Huge Palm, Cycad & Tropical Plant Sale

[BS Man about Palms]

I think I watered that Parajubea a few times. Glad to see it will be planted... then STAND BACK!

[Shon]

You don't water.You don't even have a blue JM shirt do you?

[BS Man about Palms]

You don't water.You don't even have a blue JM shirt do you?

I'm talking about that palms life prior to arriving at Phils...

[Phil]

Parajubaea continued:

Enthusiasts, good morning.

Jeff, you are right that this thread is taking a lot of my time. I get up quite early in the AM and that's when I do my emails, postings, etc. If it were not for the feedback, I would have stopped doing it a long time ago. One of the feedback postings that impressed me the most was a simple one from one of our readers. He said something to the effect that "I can see pictures of mature trees but enjoy this thread beause it helps me recognize species when they are in containers". I started thinking that he was right. Nowhere in texts or on the Net can you see juvenile, smaller plants. At this site, you can peacemeal it, especially on the Dypsis. But, for general knowledge, it's quite difficult to cull out this information. It was because of this post that I was motivated to continue. So, to that Member, I thank you. Those enthusiasts who have vast experience and lots of trips to nurseries pick this up over time. For for the average person, it's a difficult task to master.

To Shon and Bill, you indeed have palm blood. I think I'm going to have to make up some special color of TShirts for the two of you.

Now, back to Parajubaeas. I talked yesterday about telling the difference between Parajubaea coccoides and torallyii. I'm going to show pictures of the two below and talk about differences. First, let's look at a 15g Parajubaea coccoides. It is outdoors, about five to six feet tall.

Parajubaea coccoides, 15g. Note how the leaves are held in a more horrizontal or floppy position. Also, note how the leaflets are more dependent or hanging downwards compared to the torallyii:

Here's a closeup of the P. coccoides leaf. Once again you see the dependent droopy leaflets. Also, look at the backside of the leaflets on the far side. You don't see much silver do you?

Now, for comparison let's look at a comparable sized 15g Parajubaea torallyii. Note that the leaves at this stage are more upright and the leaflets don't droop as much. This particular plant doesn't have quite the age as the coccoides, but it's old enough to show the differences:

Below is a closeup of the leaf of the above P. torallyii. The leaflets are not drooping ant the leaves themselves are more upright:

Certainly there are variations plant to plant, but in general I think these observations are valid.

Parajubaea continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Parajubaea continued:

What about the base of the plants? Remember, Parajubaeas are quite fibrous. With time they develope woody clean trunks. But, below the crown, there is always a lot of attached fibers. The same is true with the base of containerized plants.

Here's the base of the Parajubaea coccoides:

And below is the base of the 15g Parajubaea torallyii:

As you can see, although the latter plant is not as big as the former, so looking at the base doesn't help at all. (on some species of palms it definitely helps as you'll find in a future post). What about the silver color of the leaflets? I'll show again the color of the boxed torallyii from yesterday. Note the prominent silver color on the back of the leaves:

Parajubea torallyii, boxed, back of leaf:

Let's compare this color again on the two species. Below is a picture of the back of the leaf of the Parajubea coccoides above. You will note there is a little bit of silver, but not nearly as prominent as on the torallyii:

Parajubaea coccoides, back of leaf:

Parajubaea continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Parajubaea continued:

Here's another shot of the back of the same leaf showing basically green with a hint of silver:

Next we'll reexamine the P. torallyii for the silver color on the back of the leaves. It's much more prominent as shown.

In summary:

Parajubaea coccoides in a container: More dependent leaves, leaflets that droop more, fibrous base and minimal silver on the back of the leaves.

Parajubaea torallyii: More upright leaves, less drooping of the leaflets, prominent silver on the backs of the leaflets and fibrous base. Also, I might add, it's faster growing.

