Huge Palm, Cycad & Tropical Plant Sale

[Shon]

Love that Pritchardia Phil. Got one doing just fine in full San Marcos sun. Check out the palm I brought to the front yesterday it would be a good one for the thread.

[Phil]

Pritchardia minor continued

Shon, you snuck that post in while I was waiting for downloads. I'll check out that plant.

A mature specimen of P. minor:

And a closer shot:

Hope you like this jewel of a plant.

Phil

[LJG]

Phil, does P. minor have white underside? Not sure if you rememebr but almost two years ago I bought a 24 in box P minor. Someone familiar with this genus said he did not think Minor had white underside. He thoguht it was Martii. Any idea?

Pritchardia minor continued

Shon, you snuck that post in while I was waiting for downloads. I'll check out that plant.

A mature specimen of P. minor:

And a closer shot:

Hope you like this jewel of a plant.

Phil

[MattyB]

Len, I think Minor has white and Martii has bronze. I'll have to check Hodel's article again.

[LJG]

Perfect. You have 15 minutes to do so. Time starts now.

Len, I think Minor has white and Martii has bronze. I'll have to check Hodel's article again.

[Phil]

Len,

There's a bit of color on the underside, but not as prominent as martii. And, P. martii is sort of rusty-silver as I recall. I apologize, but my second shot above was not the closeup. Here's the picture I meant to post. You can see some white color on the underside. Regarding the 15 minutes you gave MattyB, I'm going to beat him. Hodel's monograph says "abaxial surface completely covered with lepidida and appearing silvery grayish white".

Pritchardia minor

And, don't forget about my favorite: the domestically grown Pritchardia napaliensis, suckers and all.

Phil

[LJG]

Thanks Phil. I will stick with Minor as that is what you sold it as and you are usually right.

Len,

There's a bit of color on the underside, but not as prominent as martii. And, P. martii is sort of rusty-silver as I recall. I apologize, but my second shot above was not the closeup. Here's the picture I meant to post. You can see some white color on the underside. Regarding the 15 minutes you gave MattyB, I'm going to beat him. Hodel's monograph says "abaxial surface completely covered with lepidida and appearing silvery grayish white".

Pritchardia minor

And, don't forget about my favorite: the domestically grown Pritchardia napaliensis, suckers and all.

Phil

[Phil]

Good morning. Len, ID'ing Pritchardia, especially when younger, can be tough. One time Don Hodel visited my garden years ago and could only ID about half of the Pritchardias. When you have all of the data including blossoms and seeds, it's easier. But, with your plant, it should end up with a fairly thin trunk and smallish leaves.

Now, on to a Pinanga. It sometimes amazes me that Pinanga has not gotten more attention. People jump up and down about a few flecks of dark scale on a Dypsis when Pinanga species show amazing color, variegation of the leaves and a unique beauty. Some are single trunk, others sucker. Some are miniature, others quite huge. And, they grow easily in warmer areas and are a slam dunk to germinate. If you are in the tropics, give Pinanga a good representation in your garden and you'll be thrilled with the plants as they grow. If in So Cal, grow the species that will work for you. There are several.

Pinanga phillappinenssis is a species some have grown in So Cal. It is a suckering Pinanga with fairly even width leaflets. It gets to a height of about 8 feet. The leaves and leaflets are a bit droopy. It is very graceful appearing. The plant below is in a 7g container, about 5 feet tall. This is the plant that Shon found a few days ago.

Pinanga phillippinensis

Here's a look at the leaf:

And, below is a closeup of the base, showing the stem with its color. Sorry about the poor focus, but you get the point.

Below is a photo of a mature specimen. By the way, the picture below is the ONLY picture of Pinanga phillippinensis that I could find on an internet search. Paul Craft's book has no pictures. This is surprising. If it was some other genera, there would be scads of photos. If you have a nice photo, post it.

Have a good Saturday. I'm off to the nursery soon.

