Huge Palm, Cycad & Tropical Plant Sale

[Phil]

I did a websearch and, to my surprise, there is so little information about Chamaedorea neurochlamys on the Net. What you are seeing right now is more than a search will provide.

Let's take a closer look at the leaf. You will note that it has very attractive wide leaflets. The leaflets are a bit "puffy" or cupped. The leaf doesn't hold too many leaflets and are not excesssively long. This is a nice trait when space available in the garden is at a premium. This species would also make a fine house plants as it doesn't flop into people face as much as other plants such as a Howea.

Here's a look at a blossom. You might think that this has to be a male because it is so branched. But, this species has a branched female blossom as well. So, I can't tell from this photo which sex it is. With Chamaedorea, when one sees an unbranched blossom, there's a good chance it's a female. But most species of Chamaedoreas have branched blossoms on both sexes.

Blossom Chamaedorea neurochlamys, uncertain sex

For comparison, here's a blossom of a Chamaedroea benzei that is a female with seeds and branched.

And here's a female blossom of Chamaedorea tuerckheimii. Get out your tiny artist's brush to pollinate this one. This photo might have been taken by a friend of mine, Bob Chang (who unfortunately has disappeared from this discussion group)

And, in case you're wondering, the price of the C. neurochlamys above (on sale) is $76.

For those Americans out there, have a nice Thanksgiving.

Phil

[gsn]

Just thought I would say Hi!

And see if you added anything new!

[Phil]

Scott,

Thanks for visiting and for your feedback.

If one reads this extremely long thread, recently someone might note that it seems to not be a lot about our Sale. And this is true. When I started it, it was certainly advertising. Like all other growers, I want customers to come and visit the nursery. But, as time went by and the message about the sale was already out there, I decided to just talk about species and culture. As everyone knows, I like to throw in stories and bit of history where possible. But, what I like most about doing this (from my perspective) is that I can talk about anything. I've written at least a hundred formal articles on palms and cycads in my career. When I do this, I have to stick to the given subject. But, here in this forum, I can select any topic or species I want and jump from one to the next. This is why it's just fun and not a labor. I see why people do blogs. Let me think about whether there's another species coming.

Phil

[Phil]

There is a species that I want to talk about. It's Raphia hookeri.

Probably, very few people reading here have ever heard of this plant. And, from the outset, I will tell you that I don't have any for sale. Darn! I should have, but I don't. I have no idea if R. hookeri will grow for us in So Cal.

So, here's how I came to know this species. Raphia are these very large pinnate palms. They have thick trunks. About 20 years ago I tried growing a few and started hearing stories of successes. One enthusiast in Santa Monica reportedly had several large Raphia farinifera in the ground for years. I had a feeling that Raphia australis would do best, but would grow any I could get seeds on. But, it was more of a fascination than love for the genus. Below is a reminder picture of Raphia farinifera (shown previously with Shon from this list):

Below is a picture of what this palm is going to look like. As I recall, this photo was taken in HI and I think it is a farinifera.

Here's another shot of a younger tree. You can see that they do have some beauty.

Remember that this is the genus where one feels the prickly "reverse" spines on the leaflet edges. I mentioned Raphia australis above. The best way to recognize it (IMO) is by the color of the petiole. The following picture shows this. I think it might be the hardiest Raphia.

Story continued below.

Phil

[Phil]

Here's a closeup of the petiole. The orange color is quite distinctive and somewhat reminiscent of the color that one sees in Coconuts.

As a background, I will say that my first experiences with rainforests came from visits into Mexico in a VW bug. Although far from a reliable vehicle, one way or another, it got me there. I fell in love with the various types of bromeliads and orchids that I found in the forests. I particularly liked the type of bromeliad called Tillandsia. These "Air Plants" are amazing and live on limbs, telephone wires and fence posts. They are everywhere. Spanish Moss is such a type of bomeliad. I even collected a few and grow them hanging from fishing line at my house. They are now spaghetti like bunches of plants that blossom from time to time and only require an occasional shot of water.

In approximately 1994, the IPS had a Biennial Meeting in Caracas, Venezuela. One misty morning on that trip, the group visited the Caracas Botanical Gardens. That's where we all met August Braun, the famed botanist of Venezuela. I think I was more aware of his reputation and fame than others on the tour, so I paid particular attention to all that he said and showed us. (unfortunately he passed away a few years later). He pointed out a particular Raphia that had taken unbelievable work in order to obtain the seeds to grow it. He went on and on about how the seeds finally got to the Garden. He germinated them and put small plants in the ground. As we walked to see the specimens of Raphia hookeri from those seeds, his eyes lit up and he pointed to the trunks. "Ever seen anything like this?" he said. I hadn't. It was just like a whole bunch of Tillandsia on the trunk. How great was this? Below is a photograph of the plant we looked at. It obviously is nutritional challenged, but the picture shows what I'm talking about.