Now, what about those other two "species". I mentioned some consider them species and others consider them a variety of torallyii. Parajubaea sunkha is from the Andes mountains in Bolivia. It grows at very high elevation. Some feel this is the most cold hardy of all the Parajubaeas. It has a thinner trunk and only gets to about 25 feet. It is similar in crown appearance to coccoides. It was first described a little over ten years ago. Below is a picture of Parajubaea sunkha by Gaston Torres (PACSOA) who has visited PalmTalk in the past.

Parajubaea sunkha:

We don't have any large specimens at the nursery, but here's a few pictues of one in a small citrus pot:

Parajubaea sunkha, cit pot:

Parajubaea continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Parajubaea continued:

Here's a closer look at the leaf of P. sunkha:

I don't want to post a photo of the base as it's fibrous like the previous two species. In the previous photo you can see this. The backs of the leaves are showing a bit of silver at this stage. The crowns of P. sunkha when mature carry a large number of leaves and appear very green. As mentioned previously, this may in fact be a true species, but there's controversy over this point. But, an interesting thing about this species is that it has the smallest of all the Parajubaea seeds. Below is a picture of the seed found in the pot of the above nursery plant. Note how small it is compared to other Pajajubaea:

I wish I had photos of the seeds of all species. I've handled them dozens of times and never taken pictures. I invite anyone who has such photos to post them.

Now, what about the "fourth" Parajubaea. Parajubaea microcarpa is probably just a variety of Parajubaea torallyii. It has smaller seeds that the torallyii and it's mature size is smaller than torallyii. Otherwise, it's very similar in all manners. At present, it's appropriate to call this plant "Parajubaea torallyii variety microcarpa". I won't show pictures as it's so similar to torallyii.

This wraps up my discussion of Parajubaea. I invite others to make comments about their plants or experience. Or, post pictures ofplants or seeds. Shon, you mentioned you put in a little one and it's much larger now. Such feedback is wanted. I'm partial to P. torallyii ( tor tor or microcarpa) because it's such a good grower.

As always, thanks for reading.

Phil

[freakypalmguy]

Here is a couple Parajubea torallyi seeds from my plants. They are a very unusual looking seed. The windows almost look like the face of a monkey.

[Peter]

As per Phil's invitation to post, here are Gary Levine's P. sunkha's:

And here is a Parajubaea at Rob Orth's. He planted it as P. torallyii over 10 years ago:

[Phil]

Good morning and thanks for the feedback. Matt, indeed Parajubaea seeds are wierd looking. I sometimes thnk of them as little "winged fighters from Star Wars". It would have been very cool to have a picture of all of these seeds, side by side, to show the differences. But who'd of thought I'd be talking about this now. And Peter, thanks for the photos from Gary's (Escondido area, hot and dry) and Rob (expert with Parajubaea and up near Thousand Oaks). Sort of shows how they do in two different localities.

I thought this morning we'd start a little tour of the Palms of Lord Howe Island. Some might think that this subject is remedial, but remember there's always a bit more to learn.

Lord Howe Island is this small island to the east of Australia. Will talk about four palms from this island and make mention of another palm from there that no one's ever been able to figure out. Below is a map showing you the locality of L.H.I. (LHIinfo webstie)

It's a tiny island of only about 12 KM square. I think Australians sort of consider palms from this island as being "Australian palms", but they only come from this tiny little independent island. They are native to nowhere else. Below is a picture by Roger Scott of the island showing its two main mountains. The existence of mountains has a lot to do with the palms.

Here's another aerial shot of L.H.I. showing the two main mountains (PlanBookTravel)

(

On this island there are four species of palms. And each has it's own habitat there. The most common of the palms from LHI is Howea forsteriana, the species name after an Australian political figure. This species grows at the lowest coastal elevations of the island. It is single trunk, monoecious (one plant can make seeds), and has a lush head of dark green leaves.

Below is a picture of various Howea forsteriana at the visitor park at Mission Bay in San Diego. Some are planted as multiples. Of note, probably because of little water, these trunks are a bit thin. Ample culture gives thicker, more sturdy trunks:

Howea continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Howea continued:

Below is a picture of several in a domestic planting where they get more nutrition and water. Note how the trunks are thicker and they are once again in full coastal sun:

Below is a picture showing the crown of a large specimen in the San Diego area:

In habitat and in some very old domestic plantings, plants can get up to fifty or sixty feet tall. This surprises many who think it is a mid-canopy plant. This is true because most don't live long enough to see the really tall ones they plant. There's a very old domestic planting in Monticito (Santa Barbara) that the Society has toured and theirs are about 50 feet tall.