Phil

[JEFF from Trabuco Canyon CA]

I love the suckering Pritchardia napaliensis! I wonder if the seed have the same traits as the mother plants. Hope it gets into cultivation some day. Love the topic Phil. Keep it up.

JEFF

[paulgila]

do all p.napaliensis sucker?

enquiring minds want to know...

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Hey Phil, Wasn't Pinanga phillippinensis called P. elmerii before? I think you cant find a couple good photos under that name...

[Phil]

Jeff, Paul and others,

So the picture of Pritchardia napaliensis shook your world. It did mine a few years back. Everyone knows Pritchardia are a single trunk fan palm from Hawaii and a few South Pacific Islands. Many on this Board are growing Pritchardia and that is what they see.

You can imagine how shocked I was to visit National Tropical Botanical Gardens (Pacific Tropical Gardens) on the Island of Kauai about 8 years ago. They have areas dedicated to the culture and growth of palms at the facility. I saw this grouping of Pritchardia, but they looked funny. They had hardly any trunk and from a distance appeared to be loaded with blossoms. As I got nearer, I could see they weren't blossoms at all, but actual suckers. There were multiple suckers at the base of all the trunks. And, all of the plants were doing this (perhaps ten or more).

I immediately sought out the advice of Melany Chappin, a botanist who worked at the Garden at the time. She happened to be in one of the research buildings close by. My question to her probably started with a "What the heck is going on with those Pritchardia napaliensis over there? They are suckering..." or something like that. She calmly said "yes, you are right". So, I gleaned from her the whole story about what she knew. There had been about three trips to the Napali Coast on the western side of the island. Each time seeds were collected from habitat on this species. The trees from which the seeds were collected were all single trunk. But, when the Garden germinated these seeds and started growing them in the Garden, all were showing this sukering nature. She ventured possible explantations. Perhaps domestic culture gave them the opportunity to sucker. I.e, more nutrition and water, etc. Or, perhaps they do sucker in the wild but wild animals eat the suckers and we don't ever seen them. Or, perhaps the suckers form, naturally die off and thus are never seen in habitat. Of note, the seeds grown all showed this phenomena and came from three different collecting sites on three different occasions. I haven't been back to the garden since, so I can't comment on whether these suckers (photos below) just withered away. I'd love feedback on this in anyone has more recent photos. I think perhaps Melany finally got around to publishing something on this. But, it is an amazing story.

Photos of Pritchardia napaliensis at PTBG:

And a picture from habitat at PACSOA

Phil

[Phil]

(more on Pritchardia napaliensis previously)

Today I'd like to talk about Dypsis lastelliana. Before you roll your eyes and say to yourself, "Oh, I know everything about the Teddy Bear", please continue reading below.

Together with Dypsis leptocheilos, these two species were first introduced in the mid to late 1980's by various field persons, including Mardi Darian. Initially they were thought to be the same. Names like "Redneck" and "Teddy Bear Palm" were attached to both of them. But, differences both morphologically and culturally were found. So, it became apparent that we were dealing with two species. They became known as "Neodypsis lastelliana" and "Neodypsis lastelliana variety dariani". Then, after John Dransfield's work, they became Dypsis. But, there had never been a formal taxonomical description of the "dariani" variety. Don Hodel discovered this fact and set out to describe it. After his research, he found that it did qualify to be its own species. However, he did not keep the common name. He reasoned that Mardi already had a palm named after him (Marojejya dariani), so he named it D. leptocheilos. You can imagine that Mardia Dariani was probably quite disappointed with this as he had basically introduced this plant into the cultural world. This brings us to present time, except for the fact that there might be "other species" from different habitats. Time and taxonomy will let us know about this in the future.

Below is a picture of a 5g Dypsis lastelliana. It is about 2 to 3 feet tall.

Below is a closer view. Note the silver stripes on the new spear. You will see similar stripes on the petiole of a larger tree.

Below is a picture of a different plant, a 5g Dypsis lastelliana from the Masoala Cape in Madagascar. It might end up looking different.

