Huge Palm, Cycad & Tropical Plant Sale

[Phil]

I posted a picture of Masoala madagascarensis on the main Discussion group. I thought I might as well show it here with a few more views. The problem is that there are not any good pictures of large specimens that I can easily find here or on the Net. But, because so many people ask about it, I thought I'd show these shots anyway.

Masoala madagascarensis, 5g pot, about 18 inches tall, 4 years old+:

A bit closer view:

A closeup of the leaf:

And a closeup of the base showing the characteristic dark brown speckling on the base of the petioles:

I did a search for a mature tree on this website and on the Net, but couldn't find any suitable shot for you. If anyone has a picture, please post it here. I guess that the lack of web presence demonstrates that it's just a very rare Madagascar palm.

Phil

[Phil]

Masoala last post.

For those Zamia people, I'd thought I'd throw out an unknown. Below is a plant I've been growing for about 5 or 6 years in a citrus pot sized container. It is about 2 feet tall. I don't know for sure what it is. If anyone wants to take a guess, let me know.

Unknown Zamia species:

Below is a closeup of the leaflets of the same plant. I'd estimate size of the leaflets to be about 4 inches long and about 2/5 inches wide:

You might think this is a Zamia skinneri. I don't think so. The leaflets are not plicate on the mystery plant (not "Pringles Potato Chip texture"), but rather sort of smooth. Below is a picture of a similar sized Zamia skinneri:

And below is a closeup of the leaflets of Zamia skinneri. Notice the plicated groves in the leaflets. It's not the same plant.

I actually really like both plants. The different forms of Zamia skinneri and Zamia neurophyllidia is a whole other topic. But the cute mystery plant above is also quite nice.

Phil

[galveston1602]

Let me say, thanks again for everything you do posting in this thread... and yes, I read the posts and look at the pictures

[Phil]

Zamia skinneri continued:

I couldn't leave this species without first showing you a few more pictures of the truly amazing Zamia skineri. This species is unique because of the pleated leaflets, the large leaflets and the overall attractive nature of the plant. Of note, some varieties throw new leaves which are green, others more of a bronze, and others "red". The latter variety is highly sought after and referred to as "red emergent". This red color lasts for a month or so, eventually turning to green.

Here's a picture showing the red emergent leaves of this variety of Zamia skinner (picture by RM):

Below is another closeup of the leaflet showing the plicate appearance:

Another picture showing the newly emergent red leaves on a larger plant:

And below is a picture of Zamia skinneri in habitat showing how large and impressive the leaflets become (photo by RM):

One must appreciate how gorgeous some Zamias actually are. This is why (if you can grow them), cycads make excellent companion plants with the palms. Next on to another subject.

Phil

[Phil]

Zamia skinneri last post.

Now on to another species. I have always had a desire to visit Cuba. From my earliest years in palms, I came to realize that a lot of the best palms around came from Cuba. Thirty years ago I'd mull through the few existing texts on palms and find that many of the best photographs were taken in Cuba in the "pre-Castro" years. Genera like Roystonea, Copernicia, Colpothrinax, Coccothrinax...etc. all seemed to come from there. Later I visited Fairchild Botanical Gardens and saw their towering Copernicia baileyana. I was awestruck. These giant palms with their columnar fat trunks and stiff, upright, near complete leaves were a sight to behold.

Copernicia baileyana at Fairchild:

Here's a picture of a smaller plant. It shows the appearance of the leaf. The leaf is very flat and large. It is divided, but only for about 1/3 of the leafs length. Look how the central portion of the leaf is solid with no divisions:

When I found out that we could possibly grow them in Southern California, I sought out seeds of Copernicia (any type) and began germination. I then found out how slow they are to grow into a reasonably sized plant. In my hands, it was taking five years to get a good sized 1 gallon plant. But, I figured it was worth the wait.

Imagine how impressive the Copernicia baileyana is. A trunk of 2 feet diameter and height of about 40 feet.

Could it get even better than this?

Copernicia continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Copernicia continued:

Could it get even better than this? I don't think so.

But then one day I heard about a "new" Copernicia: Copernicia fallaense. It was like a Copernicia baileyana on steroids! Trunks up to sixty feet, three feet in diameter. And, one more surprise: it's leaves are blue! As predicted, once again, Cuba gets to take credit for this fine species.