And, here's a closeup of the trunk. It appears as if someone is purposely growing Tillandsia on the trunk. This is the epitome of a "fibrous trunk".

In closing, above I made reference to the fact that I "should have plants for sale". What happened is that, out of the blue, I was emailed about 2 years ago by a man from Western Africa. He said he had seeds of Raphia hookeri. Now, everyone is skeptical about sellers from this part of the world. But, after many emails back and forth, it became apparent that he was for real. He knew too much about this rare species and lived in the species locality. So, I bought a hundred seeds. He had a friend coming to the US who imported them by hand to the East Coast and shipped them off to me. All permits were obtained. They arrived in apparently good shape and were beautiful, large seeds. Unfortunately, I didn't get one to germinate. They probably were just too old. I'll try again some future day and perhaps we'll know if this species will survive for us in Southern California.

Phil

[Phil]

Wow, I thought the trunk on the Raphia hookeri is quite something; but no comments. I don't know of another palm that looks llike that. There are the typical fibrous trunks and a lot of hairy or matted ones, but that hookeri is unique. By the way, photos of the trunks of Coccothrinax would be a great thread.

Now for a game. What is it? I will say at the onset that I really don't know for sure what the following palm is. I have an idea. But, I will post some photos and await comments from you guys. I don't remember where I got the seed or anything about it. We just found it in the nursery with no label. Labels disappear all the time. And, on many occasions, I've seen kids come out with a fistful of them saying "Look Daddy what I found". So we made a "new" label for this plant. I think it's about 3 or 4 years old, but am not sure.

Here's it's label:

Here's a picture of the plant.

Here's a closer shot of the leaf

And here's a picture of the trunk.

More to follow.

Phil

[Phil]

I suspect some of you have gotten the genus. If so, what is the species? or whatever? This is why games are fun. If you post what you think it is, please say why you came to this conclusion. I would be really impressed if some of you were getting out your books to figure out this one. Oops, I didn't say which book. Should I start with Dransfield's book???? Palms of the South Pacific???? an old issue of Palms???

Maybe this will help:

And especially this photo:

So, what do you think? I'll make comments later.

Phil

[BS Man about Palms]

Non tree form Chamedorea?

[Shon]

Phil just make sure my tag gets back on that palm.

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Hi Phil

It does look like theChamaedorea oreophila that my seed came from, do not have a non trunking C.radicalis to check against however the ones have seen so far have had bigger leaflets and a thicker stem. Just reviewed pictures taken at Huntingdon gardens of trunkless radicalis and they are very similar to picture, the heel may be the difference, so with out seeing the flowers, the hard thought guess would be Chamaedorea radicalis.

regards

colin

[Phil]

Colin, Bill and Others,

I think that Chamaedorea oreophila is a good guess. I have had seeds of these before. My original thought was that, since oreophila gets six feet tall or more, that it wouldn't be throwing out two blossoms at such a young age. I'd anticipate more trunk before blossoming. So, I did a Net search and came up with this posted photo from a website dipbot.unict.it It seems to have blossoms without too much trunk height.

The other possibility was a Chamaedorea radicalis or radicalis hybrid. Below are a few pictures of radicalis. Note that the radicalis leaflets are wider than the subject plants's leaflets. Photo is of a 5g at the nursery.

And another picture from a garden habitat.

The subject palm seems to have a fine leaflet appearance. But, remember the "foot". Here's a picture from Pacsoa of a C. radicalis described as a "creeping form". I don't use that term but have noted that some radicalis do have this foot and really stay small with no trunk. I don't recall oreophila having this foot.

So where does all this leave us? When the blossom opens, we'll be able to tell a lot more. Then we can go to Hodel's book and compare what we have with the photos. For now, I say oreophila or a radicalis crossed with something with a smaller leaflet. More comments from others welcomed.

Phil

[Phil]

I've been doing a lot of "palming" lately, so I will add a few pictues of cycads. Of all the cycads we sell, Encephalartos are most popular. Of the Encephalartos, most popular are the blue species. By "blue" (common usage in the cycad world) is meant the color of a blue sky when there's a little bit of fog overhead. It's not blue like an ocean, but more of a silver-blue. Of these blue Encephalartos, E. horridus is the most popular.