Now let's look at some bigger specimens. Here's a juvenile tree in cultivation. Note how the leaflets go all the way down the petiole into the crown ( near the stem).

So, above you see two main ways of telling D. lastelliana from D. leptocheilos: The silver stripes and the leaflets crowding into the crown with lack of any bare petiole.

Continued.

Phil

[Phil]

Dypsis lastelliana continued.

Let's look closer at those "stripes". Below is a closeup that (despite being a dark picture) shows some of the silver stripes on the petiole of the lastelliana.

The photograph below was taken only to demonstrate the fact that the leaflets go right to the bottom of the leaf stem of the lastelliana:

Here's a photo of a bit larger tree:

And a closeup of the crown showing it's fuzzy red and the beautiful silver, ringed trunk.

Continued.

Phil

[Phil]

Dypsis lastelliana continued.

Below is a mature tree, Dypsis lastelliana.

For completeness sake, let's look at the Dypsis leptocheilos to see the differences. Below is a crown shot of a mature Dypsis leptchocheilos growing in Southern California. Note the foot or so of bare petiole at the base of the leaf.

Another example:

And another domestic planting.

Continued.

Phil

[Phil]

Dypsis lastelliana/leptocheilos continued.

Another distinguishing point on larger trees is that the trunk of the lastelliana is larger. And, some feel the fuzzy crown shaft is more red colored than the rusty colored leptocheilos. I mentioned there were cultural differences. This is true. Dypsis letpocheilos tolerates more cold than lastelliana and is easier to grow in Southern California. There are D. lastelliana around in our locality, but far more leptocheilos.

Below is a picture of Dypsis lastelliana in habitat. (photo by J.C.)

Below is a picture of Dypsis leptocheilos in the wild. (J.C.)

And, just to tease you, here are two photos of Dypsis lastelliana X Dypsis decaryi:

Pretty cool, huh? I hope you now know a bit more about those common "Teddy Bears". This is enough for now. Take care,

Phil

[BS Man about Palms]

Hi Phil. I have great hope for the D. lastelliana and have what I can see as 4 different varieties planted out here on the coast. I do find that not All of them have the "silver lines" as you noted, only some from the recent past? My largest one pictured does not show them at all.

Thanks for the info again.

[Phil]

Bill,

You are correct that there are probably other forms or species. But, when I ID a D. lastelliana that I am positive about, it's essentially been universal that I see the stripes.

Now, let's talk about the Coconut Palm. Everyone loves this one. It's the banner plant for the Palm World. It adorns hotels, tropical beaches and is the ultimate challenge for palm growers here in So Cal.

Here's a few photos:

Coconut Palms next to the water in HI on a windy day:

A juvenile Coconut Palm

Looking up into a stand of tall Coconuts:

And here's a particularly nice specimen palm that is quite tall:

Continued.

Phil

[Phil]

Group,

I don't know what it is, but growing a Coconut in So Cal has almost obsessed some enthusiasts. It's as if one of these enthusiasts says to himself, "I know I can do it. And, I have this special microclimate and a few tricks including my big boulders". "My organic tea and three inches of kelp mulch let me do things no one else can do". It is true that there are some alive for a few seasons here and there. (Yes, I know about the one in Newport Beach). And, perhaps these comments will result in an onslaught of pictures from growers. But, overall, the results are dismall. Home Depot every years sells thousands of coconuts that almost universally are headed for the mulch pile. Why do they die? We just get too cold for too long. I think growers in areas of Florida with the same low temps as ours can pull it off. This is because such areas in Florida see the cold temps for a few days and are then thrown back into tropical, muggy heat. The plant has the ability to bounc back and grow through the insult. Our winters come on slowly (typically with a gradual lowering of the mean temp), last quite a while and then slowly warm back up.

In many areas of So Cal, Coconuts don't typically "die overnight". They sucuumb slowly, often not kicking the bucket until the Spring or Summer after the cold damage. But, if you get really cold, they will turn brown almost overnight.