The picture below from habitat (PlantaPalm) shows the eventual height of H. forsteriana:

Granted, the picture above makes them look a little ratty, but it is shown to demonstrate attained height. Here's a prettier shot from habitat (PACSOA):

Howea continued:

Phli

[Phil]

Howea continued:

In keeping with the theme of this thread, below is a typical 15g H. forsteriana. We offer all sizes, but the 15g will demonstrate a few things.

In the picture above note the dark green color, the somewhat droopy leaflets (point down) and the gently arching leaves. The latter gentle arch will be compared with the much more prominent arch of Howea belmoreana later.

Here's a few pictures up close of the leaves:

On this photo closeup note the gentle recurve of the leaf

And for completeness sake, here's a photo of the base of the tree. You'll note that it's fibrous and has no crown shaft. This helps differentiate it from Hedyscepe, which you'll see later. Also note how the petiole is quite clean, shiny and green all the way to where it attaches to a fibrous trunk. This helps ID it as a Howea.

Howea continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Howea continued:

Now lets compare H. forsteriana to the other species of this genus: Howea belmoreana. Howea belmoreana is known as the Belmore Palm, the Curley Palm but also sometimes as the curving Kentia Palm and Sentry Palm (although the latter two usually refer to forsteriana). It is also a single trunk species and monoecious. However, there are some unique things which distinguish it from the H. forsteriana.

First, in habitat it grows at a bit higher elevation in the lower mountainous or hilly areas. Secondly, it is not as tall as the forsteriana, typically about 30 feet maximum. The leaves are a bit sorter than forsteriana. Most importantly, the leaves have two distinguishing characteristic. Overall, the leaf is quite curved. The petiole and the leave sharply curve toward the ground. This is much more prominent than the gentle curve of the forsteriana. There is also a "V Shape to the leaf when looking from the end. Leaflets leave the stem at an approximate 45 degrees upward. Some refer to this as "keeled" compared with the flatter forsteriana that come off more or less horizontally. Of note this V shape is most apparent with the newer or younger leaves on large trees.

Howea belmoreana in habitat showing how the leaves form the "V shape" in cross section and how the overall leaf curves toward the ground (PACSOA):

This is sort of a scrappy plant, but really shows it as well:

Below is a domestically grown H. belmoreana showing these same characteristics:

Howea continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Howea continued:

Remember that "V" shape? Compare that to this forsteriana with a much flatter leaf:

Below is a picture of a 15g Howea belmoreana at the Nursery:

Here's a bit younger tree:

Below is a picture of the leaf showing the recurve downward even at this stage.

Enough for today. Tomorrow I'll make a few comments about hybrids, culture and a few other interesting facts about Howea that some people might not know.

Take care,

Phil

[quaman58]

Great pictures and explanations Phil. The LHI species are some of my favorites. How this little spit of land developed 4 diverse, beautifully different species is beyond my comprehension. Thanks again!

[Phil]

Brett,

I totally agree. And, most grow so well for us in So Cal. I really think the photo below could almost fake people out a little for being "coconuts".

Phil

[Phil]

Howea continued:

Good morning.