So, here's an approximately 30 year old Encephalartos horridus in a 24 inch plastic box at our nursery.

Another view of the same plant

A closer picture of the crown of leaves.

And below is a closeup of the leaflets. You'll not that the leaflets are prominental barbed (spiked) and that a midspine has a "flip" to it. It becomes a more three dimensional leaflet. This is one of the hallmarks of E. horridus. E. trispinosus is a similar appearing species but doesn't have this orientation to the midspine and is more of a "flat" leaflet.

Continued,

Phil

[Phil]

A keen observer will note that the color of the previous cycad is not as blue as others he has seen. Why is this? Compare it to this picture:

Or, this picture:

More blue, correct? The reason for the color difference is totally secondary to how the plant is grown. Like almost all blue cycads (and palms for that matter), the blue color comes from a wax that the leaflets put out to protect the plant from dessication. When an Encephalartos horridus in the greenhouse puts out new leaves, they are very blue. But, as time goes by, they can fade to green. This is because the increased humidity in the greenhouse makes the wax unnecessary. Remember, the wax is to prevent dehydration. It's a naturally protecting thing. If there's ample humidity and water, the plant doesn't need it. If it's dry and arid, the plant makes more.

Therefore, blue Encephalartos and other types of cycads are always more blue outdoors. And, the more inland, hot and dry you are, the bluer they get. Or, if you plant an E. horridus in the shade, you'll lose the blue over time and the plant will not thrive.

I've seen this same phenomena with Bismarckia, Nannorrhops and other blue palms. "Use it or lose it" applies to blue plants.

So, there you go.

Phil

[doubravsky]

Interesting explanation, Phil. I had alwasys wondered the reason why some palms/ cycads have the blue coloring. Keep 'em coming!

[Phil]

Dave,

Here's a good example of the "disappearing blue" on an Encephalartos princeps.

15g plant with a fairly new flush:

But, look at the picture above carefully. Note that the newest six to eight leaves are more blue than the lower set of leaves. The lower ones are probably a year old and have lost the wax.

Here's an Encephalartos princeps in a box that hasn't thrown for over a year. It's leaves are green. A new throw in the greenhouse would be blue, or all leaves would remain blue if grown outdoors in full sun here in So Cal.

An interesting and remarkable thing is how seedlings of Sabal uresana (from good, wild collected specimens) are very blue on their very first leaf and tend to stay blue even if in the greenhouse. I think this is because this species comes from a very hot and extremely dry locality in Mexico and has genetic commands to never give up the wax; it's "too dangerous"!

Phil

[Phil]

Group,

Sorry for no new palm pictures this AM. I had early appointments at the nursery and got a bit hung up on my Palm Grower Ratings post. Feel free to go there and read what I wrote.

Now for a few palms.

Why anyone would actually choose the Plectocomia himalayana is a bit perplexing. But, sometimes customers ask specifically for spiney palms. Well, this is one for sure. It's a thin trunked single stem species that gets really tall; I mean Caryota-tall. When seeds first came out six years ago or so, the rage was that it was going to be cold hardy, even tolerating snow. It does grow at altitudes of about 2000 to 6000 feet in habitat in Asia, so perhaps this is true. People in Northern California are growing it. Below is a few pics of this unusual palm.

Plectocomia himalayan in a 5g pot. Plant height is about 5 feet, basal diameter 2 inches.

And below is a picture of the base of this plant.

Below is a picture of the petiole showing the spines.

And here's a closer shot of the leaflets.

And the leaflets:

More to follow in the early AM, even before the coffee's ready for Matt in Temecula. I promise.

Phil

[Phil]

Here's a photo of Plectocomia h. at PlantAPalm website. In time, it gets tall.

Now another.

Colpothrinax has always fascinated me. Colpothrinax wrightii is known as the Cuban Belly Palm. Decades ago after seeing the first photos of Colpothrinax, it made me even more intent in my dreams to visit Cuba to see palms. And, with all those plants around with the term "thrinax" in their names, this was a definite must to see. What a fantastic assortment they have in habitat in Cuba. Because of the bulge in the trunk, I particularly was charmed over this one. Very cool. Below is a photo from PlantAPalm. Note the bulge in the mid trunk.

There's another Colpothrinax from Central America (not Cuba), specifically Belize and Honduras. It's named Colpothrinax cookii. Similar in appearance, it doesn't have the big bulge. But, it is a very attractive tropical fan palm.

Here's a closeup of the crown:

The leaf, trunk and nursery plants to follow.

Phil

[Phil]

Colpothrinax cookii, leaf. It's a bit silver on the underneath side.