In any case, if you like Coconuts and you really want to grow one, YOU HAVE TO READ MY NEXT POST! I'll be posting it either later today or tomorrow, Tuesday. But, I invite everyone here today to make comments about Cocconuts. Look again at the previous photographs I put up on the last post and tell me why you like these palms. Or, why you don't. Show me your photos please. Tell us your ideas on how to grow a Coconut. Or, if you think this is totally boring and don't want to play, reconsider. I would really like feedback before I move on.

A nice Photo of Cocos nucifera from PACSOA. Don't you love how this palm grows right on the water?

Phil

[Shon]

Don't forget about Steve's Del Mar coconut.

[paulgila]

looking forward to it,phil!

[Phil]

Shon,

Yes, I know. But, does Steve's palm look this good?

Phil

[Phil]

OK Guys,

I promised you something. For those of you who know me well, you know that if I have something to say, I just say it. But above, I promised something but didn't say it. That was a hint. Something was up; time for a game. What I did say is that it's near impossible for most to grow Coconut Palms in Southern California. And, I invited you all to look at the pictures, even posting one picture a second time. But, only three were Coconuts. The fourth is Syagrus Amara.

The photo above is not a Coconut. But, about 130 people viewed this thread and no one commented that it was not a Coconut. That's because Syagrus amara does look like a Coconut. It would have fooled me. Not to totally deceive you, if you look carefully at the captions of each picture, no where did I say that this particular palm was a Coconut. I said " particularly nice specimen palm that is quite tall".

The reason I did this is to point out that there are single trunk palm trees that definitely have a

Coconut appearance. Syagrus amara is from the lesser Antilles Islands and gets very tall with about an 8 to 10 inch thick trunk. It's fruits are very large and orange, about the size of a hen's egg. It is reasonably cold hardy with some people reporting it's survival at 27 degrees. But the thing I remember most is its resemblence to the Coconut. So, how do they look when they're small?

Below is a 5g Syagrus amara, height about 6 feet.

And below is a closer view of the leaves. It's interesting that this species puts out huge juvenile simple foliage. All the Syagrus do this, but S. amara is particularly known for huge leaves before going pinnate. That's a way to help you recognize it at this stage.

I know some of you might feel disappointed, thinking that I was going to reveal some hidden secret to the success of growing Coconuts out here. There are a few, but my point here was rather to say that there's another palm that looks like a Coconut and is a lot easier to grow. My son Paul told me that perhaps some readers would feel like I had tried to trick them. That was not my intent. Rather, it was to show you that there is a palm that you can grow successfully in your back yard and gaze out at it and think you're in Hawaii.

Continued.

Phil

[Phil]

Syagrus amara continued:

Phil

[palmislandRandy]

Beside the temp issue, would humidity be a factor for California coconuts?

[palmislandRandy]

Phil, any more Pinanga stuff? And thanks for taking the time to post all this unique information!

[gsn]

Looking up into a stand of tall Coconuts:

Phil since you brought it up, the palms in pic #3 are also not coconuts.

Unless coconuts are clean crown shafted palms?

Edited December 23, 2008 by gsn

[Urban Rainforest]

Cali Coco . The Del Mar Coco is now 14 ft. tall with a 14" dia. trunk and into it's 7th winter!

Stevo

[Phil]

Scott, perhaps your eyes are better than mine, but as I recall that shot was taken on the grounds of a very old tourist cultural center on Kuaia. Steve, yes there are a few Coconuts here and there in So Cal. I have this suspicion if one can find a Pacific Tall variety, he will have a better chance of growing it here. I heard a story of a 15 footer in Point Loma that was so admired by others that someone offered to buy it from the owner. The deal was struck and it died soon after being dug. At the nursery I've grown Coconuts about three times. I've purchased germinated seeds from FL and potted them up in the nursery. Our winter low's in the greenhouse are about 38 degrees, more or less. Each time I tried, most died during the next winter. If one has a garden where he never sees below 40 degrees, there's a chance. My own neighborhood where I live might be such an area, but I've never tried one in my garden. But, such warmer areas are rare. And finally Randy: I really don't think it's a matter of humidity. Our greenhouses are humid, yet they still died. And, right on the coast during the winter the humidity isn't low at all. It just gets cold.