I think now you know how to distinguish the two species of Howea. Previously I mentioned hybrids, and this can occur. There have been seeds from habitat whose offspring appear to be hybrids. There are also domestic plants that physically appear to be hybrids. But, mention here is deserved about one particular plant that may or may not be some kind of Howea hybrid. Below is an exerpt from my website that I wrote about 20 years ago:

“The upright Howea”

Palm enthusiasts in Southern California remember an unusual plant distributed in the early 1980’s in the San Diego area by Rudy Lasaga, a veteran IPS member and nurseryman. Rudy had obtained seedlings directly from Lord Howe Island. At the time Rudy felt that they might be Lepidorrhachis. This they were not. However, they were not anything usual. They looked like a very upright Howea with all the leaves jammed together as if someone had tied them together with string. They also preferred full sun. Although not a thing of beauty, they were indeed different. To this date no one is sure exactly what these plants are. There are mature specimens in gardens presently. Conjecture would lead one to think they were some type of hybrid. They are not what one would anticipate morphologically from a H. forsteriana x H. belmoreana. As Rudy got them from Lord Howe Island, could there be an undescribed inter-generic hybrid?

Since this batch of plants from Rudy, we have not seen it again. The largest one I know of is in a private garden in Santa Barbara. I do not know if it survived the recent fire there. I have one in my garden but it is in a location where it is hard to photograph. It is characterized by stiff, upright leaves that are "crammed together" as a crown. Some like it; some think it is grotesque. You decide. I am copying a few pictures below of this mystery plant. Photos by Matt Bradford:

I often get inquiries about Howea seeds and how to germinate them. Let's look at a few pictures of Howea blossoms and seeds:

Howea blossoms emerging:

Here's a picture showing young immature green seeds:

Howea continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Howea continued:

Below is a PACSOA picture of green seeds hanging from the crown of a Howea belmoreana.

And below are long clusters of still green seeds. Photo from South Seas Palm Company:

OK, you've seen a lot of pictures of green Howea seed. How do you know when to pick them for germination? This is a topic that somehow many people don't understand. I've heard countless stories from people who tell me the seeds of their mature Howeas were stolen and "they weren't even ripe!" Or of collectors who obtain seeds from a tree and call me about what to do next. They then tell me they are a beautiful green color.

Mother nature designed an idiot-proof way for palm enthusiast to collect palm seeds that are ready. This rule is: They change colors. It is rare indeed than any green palm seeds are ready for harvesting. The corollary to this rule is they are ready when they drop to the ground. This is nature's way of saying "we're ready". For Howea the color progression is: green to yellow to light red to deep red. Mixed in with this can be some hints of brown or sunburn. You'll hear all sorts of stories about the best color to pick. I have never for a moment believed that 'green seeds" are better for germination. Some profess this. My suggestion is just to follow Mother Natures cue and get the deep red ones. See below with this picture from Dave's Garden. Of note, sometimes on the same tree you can see the whole spectrum of seed development with green, yellow on up to deep red seeds.

How does one germinate these seeds? As this is a whole other topic, I don't want to say too much here. But, keep it simple. They do not need bottom heat in So Cal to germinate. In fact, sometimes bottom heat results in a lower germination rate. I've found that if I just throw them in the garden, cover them with some shavings, and make sure they get enough sprinkler water that I get great germination. About six to twelve months later there they are, coming up in a flock for easy removal.

I want to talk about utilizing the "Kentia Palm" as a houseplant. It is indeed a superior interior plant. The basic rules of indoor culture still apply with air circulation, adequate light and low salinity water being keys. Howea have a very elegant, formal appearance when grown properly. They do need some room as the leaves spread laterally to some extent. In pots their growth is retarded but it is still possible to get a 20 foot tall palm that is containerized. Growers will often use two, three or more plants in the container. These "mulit's" as they are called give a fuller but more slowly growing clump. The same is true outdoors. Below is a picture from the Floridata website of containerized Howea forsteriana:

Howea continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Howea continued:

In fact, Howea are so popular as an interior plant that artificial tree companies produce very real looking artificial Howea from silk. The one below is silk and photo by Edirector.co.uk:

Regarding culture and cold tolerance, after our 2007 winter it appears that Howea belmoreana might be somewhat more cold tolerant than Howea forsteriana. Remember native locality? The belmoreana naturally grows at a bit higher altitude on those two mountains. So this seems to make sense. My own experience has shown that Howea forsteriana shows leaf burn at about 25 degrees. 28 degrees doesn't seem to hurt it. During 2007 we saw temp's down to 25 degrees. The damaged leaves showed nothing for several days. Then a light brown color was apparent and that led to full blown leaf necrosis by the following week. It took about a years worth of growth before damaged plants looked good again, but we lost none outdoors at 25 degrees.