Same species, trunk. Note how fibrous it is. If I just showed this trunk one might think it was the Old Man Palm, Coccothrinax crinita:

You can see why this genus would fascinate a palm grower. About five or six years seeds of C.cookii became available and I jumped at the chance. They germinated fairly well but proved to be slow growers. It's taken at least 5 years to produce the plant below. It's in a 15g pot and about 4 feet tall. As you can see, it is not a palm stretching for vertical height, but rather slowly taking its time and flopping leaves to the side.

Colpothrinax cookii, 15g.

More to follow.

Phil

[Phil]

Now for a bit closer look at this Colpothrinax cookii in a 15g container:

And the dorsal side of the leaf. It sort of looks like a Crosophyla leaf, doesn't it? (see previous part of this thread on the Star Palm).

There are people growing this species in better parts of So Cal. It is indeed a rare and unusual species. This palm presently is $140 and would be an extremely hard species to find on the market. All of our palm prices can be seen at the link below.

Palm Prices

Feedback is welcome as I always begin to wonder who's reading all this. Thanks.

Phil

[BS Man about Palms]

I bought one of those C. cookii from you Phil, and it sits in an area I don't get to much. (less water) Its doing fine! Probably would be great if I watered it and/or planted it!

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Hi Phil

Chamaedorea oreophila will flower when it starts to trunk, which would help confuse it with a non trunking radicalis. Also Chamaedorea radicalis can have fine leaflets when it is raised in dark restricted dry area. The area's that need comparison would be the flowers and the colour at the sheath. C.radicalis seems to be a little bluer in the sheath than C.oreaphila which appears to be greener. The white in both the sheath's seems similar, need more flower detail to be sure

regards

colin

Colin, Bill and Others,

I think that Chamaedorea oreophila is a good guess. I have had seeds of these before. My original thought was that, since oreophila gets six feet tall or more, that it wouldn't be throwing out two blossoms at such a young age. I'd anticipate more trunk before blossoming. So, I did a Net search and came up with this posted photo from a website dipbot.unict.it It seems to have blossoms without too much trunk height.

The other possibility was a Chamaedorea radicalis or radicalis hybrid. Below are a few pictures of radicalis. Note that the radicalis leaflets are wider than the subject plants's leaflets. Photo is of a 5g at the nursery.

And another picture from a garden habitat.

The subject palm seems to have a fine leaflet appearance. But, remember the "foot". Here's a picture from Pacsoa of a C. radicalis described as a "creeping form". I don't use that term but have noted that some radicalis do have this foot and really stay small with no trunk. I don't recall oreophila having this foot.

So where does all this leave us? When the blossom opens, we'll be able to tell a lot more. Then we can go to Hodel's book and compare what we have with the photos. For now, I say oreophila or a radicalis crossed with something with a smaller leaflet. More comments from others welcomed.

Phil

[PalmGuyWC]

Phil,

I've enjoyed your thread which is attached to another tread, so this information may be overlooked.

Back in the 70's I hybridized several species of Chamaedoreas. I had a rather large collection of Cham. hybrids, but unfortunately the great freeze of 89/90 wiped most of them out. The best, in my opinion, was a cross of C. oreophila X C. radicalis. I used C. oreophila as the mother plants and found it would not cross the other way using C. radicalis as the mother. The few seeds that formed on C. oreophila were very small, and at first I thought they were dummies because of their small size, so small that the seeds would fit under a fingernail. The seeds were so small and delicate they had to be planted immediately. They were germinated on a shallow layer of spagnum moss which was kept constantly moist with soil underneeth. The seedlings were very small, but with patience, and after they had grown several fonds, they speeded up in growth.

The resulting plants were very robust and cold hardy, however I had 7 plants and 4 were killed in the freeze which got down to 14F in my location. 3 of them survived and I still have them. I consider the hybrid superior to either of the parents. The texture of the fronds is more like C. radicalis, but they hold more fronds than C. oreophila or C. radicalis.

C. oreophila is a much neglected Chamaedorea, and they do well in Calif. with our cool nights, and they will survive temps down to 25 F, but not much below. They don't do well in Florida with the tropical heat. I gave some to U. A Young in Tampa, and they survived, but very poorly. They never made it in Miami from the heat. I think most of them were killed in the 89 freeze in N. Calif.

Concerning C. radicalis......the trunkless kind have a definate boot, and I've seen the boot creep along the grond for several inches. The trunking kind can form a boot as well, but not as pronounced as the trunkless kind. I have also seen the trunkless kind morph into a trunking kind, after many years. Cham. radicalis will cross with C. microspadix, but not the other way, but the resulting plant is single stemed and some what dissapointing in apperance.

