, continued:

In Loran Whitelock's book on cycads he has pictures of Ceratozamia mirandae for those who care to look. I went onto the Net this AM to find a photograph of a mature specimen, but could not find one. I suspect this is because this name is relatively new and hasn't quite caught on.

So, is this the end of the thin leaf Ceratozamia story? Absolutely not. There are quite a few other species including C. kuesteriana. But, I'm not going to go there right now because I want to get back to palms. I might also add that, in the past several years, there is one or perhaps more newly described species of thin leaf Ceratozamias from Chiapas. So, the story gets even more complicated. You know, those taxonomists are busy at work. The more you look the more you find. But, in my last post at least now you know how to tell the difference between Cz norstogii and Cz mirandae.

Speaking of things changing, who has heard of a type of palm named "Vonitra"? If you got back about fifteen years ago, this was a genus of palms from Madagascar. In the old Palms of the World by McCurrach, this genus was discribed as pinnate palms from Madagascar, some single trunk, others suckering with some having firbrous hair fibers on the trunk. Well, we've come a long ways since then. John Dransfield regrouped this genus into Dypsis. Many of you have heard of Dypsis fibrosa, Dypsis crinita and Dypis utilus. JD refers to these as the "Vonitra group", still giving reference a bit to the old genus name.

Dypsis utilus is one from this group. It is a very robust palm, reaching twenty to over fifty feet tall. Like some in this "Vonitra group", it branches above the ground. This is not to say that it cannot have basal suckers, but this dichotomous branching is indeed an interesting characteristic of this group of plants. A few more interesting things about Dypsis utilus (and other species in this group) is the fibrous, shaggy, somewhat untidy upper trunk. They also throw a red colored new leaf.

Dypis utilius (photo at PACSOA), showing mulitple stems:

Note the branching above the ground.

And those shaggy fibers (PACSOA):

Another member of this group is Dypsis fibrosa, a much smaller tree. It is solitary or clustering and about ten to thirty feet tall. It has a brown-red newly emerging leaf and like others can branch above the ground.

Dypis fibrosa (PACSOA):

And a picture of it's shaggy fibers (PACSOA):

"Vonitra group" continued:

Phil

[Phil]

"Vonitra group" continued:

And then there is Dypsis crinita. Dransfield describes it as common along rivers in north and northeast Madagascar. It also has dichotomous branching, stem fibers and shag, and a newly emerging red colored leaf. It is typically larger than fibrosa and gets to about forty feet or more.

Dypsis crinita, PACSOA:

And a picture from a domestic planting:

And then there is the smallest species of this "Vonitra group", Dypis pusilla. It tends to be single trunk, under ten feet height, but still having the shaggy hairs on the trunk.

Our good friend Bo Lundkvist posted this picture of Dypsis pusilla at his website. You'll note it is smaller and has that "red" new leaf:

So, now you have the basics on the "Vonitra group", correct? Not quite, at least from the viewpoint of knowing what you might see in a nursery or even your garden. There is a problem. When we nurserymen were getting seeds in the old days, the names were confused and often we got seeds of one species with the name of another. And, this confusion continues right up to this day. We can get a good idea of what they are when they are bigger, but when small it's harder.

With this in mind, below is a good sized six to seven year old "Dypsis pusilla". Let's first show the pictures:

]

"Vonitra group" continued:

Phil

[Phil]

"Vonitra group" continued:

And here is the base of this "Dypsis pusilla":

I got in the seed as Dypsis pusilla. But, I understand the confusion among seedsmen and growers with this group. So, can I be absolutely sure that's what it is? Not quite. I would say it's "suppose" to be Dypsis pusilla, but we might have to wait a few years to know for sure. If it is, it will be a smaller specimen.

As you know, I like to tell stories with plants and species. And, I love it when it's not quite as you might think it is. We all get there sooner or later. And, we will. At least I can rest assured that now you know more when someone says "Look at that Vonitra!".

If I get time today, I'll take some pictures of another species from this "Vonitra group" and show you how they look different in the 15g stage.

Take care.

Phil

[Phil]

"Vonitra group" continued:

I took a few pictures of Dypsis utilus at the greenhouse. This plant is in a 15g and about ten feet tall. It was outdoors during the winter of 2007. It wasn't touched by 25 degrees F. The first picture is of the whole tree. Sorry for the overexposure of the background, but I didn't have time today to really take the tree inside for better photos:

The following picture is the leaf of this Dypsis utilus. This particular tree didn't have a new red leaf to show off:

This picture is of the base of the same tree. Notice the shagy trunk. As you saw in earlier pictures, it eventually becomes brown wood. This particular plant hasn't shown the dichotomous branching, but we've got bigger ones that have had double trunks for years.:

The following picture is of the crown of the Dypsis utilus above. Note the unarmed petiole, the shaggy fibers at the trunk and the interesting hanging material at the crown. This spiralling and dangling object undoubtedly has a name, but I don't offhand know of it. It's sort of interesting looking:

If you look at the previous posts, this is a very large tree and typically branching. If wanted, I can take photographs of other species. However, with what you see I think you get a feel for these "Vonitra group" Dypsis. And, we have them all for sale in many sizes up to boxes.