Another point about Howea culture is that they can be successfuly dug and moved. I am not in the business of craning out large Howeas, but it's done all the time. One must get adequate root balls and carefully protect the crown when transporting. If a tree is allowed to "whip" (rapidly fall with an abrupt stop while craning), this can result in an actual fracture inside the upper stem in the crown. Such damaged trees (crown fracture) show a very rapid demise with total crown failure within a few days. This is the only thing that causes total death of the tree this quickly.

Howea sunlight requirements depend on where you live. In coastal Southern California Howea forsteriana tolerate full sun. But, as you move inland, more protection is needed. But, there are a few points I'd like to make about sunlight and Howeas. There is no question that Howea grown in filtered light or shade have a deeper green color. Those grown in sun have more of a "limey" green. Below is a plant grown in filtered light. Check out the green color:

Compare the color above to plants in habitat in L.H.I. Note that the color is more lime-green. (Pacsoa photo):

There's no question that I could take this thread for days more just on Howea and talk about interesting Howea trivia. But, before ending on Howea, I have to mention one important disease syndrom that many have heard of. This is the "Leaning Howea Disease". This happens with larger trees in the ground. The entire crown seems to lean to one side. The cause of this syndrom is unknown, but boron deficiency has been speculated. Others think it's some kind of infection. It appears sporadically, but can affect more than one tree in the same garden. However, you can have a normal tree with a diseased tree right next to it. Below is a picture of a diseased plant by Epicure3:

Howea continued, probably tomorrow:

Phil

[BS Man about Palms]

Hi Phil-

Love this LHI stuff! Anyway, heres a pic of what I think may be a "hybrid" of the Howea's, but it doesn't seem to look like the Rudy palms. Its from P. Mountain and they had a bunch. First it was said they were Hedy's-not so. Then it was determined they were H. belmores, not likely either. Then as I had it near the others, I noticed it was about halfway in between, The leaves seem upright and flat. When you see it in person, its more obvious. What do you think?

[BS Man about Palms]

Compare it to first the belmore and then the "group" planting with the larger forsteriana in the background. (My hybrid? in front of the forsteriana to the left.)

[Phil]

Bill,

I really don't think the plant you photo'd is the "upright Howea". As I recall, they look like a crown that's been tied up with twine, all bunched together. Your's flops a bit to the side.

Regarding the photo attempt (with credit reference given above) from Dave's Garden site, sorry. I guess it's "punishable by death" that applies to their site. When I picked up on this, I immediately deleted another of Geoff Stein's photos about burn on a Howea but didn't have enough time to delete the second photo before it kicked in. My apologies. I'll shoot a picture from my garden this AM to show color on Howea seeds and post it later.

I'd like to comment on treatment of Leaning Howea Disease. There have been a few threads at PalmTalk about it. I am not aware of any study on this malady. I will post now previous comments:

"I do want to comment a bit on treatment for Leaning Howea disease. Here's From what I've heard, do the following:

1. Cut off most of the crown to reduce the weight. Perhaps leave a few leaves.

2. Water the heck out of it (ground water).

3. Apply a fungicide on a regular basis to the crown; Daconil has been used."

And here's a link to Boron Deficiency by Tim Broschat. Perhaps it's due to lack of Boron. It's also seen with other species of palms:

Boron Deficiency

Phil

Re Boron, I personally have no experience or data.

[Phil]

Howea continued:

The more I think about it, the more I have to tell you about. Customers often like Howea because of the "thin green trunk". I mentioned above how good culture makes the trunk thicker. But, what about the color of the trunk? First, let me mentioned that old leaves bases have to be removed carefully. If you pull hard, you can tear tissue from the trunk and forever scar it. Later it's unsightly. So, if they come off with a gentle tug, it's ok. Always start at the bottom when removing old leaf bases.