There is mention of some of my Cham. hybrids in Hodel's book on page 264. I had a lot of fun with the Eleuththropetalum group of Chamaedoreas, but that's another story. There is an article way back in Principes that I wrote on those.

Dick

[quaman58]

Phil,

I needed to tell you how much I've enjoyed reading this thread. Your obvious enthusiasm after so many years of growing palms is a very cool thing. A question about Chamaedorea radicalis; I've have a "double" non trunking (I think) in the ground, that regularly flowers. I was reading RLR's "Cultivated Palms" book last week and he mentioned, if I'm not mistaken, the presence of "unisexual" flowers on this species. Is that correct? Can this one "self seed"? (As opposed to other Chams)

Bret

[Phil]

Dick Douglas,

Thanks for the comments. Can you post a picture here of the C. oreophila hybrid? I'd love to see it.

Phil

Dick (other one),

I don't think radicalis can be both sexes in one plant. But , sometimes females will form what looks like "seeds" but are infertile and not really viable seeds. The flowers were not pollinated and they form the "dummies" Dick is talking about above. Pinch them for a hard center and watch the size of the "seed". Bad seeds are typically smaller than expected. If they are good seeds, I'd suspect there's a stray male Chamaedorea somewhere.

Phil

[Phil]

I'm awaiting pictures from Colin if he's got something to show us. Also some from Dick Douglas.

Now for another of my favorite palms: Polyandrococos caudescens. When I first saw this palm in Foster Botanical garden in Honolulu 25 years ago, the thing that impressed me most was the beautiful cluster of orange seeds. Imagine orange sherbert ice cream. This is their color. They are so inviting that you almost want to taste the fruit. And, they are tightly packed into a long clustering bunch on the tree, sort of dangling down saying "take me". I looked through my pictures and I have a picture of green seeds, but not the orange I remember.

Polyandrococos caudescens is a palm we can grow in So Cal. Pualeen Sullivan has a huge one at her apartments in Ventura. Lots are growing this plant. It's leaves a simple when younger and divide later. The underside of the leaves is silver or off-silver. The plant below is in a 15 g container and about 4 to 5 years old.

Here's a closer view of the leaves

And here's a gallery photo of a larger plant. This one as I recall was in HI.

And here's a shot of the beautiful green seeds:

As you can see, this species has a full head of leaves, is pinnate, has silvery undersides to the leaves, and is somewhat cold hardy ( I guess you can't "see" this, so I just added it). When young, it is slow growing. I'll see if I can find a picture of the seeds showing color.

Phil.

[Phil]

Here's a picture showing the silver underside of the leaves:

Another of the plant:

Guess what? I was looking for fruit pictures and found this link below. This Site says the fruit is edible and tastes great! Jody Haynes, who many of you know, was one of the authors of this article. Check it out if you're hungry.

Edible Fruit

I am sorry, but I didn't find a photo of the colorful fruit. Some day I'll return with a photo of it. If anyone out there does have a photo, please post it.

Phil

[BS Man about Palms]

Phil,

I am surprised that you didn't post an "emerging spear" picture of a Polyandrococos caudescens. It is quite unique as you know. Just like some other palms, I have given a "pet name" to this palm as it makes me think of something else, or to help remember it. I call it the "Zebra palm" cause the spike makes me think of that. (Others are the "Blue Carrot palm" for the Ravenea xerophila, and the "Hug Me palm" for the Jubea chilensis.) yeah, I'm weird, I know.

Love the thread, keep it up.

Bill

[Phil]

Bill,

Thanks for the feedback. I didn't post the zebra-striped new spear because I didn't have a photo. Once this species gets big enough, you really see it. This is one of the first memories I have of growing this species in my garden. And, regarding "keep it up", I'll try. But someday the Powers That Be will shut it down because of longevity. I'll try to wrap it up before that day.

As one can tell from this thread, it's not really directed at "selling you this plant". It's more of an educational and story thread. Considering this, I would like to talk this morning about something that nurserymen never want to talk about. That is when you have poor luck with a species or lose a plant(s). Nurserymen know that talking about this is "bad for business". Well, it's a fact of life and we've got to deal with it. Knowledge obtained from these losses is very important to me and to you. If I were totally intent on selling you another plant, I certainly wouldn't post these pictures below or make these comments.