The problem is that seeds are very difficult, if not impossible, to obtain. With due diligence I have gotten seeds a few times and growth rate has once again proven to be quite slow. Below is a seedling of about 4 years age of Copernicia fallaense:

A closeup of the leaflet of this small plant:

It might be reasonable for the reader to ask: "Why show such a little palm?". This is totally understandable. But, people post pictures of tiny Dypsis all the time. Copernicia fallaense is equally as majestic and beautiful as almost all the Dypsis. Sometimes an enthusiast has to know what the palm is going to look like when mature, and base his selections of species to grow on that knowledge. He tells himself "I love that palm!" and tries to find one, regardless of the size if supplies are extremely limited. This is one of those species and you can't drop by a nursery looking for a 36 inch boxed specimen. To provide photographic evidence of my point, I must refer you to page 93 of Paul Craft's book "Encyclopedia ofCultivated Palms". He has, without a doubt, the best pictures of this species. There you will see how gorgeous this species really is. (of note, one of the real accomplishments Paul made with his book is the inclusion of all the habitat pictures of Cuban species found nowhere else). But, to give you a bit of a taste right now of this great species, below are a few pictures from the PlantaPalm website:

Copernicia fallaense, far from mature size, in a domestic planting:

And a closeup of the leaf to show the blue color:

I hope you liked this exciting and extremely rare species.

This palm and almost every species described throughout all the previous posts are available at our nursery. Thanks for reading.

Phil

[BS Man about Palms]

Phil- Nice selection on the Copernicia genus! I'll stop by again to find another subject for you....lol

[Phil]

Good morning.

Today I wanted to discuss something that most people think they know pretty well. As previously stated, there's always a bit more one can learn. We're going to discuss Archontophoenix tuckeri.

We are fortunate that, here in Southern California, many enthusiasts can grow all species of Archontophoenix. The winter of 2007 taught us a few things. People had conjectured that Archonotophoenix purpurea was the most cold hardy of all the Archontophoenix. That proved not to be the case. I have a customer who had a row of large Archontophoenix in the eastern Encinitas area. He had garden temps into the low 20's. This row of palms alternated: A. cunninghamiana alternating with purpurea. About twenty palms total, half purpurea, and all at least 15 feet tall. Guess what happened? Every other palm died; only the purpurea. He was left with half as many Archontophoenix standing in 6 months, all of them cunninghamiana. So, out the window went the idea that purpurea was the most cold hardy. In general, Archontophoenix take down into the mid-twenties F. Some might go a bit lower.

Archontophoenix tuckeri is from the rain forest area of northern Queensland. An educated guess (based on locality) would tell you that it might be the least cold hardy of the bunch. But, experience during 2007 taught us that it's not that bad. It was named after the founder of the palmetum garden in Townsville. Prior to that time it was called "Archontophoenix Peach River". These older names are sort of interesting. So, I'll list them here as you still might hear them from time to time. They were given the names below originally by locality in Australia:

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana: King Palm or to Australians the Bungalow or Piccabeen Palm.

Archontophoenix alexandrae: Alexandra King or Alexandra King Palm (note there is a variety of this called "beatricae" that has a more swollen base and stepoffs at the trunk growth rings)

Archontophoenix maxima: Archontophoenix "walsh river"

Archontophoenix myolensis: Archontophoenix "kurunda range"

Archontophoenix purpurea: Archontophoenix "mt. lewis"

Archontophoenix tuckeri: Archonotopheonix "peach river"

Below is a 5g Archontophoenix tuckeri. Its height is about six or seven feet.

Below is another view of the same:

And here's a photo of the back of the leaf. Note that it does show some silver color. The regular King Palm is plain green. This silver is not as intense as purpurea.

And finally below you will see the base of this 5g plant:

Archontophoenix tuckeri continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Archontophoenix tuckeri continued:

Below is a picture of Archontophoenix tuckeri, the back of the leaf of a larger plant:

Here's a few of two juvenile trees between two houses in Encinitas, CA:

Below is a nice picture of one in fruit (PACSOA)

And a closer look at the fruit and crown shaft of the tree above:

Archontophoenix tuckeri continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Archontophoenix tuckeri continued:

Below is a PACSOA picture of the cleaned tuckeri seeds. Seed size can sometimes help identify the species. A. tuckeri seeds are large and very fibrous:

Tobias Spanner took this nice photo of A. tuckeri:

John Dowe did a lot of the work on Arhcontophoenix. In an article at PACSOA (Australia), there is an excellent key on how to tell apart the different species of Archontophoenix. Click on the link below to check it out.

Archontophoenix key

If you check out this key, you will find that one way to help identify species is by looking for "ramenta". Below is a definition of ramenta:

Ramenta \Ra*men"ta\, n. pl. [L., scrapings.] (Bot.)

Thin brownish chaffy scales upon the leaves or young shoots

of some plants, especially upon the petioles and leaves of

ferns. --Gray.

You will note that only A. cunninghamiana and purpurea have ramenta. The others don't. I apologize that I don't have a picture to show what ramenta looks like, but I'll try to get one. I look at it all the time.

To end, I want to show you one of my favorite photos. It was taken on the Island of Hawaii (Big Island) from a bridge. It looks at a naturalized stand of Archontophoenix alexandraw in a gorge with flowering Coral Trees mixed in.

Take care and we'd love to see you at the nursery.

Phil

[rukiddingme]

Masoala last post.

Below is a picture of a similar sized Zamia skinneri:

Phil, cost of the above Zamia please.

[freakypalmguy]

Wow, those big leaf Zamias are magnificent. Can they handle any cold if given some canopy? My cold?