Now let's talk about another palm that can trick you. That's Normanbya normambyi. This genus is monotypic, only having one species to the genus. It is native to Queensland, Australia but apparently also found in New Guinea. It is a species that begins with a flat leaf and later becomes plumose. The leaflets are wedge shaped with irregular, jagged ends. The leaves of mature palms are very fluffy and plumose.

First let's look at a plant from my nursery. Note that the leaflets are in one plane.

Normanbya normanbyi, 15g plant about 8 feet tall

A closer look at the crown shaft area, showing the black colored markings.

And a closeup of the base of this plant. I've seen this "bulge" at the very bottom frequently.

So, why is Normanbya tricky? Read further.

Phil

[Phil]

Normanbya continued:

So, why is Normanbya a tricky palm? I'll show a series of "this one" and "that one" pictures to make a point:

This one: (oops, you know what this is)

And, that one:

Are they the same species?

Check out these two photographs.

This one:

and that one:

Continued.

Phil

[Phil]

Normanbya continued:

Check out this one:

and that one:

We are comparing here two very similar appearing plants. All the "this one" photographs are Normanbya. All the "that one" photographs are Wodyetia bifurcata. You can see how similar appearing they are. In my nursery it is very common for customers to get them confused when they are small. But, after you read below you will always be able to tell them apart.

Here's one difference: the black markings on the upper crown shaft of a good sized Normanbya. If you go back to the 15g plant, you also see it there.

A closeup of the black tomentum on the Normanbya.

Continued.

Phil

[Phil]

Normanbya continued.

Below is a closeup of the upper crown shaft area of the Wodyetia from the Fairchild website. You'll note there is a little bit of black markings, but not as apparent.

There is a difference in caliper of the trunk. Normanbya is typically thinner. And, the seeds are different appearing.

But, the easiest way to tell them apart is the underside of the leaflets. Normanbya are a blue or silver color. Wodyetia are plain green.

Look for the underside color on this picture of the Normanbya. This pictures shows that blue color.

On this PACSOA picture below, you can see the underside of the Wodyetia leaf is plain green.

Both leaves are fluffy with jagged leaflets. Only one is blue on the underside.

Now you can tell the difference between these two similar appearing plants. Thanks for reading.

Phil

[Jeff Searle]

Looking up into a stand of tall Coconuts:

Phil since you brought it up, the palms in pic #3 are also not coconuts.

Unless coconuts are clean crown shafted palms?

Scott,

You are absolutely, positively, 100% right. Damn!! You have very good eyes. When I first saw the picture, I questioned for a split second that it didn't look "coconuty". But I kept going. Only after you pointed it out, I zoomed in to the one on the left and sure enough, there were the the flower spikes sticking out. Great call! I'm impressed.

Jeff

[quaman58]

Phil,

Of all people, I should have noticed the Syagrus amara in the pic. When I first started this hobby about five years ago, I saw that image on your site, along with your description. I think it was the third or fourth puchase I made from you. It's one of my favorite palms in the garden. Very cold tolerant, beautiful dark green humongus strap leaves. (Still) I'm hoping it goes pinnate in my lifetime!

Bret

[Phil]

Scott and Jeff,

Sorry I can't say more on the photo as it's from the early 90's. But, you get the point of the post. For sure, you have keen eyes and I'll recommend both of you to Bo as photo editors for Palms. Brett, I think people have a tendency to skip past Syagrus, saying "They're just another Queen Palm". As many here know, that is not the case and they are an exciting group of plants. There's short ones, tall ones, fat ones, suckering ones, one's with different color, etc.