Palms and cycads are different. When they go south, they display it in different ways. Today, I'm going to talk about a cycad's demise. I wrote a lengthy article entitled "My Cycad's In Trouble" at my site. I invite anyone interested to click on this link to get a lot of information on the subject:

My Cycad Is In Trouble

If you read this, you'll find that the vast majority of a cycad's problems are below the ground. Or, at least within the caudex. Nutritional and environmental problems such as cold burn or microelement/nitrogen deficiency are demonstrated solely on the leaves. But the biggest problems are when there is a problem with the caudex or the major roots below the ground. The number one enemy of cycads is rot. Rot comes from poor drainage, too much water, frequent overhead watering of the plant (or too much rain), root trauma or other root maladies. When these occur, one rather abruptly sees a decline in the crown of leaves. In other words, last week it looked good and today the leaves are brown and laying down. That's a really bad sign and suggests rot that you cannot see.

Here's some pictures of an Encephalartos that was doing fine. It had been repotted in the past six months. It had a small offset to the left in the photo. Then one day I noted the leaves were all dead and laying down on the ground. So, I inspected with photos and here's what I found.

First, note the dead appearing leaves and how they are dependent against the ground. Also, note that little "opening" in the center of the crown. This is a dead ringer that there's rot in the caudex.

In fact, I was so sure that this plant was a goner that I put traction on the base of the petioles by pulling upward on them. I'm looking for looseness of the leaf bases, further enlargement of that opening, etc. You can see that a whole group of catophyls along with the leaves pulls upward.

I then continued pulling and the leaves and the central portion of the caudex pull right out. You can see how this gives a suggestion of a large central cavity in the caudex.

At this time I knew this cycad was toast. I then grabbed the entire caudex and pulled upward. With ease, it broker away from its ground attachment and here's what it showed: a huge central rot cavity.

As a cycad nurseryman, I see this from time to time. We have about 25,000 cycads and about 5000 good sized cycads this big or larger. So a loss here or there is part of doing business. It is always sad. But, if you're a homeowner and have just one or two cycads, seeing this is devastating. Cycads are also espensive plants in many cases.

I figure this plant had some type of root trauma when being repotted. It was not noticed at the time. Root rot set in and worked its way up to the caudex. Then we saw the problem in the leaves. If one were to save such a plant, you'd have to immediately bare root it when you first see problems. This was obviously not done. You dissect away rot and hope there's still tissue of good root below the caudex and it heals over.

I hope this helps you understand how to keep an eye on your cycads.

Phil

[Phil]

And, for comparison, here's some pictures of what a good set of leaves should look like:

Encephalartos natalensis (the one with the largest cycad leaves)

Dioon edule

Encephalartos paucidentatus

And the crown of leaves of a very old Dioon merolae

Maybe these photos will help sell a plant.

Thanks for coming to this thread. And, as always, I appreciate feedback to know that the time spent is getting through to readers.

Phil

[Phil]

I've sure got a lot of cycad photos to share, but the lack of responses in the last day or two tells me that my audience has more attention on palms. So, back to palms we go. But, don't be surprised if I throw more cycad photos in to tweek your interest.

Chamaedorea dammeriana is a very rare species of Chamaedorea from Costa Rica. One rarely sees pictures of this species. I have a few plants at the nursery and wanted to share them because most have never seen this species. I hesitated because I like to show perfectly grown plants when posting. But, this one's not perfect. I decided to show it anyway because it is rare. I did a net search this AM to look for more photos and the photo below from Fairchild's Website is the only one on the web I could find. There's was one of a runty 2 leaf seedling but that serves no purpose here.

This is not a big species and has irregular leaflets as you can see. It is single trunk and about 3 to 6 feet tall. The terminal leaflet is large and simple with a variable number of smaller leaflets more proximal on the stem. My photos below are not the best, so I apologize for this. But, it's rare to see photos at all of this species. This plant is in a 5g container, about 2 to 2.5 feet tall and in blossom.

Below is a closer picture of the leaves. You'll note how it fits its description. Also, you will see some brown tipping. It's rare for us to have this on plants. So, my suspicion is that this plant is in very old soil. It's age is probably at least 6 years old. Remember, brown tipping has to do with culture. It's either a soil problem, lack of water, overly hot conditions, hard water, or soil salt build up in the soil, fertilizer burn, or something along these lines. On this plant I can see that the soil is very old because it has lowered way into the pot. Typically when I see this, if I repot the plant the plant into a new pot with new soil, and within a year it's looking gorgeous again.

The picture below is of the blossom on this plant. I think it's a male. C. dammeriana has branching of the flowers on both male and female, but the degree of branching seems to suggest male to me. In a month or so I'll know for sure.