[Phil]

Matt,

I am afraid that Temucula cold is too much for the tropical Zamia. You should build a little greenhouse for those things you just can't resist.

Phil

[freakypalmguy]

Thank you Phil. Still enjoying this thread a bunch.

Matt

[rukiddingme]

Cost of the Zamia please.

[Phil]

Archontophoenix continued:

First, thanks to all of you who give feedback. And to Ruk, below is a link to our cycad prices. The "mystery plant" sold already.

Cycad Prices

Now, back to our subject at hand. When I thought about talking about Archontophoenix, I hesitated because it could get into a very broad discussion. But, because I started it, I guess I'll just have to continue. Everyone reading can tell the color of a crown shaft and recognize the silver underside of a leaf. But, that won't give you all the answers. You need to examine plants in other ways. I will post again the definition of ramenta:

Ramenta \Ra*men"ta\, n. pl. [L., scrapings.] (Bot.)

Thin brownish chaffy scales upon the leaves or young shoots

of some plants, especially upon the petioles and leaves of

ferns. --Gray.

John Dransfield in POM defines ramenta as "rather thin elongate scales with ragged edges"

This is an important part of John Dowe's key to understanding the species. I did a web search yesterday thinking I'd find a picture of ramenta on palms. It doesn't exist. So, I too some photographs of more Archontophoenix to help people understand how to distinguish the species. Below is the key written by John Dowe at PACSOA:

Table Of Differences In Species Of Archontophoenix

Species C/shaft Leaf Flower Fruit

A. alexandrae light-mid green long/twisted: grey scales; no ramenta white/cream stamens 9-16 pink/red: 8-14 mm fibres thick

A. cunninghamiana dark green/red/purple long/twisted: no grey scales; ramenta lilac/purple stamens 9-18 red: 10-15 mm fibres thick

A. maxima mid green long/erect/twisted: grey scales; no ramenta white: stamens 11-16 red: 13-15 mm fibres thin

A. myolensis blue/green long/twisted:grey scales; no ramenta white/cream: stamens 14-24 red: 13-21 mm fibres thin

A. purpurea red/purple long/flat: grey scales; ramenta white/cream: stamens 20-34 dark red: 20-26 mm fibres thick

A. tuckeri light- mid green short/flat: grey scales; no ramenta white/cream: stamens 13-19 red/brick red: 17-25 mm fibres thin

Note that two (in bold above) have ramenta. These are Archontophoenix cunninghamiana and Archontophoenix purpurea. Let's take a look at some photos I took yesterday at the Nursery. This hair can be on the leaves or petioles. It is very frustrating to find that taxonomists use this term but nowhere could I find a picture of what in the heck they are talking about. So, here we go:

A. cunninghamiana (15g about 8 feet tall), a closeup near the crown spear. Look at how you can see hairy scales on the petioles. It looks as if you could "feel it" as well as "see it".

Now a closer view of the same subject above. Toward the bottom of the petiole you can see the fuzzy ramenta:

But, what about the leaves themselves. Are there these hairy scales there? I examined the species at my greenhouse and below (and next post) you'll see what I saw. I think the photos below are the first Net published pictures of this ramenta on the leaves. Many of you have looked for it and seen it, but it's just not on the Internet for people to learn from.

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana, ventral (underside) of leaf showing hairy scales along the central vein of the leaf. You have to look closely at the central vein (looks like a tiny straw) and notice the brown tubular attachments to this vein:

Can' quite see it? You will in the next closeup photo. They look like tiny, skinny brown insects attached along the central vein:

So, why is this important? Remember that only two species have the ramenta: cunninghamiana and purpurea. In the next post we'll look at the purpurea.

Archontophoenix continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Archontophoenix continued:

I have to thank MattyB for visiting the Nursery a few weeks ago and initiating the conversation on ramenta. It is a key to helping ID the Archontophoenix species.

Below we'll look at some photos of Archontophoenix purpurea. There are a few tricks to identifying this species. If it was as simple as "look for the purple crown shaft", we'd all be taxonomists. But, this species has great variation in this purple color and the color does not show on juvenile (especially potted) plants. But ramenta is a key to the identification. Latter I'll discuss a few other characteristics, but first we'll take a look at a picture of the central crown of A. purpurea.

A. purpurea, 5g plant about 4 to 5 feet tall, closeup of the central crown. Note the fuzzy brown material on the base oif the petioles:

Here's a closer view of the same plant with a closeup of the petiole. You can easily see the fuzzy ramenta:

To continue this point, below is a 15g larger plant. Here's a picture of the central crown of this plant. You can once again see the fuzzy stuff:

And what about the back of the A. purpurea leaf? What do we see there? Below is a picture of the purple crown shaft leaf, ventral side, showing those "insect appearing" ramenta structures, almost identical to those seen on the cunninghamiana on the last post:

Archontophoenix continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Archontopheonix continued:

One might say, "what's the big deal with a little fuzz?". The response is: This helps tell the species apart. Otherwise there's confusion about which species you're looking at. To show this, let's examine another species and show the lack of ramenta.