Now for a Christmas Eve quickie. I first really started thinking about Kerriodoxa elegans when I visited the garden of U.A. Young in Tampa about 25 years ago. U.A. gave me a tour and pointed out his favorites. Although not one of the latter group, he showed me a Kerriodoxa. It was at the back of his house. It stood about six or seven feet tall. I remember the intense silver to the back of the leaves, the near solid fan leaf (like a Licuala) and the black petiole. I was impressed. He said it had seen the temps into the 20's multiple times. This inspried me to give it a try.

Below is a picture of the Florida legend, U. A. Young, standing next to Kerriodoxa, showing you the silver back to the leaf.

Then in 1998 the IPS had its Post Tour in Southern Thailand where we visited a native habitat for Kerriodoxa elegans. For those who remember, this was a memorable moment from that trip. Hundreds of Kerriodoxa crowded against a single slope.

At the Nursery, I've found that Kerriodoxa elegans is not the easiest palm to grow. They are slow and a bit fickle. But, they tend to plug away. Outdoors, I would consider it a marginal plant only for the warmest areas of So Cal. Below is a 5g plant. It's about 18 inches tall. They put on a lot of leaves before they make any vertical height. I'd guess the age at about 4 years at least.

And below is the back side of a leaf of the plant above.

Continued.

Phil

[Phil]

Kerriodoxa elegans continued.

Below is a picture of kerriodoxa showing the flat, near complete leaf. You can see how it sort of looks like the leaf of a solid-leaf Licuala.

And another shot showing the same.

And here's a closeup of the back side of the leaf. The silver color is impressive. Note how dark the petiole is.

Below is a shot of the base of the plant where you can really see how black the petioles are.

Continued.

Phil

[Phil]

Kerriodoxa elegans continued.

Below is another shot from habitat.

And finally a unique domestic shot from PlantaPalm website showing the white-silver color of the back of all the leaves.

It would be fun if people gave their experience with this species, especially for those in the So Cal area.

Happy Holidays to All.

Phil

[BS Man about Palms]

Phil, I have one of these from "the mountain" in that awful mix. I rarely fertilise and usually don't give it enough water. Yet it just plugs along, pushing out a leaf probably every 3 months or so. Pretty hardy to my eyes.

[Phil]

Bill,

It's always satisfying to hear successful feedback from people about tougher-to-grow species here in So Cal. This is a gorgeous species when well grown and I'd be interested to see if there is more feedback from others on this species.

Phil

[Phil]

Good Morning Group,

This morning I want to talk about another genus of palms that you hardly ever see anyone comment on. That is Chuniophoenix. This genus has two species: C. hainanensis and C. nana (aka humilus). Both are from China with some native colonies in Viet Nam. Both are suckering. C. hainanensis is taller than nana. Whenever you read the world "nana", the plant is usually small. Chuniophoenix looks a bit like Rhapis. They are suckering with thin trunks and small palmate leaves. And, they can be grown in So Cal.

Decades ago I first saw a Chuniophoenix nana at a collectors garden. I was taken by how cute it was. Several years later I got seeds of C. hainanensis, and was a bit disappointed that I didn't get nana. I prefered the diminutive size of the nana. Seeds of C. nana became available about 6 years ago, so I got a bunch. Now those plants are in 5g & 15g and looking good.

Below is a picture of Chuniophoenix nana in a 15g container. The plant is about 5 feet tall and shows some blossoms on one picture. This is a mature plant. I won't get any taller.

Here's a somewhat closer shot of the same plant:

Now a closeup of the leaf. You'll note that this plant is not silver on the underside of the leaf like the previously described Keriodoxa. Also, it suckers. Another defining characteristic is the lack of hastula (the flap of tissue at the point where the petiole meets the leaf, either on top or bottom of leaf).

And now for a closeup of the stems. You can see old blossoms with perhaps a few nonviable seeds.

Continued:

Phil