Below is a picture of this species from the Fairchild Tropical Garden website. This pictur is nice because it shows the silver color to the back of the leaves.

Phil

[Phil]

For those of you who haven't visited our nursery, below are a few general shots of the nursery and a few plant tables. Most of our smaller plants are grown on tables. They are about 3 feet off the ground. We find this desirable because it is easy for us to care for them and a lot easier for the customers to see the plants. It is a lot of work to maintain these tables as they are made of wood and the wood can rot. But, we think it's worth it. I'd love to some day convert to plastic benches, but's this is not in our budget right now. Remember that we have over 2 miles of benches and that's a lot of plastic.

A few shots of some tables with plants sized from band containers (3x3x9 inches) to 2g or possibly 5g size:

Now a couple of pictures of larger plants on the ground. Because of weight, when we repot into a container larger than 5g size, we typically put them on the ground. Later, when these plants get larger and are established, they might be moved to one of our outdoor growing areas. We have many thousands of plants outdoors, but most are in larger sizes.

Phil

[doubravsky]

Very nice Phil! Still a great thread! I've been thinking about cycads and that I need more of them. Many of my garden areas that are not full are in close proximity to walking paths... so I need plants that are not too sharp to walk by and brush up against. Can you highlight a few that would fit that desciption, and live with partial inland sun?

[Phil]

Dave,

When one grows cycads, he has to be careful with placement. This is true for several reasons. First, some species like full sun and others can tolerate filtered light. I don't think any really prefer dark, dark shade. Another factor to remember the plant's eventual size. Cycads grow well and get bigger. So, for instance, putting a Lepidozamia right next to a walkway would be a mistake as that plant will eventually overwhelm the walkway. And the third factor are the spines on the leaves. Even some shady species have spines. For example, Encepalartos ferox takes filtered light but would poke you if it flopped over your pathway.

With this said, you must go through a species list and decide which will work given these limitations. If you are really limited for space (an area 2 or 3 feet wide), you'd probably have to use a small Ceratozamia sp. like hildae. Or possibly a Zamia like furfuracea, pumilla, ambyphylidia, etc. If the area gets some some, perhaps Encephalartos caffer would work.

Below are a few shots of "smaller" cycads. We have all of these for sale in lots of sizes.

Phil

Ceratozamia hildae

Zamia furfuracea, several large specimens

Zamia amblyphyllidia in a citrus pot

If there's a bit of sun, consider the smaller species Encephalartos caffer.

[Phil]

If you have a bigger area that has limited sun, consider these species:

Ceratozamia mexicana

Ceratozamia miquelliana. Very beautiful and we have them from time to time. We've got some new seedlings coming on right now. Note the blue-green wide leaflets.

Or Ceratozamia norstogii (aka plumosa). It can take full sun along the coast or tolerate partial sun. The overall crown size is not too big. It's leaves twirl and the leaflets are thin and needlelike.

or maybe Ceratozamia sp. "el mirador"

Remember to know how much space you'll have when the plant matures. Trimming just one side to keep it off the walkway can sometimes be done in a way that it's not too noticeable, but pre-planning works better.

Phil

[Phil]

And, if you've got lots of space, consider Lepidozamia perofskyana. They are not pokey, very "user friendly" and beautiful. If you bought a little one, some nursery might tell you that it will tolerate filtered light. But, the size won't work for you unless you've got plenty of room. I have some at the nursery that, in a container, already have 8 to 10 foot leaves!

Here's a 7 gallon sized plant from the nursery. You might think, "That'll work".

But, here's what your grandkids will see some day next to the walkway!

The same would apply to that cute little Encephalartos ferox, see next post.

Phil

[Phil]

Encephalartos ferox is a beautiful plant. Some people equate it to the "Holly Fern" of cycads. It is pokey, but can take filtered light. If one has limited space for a filtered light cycad, he might be sold a little E. ferox. But here the space rule will eventuallly apply.

E. ferox in a 15g pot at our Nursery:

Here's a 20 g container at the nursery. This plant has a red female cone. The cones of cycads are very cool and attractive. Also, they help ID the species.

Another shot of a red female E. ferox cone. I think I'd like that right next to the walkway for easy viewing:

It might work if you can take a plant that gets at least 8 feet across.

So Dave (and others), I hope this helps. It's sort of a primer on a few shade tolerant cycads. All the species in the past few posts can tolerate less than full sun. But, remember to give them enough room.