Here's a picture of the upper crown of Archontophoenix myolensis. You will note that the crown, base of the petiole and stem are very clean. No fuzz. No ramenta seen. Near "clean as a whistle":

Archontopheonxi myolensis crown, 15 g plant about 8 feet tall:

And here's a look at the back siide of the Archontophoenix myolensis leaf. Once again, no ramenta:

And now for another species. Below is the crown of a 15g Archontophoenix maxima. Once again, no significant ramenta:

What about the lunderside of the leaf of A. maxima? On the same plant, no ramenta on the ventral leaf. No "fuzzy little insects" are seen.

Archontophoenix continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Archontophoenix continued:

Earlier this morning I informed you that this is quite an extensive subject. However, now you are well on your way to telling the species apart. Below is the same picture I posted yesterday of Archontopheonix tuckeri, the back of the leaf. Do you see ramenta?

Indeed you don't. Below is the lower crown shaft area and proximal stems of A. tuckeri:

Pretty clean, huh? Remember only two species have ramenta: A. cunninghamiana and purpurea. If time permits, tomorrow I'll tell more about all the species and things other then ramenta to tell them apart. It's going to be fun.

Archontophoenix purpurea, Fairchild photo:

It's Saturday and once again I'm off to the Nursery for our main sales day. I would appreciate feedback as to whether you understand my explanations and photos above. I guarantee you that you will not find this extensive an explanation of the species in any palm book or on the Net (I've looked). Questions are certainly permissible. Have a nice weekend.

Phil

[rukiddingme]

Phil:

I don't want to put a negative spin on this thread because it's such a cool one, but I would ask that for those particular plants from your nursery that do not have a price on your website (like the Zamia) that you please indicate what the price is when you post the photo, that's the main thrust of this part of the forum. The link you gave for the Zamia provides only a starting price for the cost, I think 350+ it stated on the link, this is no help to a buyer.

[BS Man about Palms]

I for one would like to see this thread continue as it is, kinda straddling two areas of the forum, sales and discussions. I'm afraid if asked to provide too much of one or the other, it will cease and I enjoy it immensely. I would say if you can't find the price, PM Phil or go to the nursery.

Thanks for Archo/ramenta info Phil. I had never bothered to really collect these, so it was useful info.

[freakypalmguy]

Absolutely great info Phil. I have what I bought as A. purpurea, but now I am not sure. It appears to have ramenta on the main stem and rachis, but zero on the leaflets. I will start another thread in the main area to see if I can get an ID.

Also the Cycad info was very informative as well. I was able to more definitively ID my E. princeps 4 leaf seedling. The hardest for me sometimes to differentiate between is E. trispinosus and horridus. Sometime they are easy, but other seam to have very similar characteristic. Lot's of variation.

Matt

[Phil]

Ruk,

Thanks for your post.

The price is $350 for that plant, as it is posted at the link. But, it's 20% off, presently $280. It's extremely rare. The reason there is a "+" on the database is because cycads, as posted at the database, are sold by cuadex size and age, not by container size. Palms, however, are sold by container size.

You mentioned that I should "indicate what the price is when you post the photo, that's the main thrust of this part of the forum. " In a way, you are correct and I try to always link to our price database where possible.

But, as this thread has evolved, selling plants is presently not the "main thrust" of this thread. It's actually more about education. Selling palms certainly is a nursery goal, but it's not my main goal with this present thread at this point. The first day I posted, I meant it just as a usual type nursery post. But, it has evolved since that point. I wouldn't have spent over 200 hours doing all these posts just to entice a few customers. That would be a very bad bean investment. It's actually about education of other palm enthusiasts, especially newer people who are trying to learn. I've got 32 years experience and am more than willing to share what I know. I remember recently talking to Mardi Darian about all his experience in Madagascar and encouraging him to write articles or even doing a monogrph. I fear his knowledge will forever be lost some day. I feel that knowledge should be shared. This forum is an easy way to share information and data with others. So, in answer to your post, the actual sales of plants is not the main goal in this thread presently and I've mentioned this many times throughout my posts. Statistically, members of this group account for less than 2% of my sales, so I must be getting something else out of my efforts here. At that is the satisfaction of sharing information. Perhaps this entire thread should be under "Discussing Palms Worldwide", but then people might complain that I'm "advertising' there and it should be here. So, here it sits.

If there's ever a question about prices, just call me if you can't find it at the database. And, with palms, our standard sales price on most things presently is 1g $28, 2g $32, 5g $52, and 15g $140.

Thanks for the feedback..