When you remove a leaf base, often you see a tan color or perhaps a yellow. I've even seen red and orange. This turns with time to green. So, directly below the crown, the trunk is more green. With time, the trunk ages and brown tissue is formed. If a Howea is in deep shade, the green color lasts a lot longer. If in sun, it disappears more quickly.

Look at the photo below and you'll note green trunk right below the crown and brown woody trunk further towards the ground:

You'll see this on many species. Here's a closer shot showing the same thing:

And, on the picture below in more shade, the entire trunk is green.

And below is a sun exposed, weathered trunk:

So, when people say they like the Kentia Palm because of the thin green trunk, that might not be what they get.

Howea continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Howea continued:

Because of the lost photo above, I went out into the garden. I have some seeds that are green and a few just turning color. If I get time, I'll stop by Roosty's for a better shot of red seed. See the photos below which show green and then some seeds turning colors:

Phil

[Palmy]

Phil you wouldnt happen to have the seedlings from this palm. I hear its hard to get a hold of, and your the best place to come...

[Phil]

Palmy,

As you probably already know, the only one supplying that palm is Mr. Toolital Toowako from the Western African country of Camerama. None of us have heard from him lately on PalmTalk, but he did email me that he will return soon will exciting new species. Knowing the recent snow you've had up in Eugene, Oregon, this species might suit you well. Just be patient. I am sure he will return one day.

And for the rest of you, I was disappointed I couldn't get my hands on some good shots of Howea forsteriana seeds this morning. So I went to Roostysado's yard (occasional participant on the Board) and shot a few more pictures. He is "Mr. Howea". Below is a picture of multiple fruit clusters hanging down with all stages of development. You'll note the green, tan-yellow and red fruit. The red are the most ripe. Also note the dark scaly color on many. This browning discoloration is from aging of the seeds and is seen regularly:

Here's another shot from his yard showing how abundantly a single tree can produce fruit. As it can take two years for seeds to develope and rippen, one can see all stages of ripening. And, Howea tend to put out a lot of blossoms close together, often quite close together at one point on the trunk (see young flowers above); thus you can get a bumper crop of seeds all at one level. It's not unusual to see ten blossoms full of ripening seeds on a single tree. The picture below shows at least seven or eight:

And while I was there I shot a few trunk pictures. Remember that "thin green trunk" that people look for. Below is a shaded out Howea f. showing the perfect example of this:

But if they wanted something unique, they could have had this:

In the morning we're going to look at one of my favorites: Hedyscepe. Stay tuned and thanks for viewing and commenting..

Phil

[gsn]

Phil,

Are there any known hybrids of H belmoreana crossed with H forsteriana?

I guess what I am asking has anyone done the cross on purpose,to produce a hybrid of the two?

thanks

[Charles Wychgel]

I wish I had photos of the seeds of all species. I've handled them dozens of times and never taken pictures. I invite anyone who has such photos to post them.

A bit late but here is a picture of the three P.sunkha,P.torallyi,P.cocoides, from left to right.

Thanks for posting this thread Phil, this sort of info is so helpful not only for beginners but for everyone interested in growing palms.

Please do continue even if you do not get so many responses, masses of lurkers in the background here.

Edit: imo this thread should be moved out of the For Sale section

[Phil]

Good Morning.

First, responding to those above. Scott, I don't know of anyone who's actively tried to produce hybrids from the two. I have gotten seeds before and the offspring from these seeds seem to be "in-betweeners". If you look around in So Cal at all the Howeas you will see plants that look like forsteriana but have some of the characteristics of both species. I don't see why there's not domestic hybridization in gardens. Consider Rhopalostylis. When one has baueri and sapida side by side and both flower, hybrids are quirte common. I think it would be the same with Howea. If we had an expert contribute here with field experience on LHI, I think it would be helpful.

Charles, thanks for the photo of the Parajubaea seed. They are the wierdest of seeds and really fun to look at and hold. The torallyii are especially fun.

Now on to the next subject: Hedyscepe.