Take care,

Phil

[palmislandRandy]

Please , please keep on posting! The most difficult time I have is distinguishing youngins from mature palms. You can find photos of adults anywhere, but telling a 1-5 gal juveniles apart proves more difficult for me. Keep this educational thread going! Thanks, Randy

[Phil]

Randy,

Thanks for the feedback. Recognizing smaller plants comes only from exposure and experience. It takes a long time to "recognize" a plant when it's young and repeated views of photographs does help. And, you're right, all the books show mature specimens. When this thread ends might be up to rules and the authorities that be more than by my decision.

Now for a few comments on a very common species... or is it? Everyone knows the Pigmy Date Palm, Phoenix roebelenii. It can be found in habitat in Laos, Vietnam, and Southern China. It is single trunked and reaches a maximum height of about 10 to 15 feet. Here's a picture of a mature plant:

OK. We're done, right? No, not so fast....

This species is, as you all know, quite popular and grown the world over. Because plants have a skinny trunk, when tall they look a bit bare in their lower half. Therefore, it became practice to put multiple plants in one pot and create a "multiple". This is how they are most commonly markeded today. Below is a 'Double".

And, here's how the plant above may have looked when it was in a 5g size.

Below is a closer shot of the base. You can tell that it's a double from two plants put into one pot. There is not evidence that the second plant was a sucker from the first stem.

Continued next post. Don't get bored, there's a point I'm going to make.

Phil

[Phil]

In Laos, China and nearby areas, there are naturally occuring species of Phoenix that sucker. Phoenix loureiri is a single trunk or clustering species from Asia. P. paludosa is in the area as well and also suckers. However, reclinata comes from South Africa, a long ways away.

In Laos, there is a naturally occuring, suckering form of Phoenix roebelenii. I first got seeds of this species from Inge Hoffman 25 years ago. Some of you may know of the name "Phoenix reasnorii". It has been applied to this plant. I personally have not seen original publications on this name, but have certainly heard of it for several decades. Back then, it was often used to refer to a hybrid between reclinata and roebelenii. Others have used the term on the native species from Laos. The point being here is that, in habitat, not all Phoenix roebelenii are single trunk. The commercially produced "suckering roebelenii" is often course, with somewhat plumose leaves and gets quite large. The naturally occuring suckering plant is soft and much smaller.

Why is this imporant? If you want a suckering Phoenix, most would choose P. reclinata. But, these get enormous and take up a lot of room. Pruning them is a chore. A suckering roebelenii would be much smaller and require less work to care for it. The commercially available hybrid tends to be more like the reclinata. (some day I'll show pictures of these)

Here's a photograph of the suckering species of Phoenix roebelenii from Laos. It is in a 5g pot. I'll first show a picture or two of the base so you can see that the suckers originate from the mother stem.

And following are a few shots of the plant. Please note that the leaves are very soft, relaxed and fine. Most, when comparing this species to a regular P. roebelenii, feel the hybrid is a more elegant, finer leaf plant.

So, you can see that the topic of Pigmy Dates was not quite what you expected. No one knows the evolutionary developement of this suckering species. But, it's seen naturally. Seeds collected from habitat give the appearance of the plant above. Seeds available on a large scale from commercial companies are inevitably a cross with reclinata and not the same plant. The suckering species from Laos is very desirable and hard to find. Thanks for reading on with this thread on a "common" species. I personally don't have pictues right now of this naturally suckering species of larger size. I did a Net Search this AM and could find none there either. Sorry.

Phil

[Phil]

I hear clamering for something a bit more rare. Let's look at a South African palm species that is very slow growing and needs a lot of patience if you are to ever have a big one in your garden: Juabeopsis caffra. The seeds are huge, difficult to germinate and always expensive. That's one reason why plants are always expensive. The second is that they grow really, really slowly. It's interesting that "Jubaea" is equally slow, so perhaps taxonomists were making a point about growth when they named these species (kidding). It's not unusual to hear comments about how, in five years, a plant in the garden isn't a lot bigger than when planted.

First I'll show some pics of bigger plants. For those of you who saw it, Bill Sanford posted some shots from a recent Jubaeopsis thread under Discussing Palms.

Here's a photo of the specimen at the Catamaran Hotel the Pacific Beach area of San Diego. The history of this plant is that it was grown in the garden of the now deceased Jim Specht. It was at least 20 years old when Bill Evans (owner of the hotel) bought it from Jim and craned it off to the hotel. It's been at the hotel for about 20 more years.

And, a few more shots of other plants:

Some people call this species the "Suckering Coconut". The crown does resemble the Coconut a bit. But, likewise the petiole is that yellow gold color like the Coconut. Here's a shot showing this feature.

Continued.

Phil