Phil

[palmislandRandy]

Please, please, please keep it up! I look forward to your posts, as they are an invaluable source of information. Keep the thread as is (OVER 9,500 Views) ! Thanks, Randy

[Brad-Tampa]

Phil,

Thanks for this thread, I am finding it very entertaining and educational. Please continue to add your experiences and if it leads to more sales that's a good thing. Also thank you for the kind words concerning my Dad, U A Young, in the Kerriodoxa section. The Kerriodoxa pictured is still there, not much bigger, but the C. crinta in the background has about 10 feet more trunk. I think I recognize a few more pictures of the garden too.

Brad Young

[Phil]

Randy, Matt and Bill,

Thanks as always for the feedback. It's satisfying to know people are reading this material.

And Brad,

What a pleasure it was for me to read your post. Back in the "old days", there were certain legends in the world of palms. And, there were certain gardens around the world that one "had to visit". The garden of U.A. Young in the Tampa area was one of those gardens and your father was one of those people. I had heard from many about U.A. Young. I knew he was an accomplished orthopedic surgeon and loved by many. And, he was reportedly gracious to visitors. He'd show them around and tell stories about the plants. So, about an estimated 20 years ago, I gave him a call. He invited me over and spent a few hours with me. I don't recall seeing his kids at the time; perhaps he made a comment that they were "in the house" or something like that. But I do remember how he told me a story about almost every palm int he garden.

To name a few, there was this unbelievably blue Serenoa repens that he had sought out and planted. At that time it was suckering with a lot of trunks. It's height was about 6 feet tall. I remember at the time thinking how it's color was as nice as a Brahea armata. What a great ornamental palm, especially given the fact that it would never get tall and had amazing color. I think the photo below was taken from your father's garden. I didn't notate it as this, but there's a clue. See the cycad in the front? That makes me think it's from that trip.

I also remember a very impressive Phoenix hybrid that should be absolutely huge by now. It was a suckering plant with massive trunks. It looked like a suckering Phoenix canariensis. Your Dad told me he had gotten seeds (as I recall) from Brazil and was quite impressed with it. I think he told me he collected the seeds himself but really had no idea what it was. If you looked toward the front of your house from the garden, it would have been to your right, closer to the street. It would be cool if you could post a picture of it now.

To the group, such legendary people such as U.A. Young and large palm gardens throughout the world were an inspiring thing for me. I daily went through the only good palm text at the time, Palms of the World by McCurroch. In the back the author listed palms known to be growing at various botanical gardns around the world. At the time, this was big news! These gardens included Fairchild, Chapman Field, Huntington, Bogor, and Rio. One by one I made my way to all of these except Rio. But apart from these public gardens were those gardens of dedicated enthusiasts. At that time, there were not a lot of palm gardens around. U.A.'s garden was one of them. I thank him to this day for being so kind and hospitable to me. You should be quite proud of him.

Next, more on Archonotophoenix.

Phil

[Phil]

Archontophoenix continued:

I trust that everyone now understands the topic of ramenta. One of you visited me yesterday and I pointed out these findings on an example of Archontophoenix purpurea. He said "OK, I got it". It helps tell you if you really have this species.

So, what about other characteristics of Archontophoenix? If needed, refer back to John Dowes key in the previous posts. Let's consider the color of the back of the leaf. Does that help? the answer is "sort of".

COLOR OF BACK OF LEAVES:

When I look at an Archontophoenix (and many other palms for that matter), one of the first things I do is look at the back of the leaves. If there's no hint of silver whatsoever, you are most likely dealing with Archontophoenix cunninghamiana. See the photo below:

A. cunninghamiana. Note plain green leaves (with ramenta hairs):

If there's a silver color, it is not cunninghamiana. But, there's an important point to make here. With seedlings, sometimes the silver color can be missing; it really has yet to develope. But, with palms that are in 5G or certainly 15g containers, you'll see silver on all the "non-cumminghamiana" species. In older times, we use to refer to all of these as "Alexandrae varieties". In other words, A. alexandrae, variety Mt. Lewis, or Alexandrae, variety Peach River, etc. Later these plants were given their own species status.

With this silver color, I can make one distinction. Archontophoenix purpurea seems to be the most silver, the most obvious silver. Compare the two below:

underside of leaf of a 15g Archontophoenix myolensis. It's certainly not green, but not as prominent of a silver as the comparisons below:

Now compare this to the underside of Archontophoenix purpurea seen in the next two photos. It is really apparent and more intense with this species. The same seems to apply to the other species of Archontophoenix as well.

Underside of a 15g A. purpurea leaf. Note how the silver color is more prominent than the myolensis above:

Here's the back side of a garden specimen of A. purpurea. Once again note the billiance of the silver color:

In summary, look at the back of the leaves:

No silver = cunninghamiana (if not a small plant)

Extremely silver, with ramenta, purpurea.

Sort of silver, read further:

Phil

[Phil]

Archontophoenix continued:

Now, what about the color of the crown, proximal petioles and crown shaft? I think this helps somewhat, but can be confusing at times.

COLOR OF CROWN, CROWNSHAFT AND PROXIMAL PETIOLES

When we think of the crownshaft, everyone gravitates towards that purple or purple-silver color of A. purpurea. However, the intensity of this color is variable on this species. It's not always purple. And, it takes time to develope. Young plants may have a green corwnshaft, or purple-green color.