Til later,

Phil

[Phil]

Good morning.

No comments on the "Vonitra group" of Dypsis. This is surprising because, for those of us in So Cal, these things are pretty darn tough. People jump up and down about Dypis "orange crush" and they this plant is probably going to prove to be marginal here in the best of areas. The Vonitra guys are a group of Dypsis that many people can grow. Could it just be a "beauty" thing; this group has less appeal because they are shaggy and have no color? Perhaps. But, think about how many mid to large-sized, full sun, suckering and unarmed species there are for you to grow? This group helps fill that void.

In any case, let's discuss another two species that people have trouble telling apart. At the onset, I will say it's a bit difficult to distinguish these two species. They are: Chamaedorea glaucifolia and Chamaedorea plumosa.

Chamaedorea glaucifolia has been a mainstay in the nursery trade for decades. Like some of our thin leaf Ceratozamias discussed the other days, this species is from Chiapas, Mexico. It is a single stem, thin, quick growing species that natively grows at elevations of two to three thousand feed and because of this is quite cold hardy. The name "glaucifolia" comes from the glaucous, white powder seen on the stem, crownshaft and slightly on the leaves.

One might ask: "Why are we discussing this species? I know all about it". If you do, then jump to another thread. But, remember there's always more to know.

Below is a 12 foot specimen in a 15g container at the nursery. This photo will get the discussion started:

You'll first note the very thin trunk. All the texts say this species gets to "twelve feet". They actually get to more like 14 to 16 feet. They flower before too many years and are an easy species to set seeds. They hybridize with lots of other species. If you get seeds on your female and didn't control pollination, there's a good chance you'll have a hybrid if you have lots of Chamaedorea in your garden.

The leaflets are very thin and like long blades of grass. Below is a PACSOA photo showing leaves of a not-yet-mature plant. You'll note the thin leaflets that are a gray-green color (the books say they are green but they definitely have a bit of gray in them), irregularly grouped, and a bit plumose in their leaf orientation. Remember that this means leaflets come off the petiole are different angles:

Below is a Fairchild website photo of a larger plant. Not the characteristics of the leaf. This picture also shows a male blossom:

Here's another shot of the leaf. Why am I showing these? Because it's one of the things that helps you tell glaucifolia from plumosa (Fairchild photo):

Chamaedorea glaucifolia/plumosa continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Chamaedorea glaucifolia/plumosa continued:

Remember what "glauci..." means. Here's a pictue of the crown shaft of a Chamaedorea glaucifolia. I rubbed off a bit of the glaucous powder to make the point. It's sort of cool stuff; sort of like a gummy talcum powder. This powder would have made good white facial cosmetic or war paint:

Now let's look at trunk diameter. You can see from this shot from PlantaPalm website that the trunk is quite thin, perhaps an inch or so:

Here's a great Fairchild shot of the thin trunk. Note the debri that hangs onto the rings of the trunk. You'll see this with C. glaucifolia. It could be old parts of stems or debri from flower stalks. Most importantly note the diameter of the trunk:

Now let's move on to the very similar Chamaedorea plumosa. When Don Hodel published his book on Chamaedorea in 1992, C. plumosa had not yet been described. Since that time this species has entered into the palm world and nursery inventories. It has even been called the "Baby Queen Palm" as an attempt to make sales to people who don't like the size of the Queen Palm. Remember that common names' function is sometimes just a name slapped on by a commercial entity to market any given species.

Below is a picture from the Dipbot website:

Chamaedorea glaucifolia/plumosa continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Cham. glaucifolia/plumosa continued:

If you look at the last picture, the first thing you'll see is the striking resemblence to C. glaucifolia. It also comes from Chiapas, Mexico (same as glaucifolia) and is reasonably cold hardy like glaucifolia. It also has a thin trunk, blades of grass-like leaflets and clustering of the leaflets. It is also plumose like glaucifolia. But, there are differences. The trunk is thicker, well grown there are more leaflets, the leaves are longer and more impressive and it tolerates sun better than glaucifolia. You can see why it was marketed as the "Baby Queen".

Here's a very fine photo posted by the nursery in Florida, "D'asign Source":

Let's take a closer look at the differences. Below is a nice photo at the PACSOA website. Notice the number of leaflets and how they are very "plumose". This is more prominent than the glaucifolia.

Here's a photo from our gallery showing the same:

Now let's compare this again to the previously posted leaf of C. glaucifolia:

Can you see how the plumosa is fluffier and fuller? This is how you first spot the difference. As you compare these two more and more, the plumosa will just sort of jump out at you.

C. glaucifolia/plumosa continued:

Phil

[BS Man about Palms]

I'm listening Phil, those are two that look real similar.