Here's a picture of A. purpurea, showing color on the crown shaft. This is a domestic plant in the garden:

Here's another shot of A. purpurea, domestic and seeding tree in San Diego:

And here's a natural habitat picture from Mt. Lewis when my son Jesse and I visited this location:

I thought when I went to the habitat, I was going to be overwhelmed with the intense purple on all of the plant there. I was disappointd. It just wasn't seen. I think we've had photographic contests at this Site for people to post who's got the most purple of the A. purpureas. My point is that sometimes they're not that purple. But, there is a clue with the color. Especially when younger, A. purpurea has a gold or gold-green color to the petioles and the crown shaft. See the picture below:

A. purpurea 5g showing gold color:

Archontophoenix continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Archontophoenix continued:

COLOR OF CROWN, CROWN SHAFT AND PROXIMAL PETIOLES CONTINUED:

Here's another picture of A. purpurea, this time is a 15g container. Once again notice the gold color to the crown and petioles. The other species don't show this. And, when the plants become larger in the garden, this gold turns into a greener color and doesn't help much. But, in a container it's a big aid in identifying the species:

So, what else can we tell about the color of the crown and petioles. J. Dowe says that alexandrae, maxima and tuckeri are "light to mid-green", so it doesn't help with these. But, Archontophoenix myolensis is a bit different. Dowe says it is "blue-green". Let's look at a few photos of Myolensis

Archontophoenix myolensis crown shaft:

Here's a PACSOA picture showing the color of A. myolensis:

Is this helpful? Not so much to me on large trees. But, let's take a look at a smaller plant. I think it does help on them. Below is a picture of an Archontophoenix myolensis in a 15g container. To me they are very pure green, smooth and clean looking. Of all the Archontophoenix at this size, myolensis has the purest green color with a smoothness and clarity of color to the crownshaft area. It's not muddy like the cunninghamiana.

Base and crown shaft of a 15g Arch. myolensis:

In the potted plant above, do we see any hint of "blue" as Dowe mentioned? I don't see it at this stage. On the larger plants above, is there a hint of blue? You be the judge. For me, it's a "maybe".

Archontophoenix continued, later or perhaps tomorrow:

Phil

[Hilo Jason]

Hi Phil,

Just wanted to thank you for keeping this post going and all of the work you've put into it. I've been by your nursery a couple times in the past and I look forward to another visit soon.

Jason

[Phil]

Archontophoenix continued:

FLOWERS AND SEEDS

Reviewing the information above, we've now got a good handle on identifying A. cunninghamiana, purpurea, and myolensis. So, how do we know how to distinguish the others? Let's discuss this process of identifying the Archontophoenix a bit more.

The flower of Archontophoenix cunninghamiana is lilac or lavender color when it opens. Sorry, but presently I have no picture of this. All the others are white or cream-white. So, if you see a newly opening blossom and it's not lavender, you are not dealing with cunninghamiana. But, be aware, that this lavender color fades in time such that it is white when it sets seeds. See picture below and note that this cunninghamiana flower has aged and is now white:.

But, this doesn't help much with identification if all you see is white parts to the blossom. So, let's look at seeds. Interestingly, Archontopheonix alexandrae seeds are quite small. Check the key. They are the smallest. You will also see that A. tuckeri and purpurea seeds are nearly twice the size of alexandrae seeds.

Here's a picture by Tobias spanner of A. alexandrae seeds. Sorry, but there's nothing to judge the scale of these seeds:

Here's one of my photos of A. purpurea seeds. You can see that they are very good sized:

So, if you are examining a mature plant that has silver backs to the leaves and is dropping seeds, if the seeds are very large and the leaves have no ramenta, you are looking at Archontophoenix tuckeri. If the seeds are very small and there's no ramenta, they could be alexandrae, maxima or myolensis. But, remember the "blue-green" smooth crownshaft of myolensis. If that's not present, you're dealing with maxima or alexandrae.

LEAVES: FLAT OR TWISTED?

But, if there are no seeds or flowers, how else can one decide? If you refer to the key by Dowe, he only lists two species where the leaves are "flat". The two "flat leaves" are A. purpurea and tuckeri. What this means is that the leaves lay in flat plane; they don't rotate. Let's look at some pictures.

Archontophoenix purpurea from PACSOA demonstrating how the leaves are more or less "flat".

Archontophoeni continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Archontophoenix continued:

Here's a photo of Archontophoenix tuckeri. It too has flat leaves (not twisted on itself) (PACSOA):

So, only A. purpurea and tuckeri have flat leaves. How do you tell them apart? Tuckeri leaves are shorter than purpurea and once again purpurea have ramenta and possibly the purple crown shaft.

Here's a picture of one of the twisted sisters, Archontophoenix cunninghamiana. Remember that all the ones other than purpurea and tuckeri twist. Note that the leaves are twisted on their plane. Of the two palms, the palm on the right has a leaf above the root coming right at you. Note how it is twisted in a plane where it does not look back at the crown but rather to the side.

I will admit that this is a subtle finding, but this is one of the ways how the taxomomists tell them apart when flowers are not available. There are also subtle differences in the color of the fruit, the thickness of the fibers over the seeds, in trunk thickness, leaf length and overall stature.

Overall plant size and leaf length can help on mature specimens. Here's a few things about types other than cunninghamiana:

A. alexandrae: Tall, stout trunk, large crown,long leaves, somewhat drooping leaflets, slight swelling at base of trunk. Subvariety beatricae with basal bulge or stepoffs at the rings.

A. maxima: Tall, thick trunk, upright rigid leaves, near non-existent bare petioles,

A. myolensis: Not as tall as above, blue-green crownshaft, somewhat dependent leaflets, graceful

A. purpurea: Tall and very thick trunk (sometimes), sometimes bulging crown shaft, prominent silver on the backs of the leaves, large seeds

A. tuckeri: Medium height, shorter leaves, smaller trunk, large seeds

And, what about bronze or red colored new leaves. A. maxima is known for this, but it also occurs sporadically with the other species.

So now let's look at a few more pictues of the other species.

Here's Archontophoenix maxima at the Nursery in a 15g container, height about 7 or 8 feet:

Here's the crown of the plant above:

Archontophoenix continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Archontophoenix continued:

Below is the underside of Archontophoenix maxima showing silver but no ramenta:

And here's the top of the leaf.

And below are some fruiting A. maxima from the PACSOA website:

And finally we get to our last species, Archontophoenix alexandrae. We have lots of these for sale at the nursery. I'm not going to show you potted plants as they are similar to some of the others above. Rather, you'll see some established mature plants and the variety beatricae.

Archontophoenix alexandrae, not mature yet, in a domestic garden in So Cal:

Archontophoenix continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Archontophoenix continued:

A PACSOA shot showing the blossom of smaller seeds:

A Wikipedia picture of the fruit:

And here's a peculiar photo of adventitious roots coming out of the bottom four feet of a trunk of A. alexandrae. Why it does this is a whole other topic:

And a final picture of A. alexandrae from PACSOA showing a stand of mature trees. Nice, hub?:

One final Archontophoenix continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Archontophoenix continued:

I've mentioned multiple times above about Archontophoenix "beatricae", which you now know is a type of alexandrae. It got it's name because the base of the trunk appeared more bulbous and swollen and there were "stepoffs" at the trunk rings. This may be just cultural. Below is a picture of the base of Archontophoenix alexandrae beatricae showing the bulge. Many would call this a "cultivar", certainly not a species:

This concludes my comments on that huge topic of Archontophoenix. Whew! I have a few more cool things I'll show you tomorrow. Thanks for enduring this long subject.

Phil

[Jeff Searle]

Phil,

Even I can't help but to check in every day or so. Your information that your giving is great and I can't help but think of all the many,many hours of your time it's taken to do this. Thanks !

Jeff

[Brad-Tampa]

Phil,

Wow, thanks again. You welcome to visit again anytime your in Florida.

I just posted a picture of that Phoenix in the rec X canary thread in "Discussing palms", it seemed to fit there.

That glaucous Seranoa is huge also, I keep having to cut off stems to keep it off the cycads. The story goes that Dad dug it up across the street from Dent Smith"s house before that lot was developed. The "bluest" ones grow along the East coast beach strand, especially around Jupiter and Jonathon Dickenson State Park.

What's the next subject?

(Yes Jeff, it is a lot of work but just think of how valuable it is to document your experiences and what a great forum this provides for it. I wished I had payed closer attention along the way.)

Brad

[Phil]

Group,

Good morning.

Brad,

I did go to your post. Thank you. I'm sure the "cut off trunk" was the one I remember seeing. Darn those power lines!

Now on to a few more "show and tell" species. For many years, QUAMAN 58 (member of this discussion group) has been a customer at our Nursery. This past weekend he visited the nursery and brought a couple of his friends. One of the friends wanted a signature palm for an important location in the garden. This friend's weather is very hot in the summer, fairly cold in the winter (perhaps down to 25 degrees) and the plant needs to take full sun. He is inland from the coast. But, he wanted something different. He was particularly charmed before visiting with Parajubaea.

Parajubaea is a South American genus. There are three or four species within this genus. All are large palms with prominent trunks and big crowns. Parajubea have had various common names, one even being the "South American Coconut". (people love common names with the word "coconut" in them) All species come from high elevation and characteristically have some degree of cold tolerance. It has been documented that Parajubaea will survive in the San Francisco Bay area. Of course there is a limit. A member of this discussion group lost a large number of Parajubaea torallyii being field grown during the winter of 07. He got down to about 18 degrees and this was just too much for them. However, some of his did survive and are once again thriving.