[Phil]

Chamaedorea glaucifolia/plumosa continued:

Here's a sort of cluttered photo 12 foot plumosa at the nursery in a 15g container. You can see the very plumose nature of the leaves:

And below is a 5g at the nursery, height seven to eight feet. You'll notice at this juvenile stage the plumose nature of C. plumosa has not quite fully developed. So, as a young plant, they are more difficult to tell apart:

For comparison, below is a thirteen foot 15g Chamaedorea glaucifolia at the Nursery. I apologize that the image is mixed into other background foliage, but is shows all the characteristics of this species:

Regarding trunk size, the following picture shows the thicker trunk of the C. plumosa. This photo is of a female with fruit, from the PACSOA website:

Chamaedorea glauciolia/plumosa continued:

Phil

[joe_OC]

Phil, this post of yours is one of the first posts I look at to get my Palm Education for the day...Thanks so much for all the info.

Definitely reading and letting it all sink in. Not much I can contribute to, so I don't say much. With regards to the C. Plumosa and Glaucifolia, I have observed that another difference between the palms is the thickness of the trunks. It is my belief that Plumosa has a thicker trunk.

[freakypalmguy]

Here is some cold tolerance data to add I thought might be helpful.

I have four Chamaedorea glaucifolia. 3 have light canopy and one is in full all day sun (by accident, I thought it was radicalis). These plants experienced 27F as a low, light frost, and many nights at or below freezing and just show the slightest bit of tip burn. I suspect they will withstand low 20's. Even the exposed plant was basically unharmed, other than it's yellow color due to excess sun.

Matt

[Phil]

Chamaedorea glaucifolia/plumosa continued:

A few quick comments on culture. Both species tolerate a fair amount of cold, both taking into the mid to possibly low 20's F. But, the Chamaedorea plumosa tolerates more sun than glaucifolia. I've received reports of people growing plumosa in full sun as much as 20 miles inland from the coast. Regarding speed of growth, both are quite quick growing.

Even though growers are trying to promote Chamaedorea plumosa as the "Baby Queen", there are potential aesthetic weaknesses to both of these species. First is that they have thin leaflets that seem to blend into the foliage of other plants and are hard to see. The second is that they can sometimes look like "leaves on a stick". Some growers prefer that single specimen look. To others it is too sparse. To combat these two things, growers are putting multiple plants in the same pot. This gives more fullness to the clump and a bit of "stair-stepping" to the overall effect.

Chamaedorea glaucifolia multi in a 15g container:

A final comment is that these two species are undoubtedly linked genetically. They have quite similar appearances and come from the same general area. Could the higher natural elevation of C. plumosa given it more sun tolorance? A point to consider as sun intensifies as altitude increases.

I hope that this discussion has helped you tell them apart.

Phil

[Phil]

Bill, Joe, and Matt,

Thanks for the feedback. You guys snuck in those comments as I'm sizing/cutting/pasting photos and typing up my comments Joe, I think you are right that it is thicker, especially toward the bae. Glaucifolia is quite thin all the way to the ground. Matt, regarding cold tolerance, you'll become more of an expert on this than me. But, at 25 degrees, I saw no apparent damage.

I've got a bunch of mail orders to get out this AM, so I'm going to do something a bit different. I'm not going to talk about a species or group of plants, but rather just throw up some random pictures of my nursery or a few plants with short comments. Although people might read this thread, if they don't live close by they probably don't know much about Jungle Music. I might begin by saying that we've been in business since 1977 and specialize in (obviously) palms, cycads and tropical plants. In recent years we're growing more Heliconia, Alocasia, Philodendron, aeroids, Ti's, Crotons, etc. We have somewhere around a quarter of million plants for sale. We're about 2 minutes off the Freeway 5 in Encinitas.

Now for some pictures:

Picture of a few random 15g plants:

A few flats of Encephalartos seeds awaiting germination. We germinate an estimated five to ten thousand cycad seeds a year:

A few random plants, including cycads. That red flush of leaves is from a Ceratozamia. That's not burn. It's the normal color of the new leaves when they emerge:

An isle of assorted palms, cycads and other tropical items:

Random photos continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Random photos continued:

Some more cycads, palms and whatever. You can't see it very well, but there's a fifty year old Lepidozamia perofskyana in this shot. It's one I dug from an established garden of an old time palm collector:

Some Philodendrons. Customers really like the dark leaf Phily's. They don't take direct sun, but make great companion plants for the palms:

A few Wodyetia by our office:

About a 30 to 40 year old E. horridus with a huge trunk:

Random Photos Continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Random Photos Continued:

A Bismarckia with a few other assorted plants:

Small plants on tables. Remember that there's about a hundred 100 foot long tables:

My grandson, Morgan, hiding in the cycads. You don't know how difficult it is to take a picture of a kid this age. All he wants to do is play. No posing for pictures for me:

My son Jesse, who works with me at the nursery, admiring his new niece Caty:

Random photos continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Random photos continued:

A very old Encephalartos longifolius. This is one of my favorite species:

Another E. longifolius:

New cycad seedlings. Barerooting is an affordable way to ship if you get a lot of seedlings. However, we ship most plants right in their containers after getting all the Ag permits:

The cool color of a new leaf on Loxococos seedling:

Random Photos continued:

Phi