There has always been this mystique about Parajubaea. This goes back decades. I think it stemmed from the fact that seeds were difficult to obtain and very expensive. And, once you got seeds, they were difficult to germinate. Anecdote after anecdote emerged about successful means of germinating Parajubaea. This included everything from escarification, "picking out the eye", pre-germination refrigeration, or simply "throwing them into the garden and praying". Rob Orth from the Thousand Oaks area of CA found that he got the best germination when the nights were cold and the days were warm. He thinks that it's this wide temperature swing that helps with germination. Parajubaea seeds are very large and of a peculiar shape. Germinating them is fun.

Getting back to Quaman 58's friend, he found a Paranjubaea torallyii that we had in a 24 inch box. He decided this was the plant for him. But, in discussing this genus, I want to start with another species other than torallyii. This is because my first experience with Parajubaea was with P. coccoides. This was the first one that became available. Ed Moore in Pacific Beach (San Diego), CA had a large on and this has been seen by many. Below is an interesting shot from a commercial habitat in (I think) Equador. (Efloras.org website). You can see that P. coccoides is a tall palm with a good sized trunk.

Parajubaea coccoides

Below is a picture of a fair sized Parajubaea c. in Southern California

You will note first that the leaves on the above plants (and below) are green. They are not silver-green, just green. This is one of the main differences I find in telling them apart, especially in containers at a younger age. I think the coccoides is much more green than the others. Also note that P. coccoides does get a woody trunk. But, at the top of a big tree and directly below the crown, the trunk is quite fibrous. On the top picture also note that the crown is sort of like Roystonea oleracae in that it is hemispherical; it occupies the upper half of the circle of the crown except for a few old and dying leaves hanging down.

Here's a picture of Roystonea oleracea so that you can see what I mean:

Below is another So Cal shot of a small P. coccoides in a garden. Note how fibrous the trunk is:

Parajubaea continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Parajubaea continued:

Above I said that there are "three or four" species of Parajubaea. Why did I say this? This is because the taxonomists formally recognize two Parajubaea: coccoides and torallyii. About ten years ago different seeds and descriptions appeared on the commercial market. These included Parajubaea sunkha and microcarpa. These might indeed be varieties of torallyii. In nurseries, they have been refered to as Parajubaea torallyii variety "sunkha" or variety "microcarpa". They are closest to torallyii. I'll leave species status up to the taxonomists.

That being said, let's look at Parajubaea torallyii. It comes from Bolivia, high elevation, and has been called the "Bolivian Mountain Coconut". It comes from elevations up to over 7000 feet, definitely competing with Ceroxylon for the "highest altitude growing palm". Seeds are edible by report. In fact, when you visit habitats for palms, a good place to buy seeds (if they are edible) is in the local outdoor markets where they are being sold as food.

Parajubaea torallyii (PACSOA)

Once again you see a hemispherical crown and a tall, strong trunk. P. torallyii is probably more cold tolerant than coccoides, like good drainage and ample water. The seeds are larger than those of coccoides. Some drought is tolerated.

Here's another PACSOA photo of P. torallyii showing it's thick trunk. If you like Jubaea, you'll like this species:

But what about the plant that Quaman 58's friend bought. Let's take a look. Below is Quaman 58 himself showing off the selection:

And below is a closeup of that fibrous trunk we talked about above. This plant was about 7 or 8 feet tall with a nice fat base in a 24 inch container. BTW, for those who always want prices of anything pictured, it sold for $360, which is not a bad price for 10 years work. It's basal diameter is an estimated eight inches:

Parajubaea continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Parajubaea continued:

OK, I mentioned the silver color on the back of the torallyii leaflets and that this helps recognizing this species. When crowns of leaves are fifty feet in the air, it's hard to tell color. Dead fallen leaves don't help. So, we nurserymen look at what's in front of us. And, P. torallyii is more of a silver color than coccoides. Not a believer? Look below at the leaf of Parajubaea torallyii from the purchased plant shown previously. You'll note that the back of the leaves are very silver. Even the front of the leaves is a more silver-green compared to the P. coccoides.

Parajubaea torallyii leaf showing silver color:

Here's another look while separating the leaflets of P. torallyii. Once again, note the color:

Another comment on purchasing plants, whether a Parajubaea or not. If you want to know if a plant was recently "stepped up" or repotted, look at the drainage holes at the bottom of the container for roots. With a box, flip it over a bit and inspect. If you see them roots at the bottom, that plant's been in the container for a while. This would be a good thing. The picture below shows how well-rooted this P. torallyii was. Hundreds of roots are seen coming out the bottom of the box:

Parajubaea torallyii in a park planting (PACSOA):

I hope now that you have a little more reality on the Parajubaeas, their appearance and their culture. And, perhaps you can tell how to ID a potted Parajubaea torallyii from coccoides. Right now I don't have any pictures of a smaller coccoides for comparison, but if time permits I will take a few shots today at the nursery.

Thanks for reading.

Phil