Hedyscepe is a monotypic genus. This means that there is only one species to the genus, similar to Jubaeopsis caffra and Polyandrococos caudescens. Lord Howe Island is quite fortunate to boast that it has four stellar species. This is one of them. Remember that LHI has two good sized mountains. In the lowest elevations were Howea forsteriana. A bit higher in elevation are Howea belmoreana. Hedyscepe is further yet up the hills at 1000 to 2500 feet and gets ample rain and moisture there. If one knows about montane rain forests, the higher in elevation one goes, typically the shorter the plants become. Such is the case with LHI. (Note: I'm not saying that LHI contains per se classic m. rain forest, but mentioning this as a way to remember characteristics of the species there) H. forsteriana are lower elevation and the tallest. Palms shorten in stature as we go up culminating in the near dwarf Lepidorrhachis at the higher elevations.

And, as we go to higher elevation an important change occurs with the palms. Hedyscepe is crown shafted, unlike it's cousin below the Howea. It is single trunk, has a gorgeous brown to silver colored trunk which is typically 20 to 30 feet at maturity. The crown shaft bulges a bit. But, it's the color of the trunk and crown shaft that give this species its beauty; silver with hints of blue and green. The crown shows a half circle of slightly arching leaves that are shorter than Howea, typically 8 to 10 feet. The leaves are keeled (like belmoreana), stiff, and arching. The seeds are quite large and red when mature. Mature trees fruit quite easily in the So Cal area. In habitat trees are often on the sides of cliffs or mountains with the ocean far below.

Below is a picture to show the color and beauty of the crown shaft and the trunk:

And here's our first glance at the crown of a domestically grown plant:

It is quite easy to fall in love with that trunk. Remember the "thin green trunk" explanation; nothing lasts forever. Well, sunlight and age give the Hedyscepe a brown woody trunk in time. This can be protected if the plant is in the shade. But, with exposure, it becomes brown like Howea. The picture below is a beautiful one from PACSOA showing many things about the species: The crown is stiff with keeled leaves and the crown shaft bules. The overall size of the crown is much smaller than Howea. The crown shaft remains silver but the exposed trunk is brown wood. Also, these trees are at higher elevation with the ocean evident below.

Hedyscepe canteburyana in habitat, Lord Howe Island (PACSOA)

The picture below is a domestically grown juvenile plant. Even at this stage (or in a container with some age), this species shows it's beautiful color:

Hedyscepe continued:

Phil

[palmislandRandy]

Still lurkin thanks!

[Phil]

Hedyscepe continued:

I'll say more about the characteristics of this species and culture below, but now let's talk about germination and containerized plants. The seeds of Heyscepe are large (2 inches), very red when mature and supple. Various people in my area have had large, fruiting trees. This group includes Jim Wright, Bob Dejung, Dr. Brown, and maybe even Dean's tree is fruiting by now. Here's a picture of a Hedyscepe blossom with green seeds in So Cal:

And here is a post by Pivi (this group) of Bob Dejung's (Pogobob) Hedyscpe with more maturity and color:

The development of seeds is quite slow and may take 2 years or more from flower to mature fruit. Here's a PACSOA picture of a young blossom. So, if you get one of these, in two to three years you might have some to germinate. Germination takes three to six months.

I've germinated perhaps five thousand of these seeds and over the past three decades have sold at least a thousand or two plants. I know this species quite well. It's a favorite of many. Below is a 15g plant that has taken me about 6 years to produce. It's height is six feet.

Hedyscepe continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Hedyscepe continued:

Randy, I know you're out there.

Let's take a closer look at the plant above. Here's a picture of the top (dorsal) side of the leaf. Pay attention to this photo as I will show you below a picture of a Kentiopsis oliviformis leaf which is very similar, and I'll show you how to tell the difference between the two.

Leaf Hedyscepe, dorsal side, 15g plant:

And below are two shots of the underside of the leaf with the second one being a closeup. Note there is no silver color to the underside of the leaflets:

And the closeup of the leaf above:

Below is a picture of the base of this plant. Note how it is a bit bulbous or swollen. Note the color, sort of a bright slightly yellow green. This is characteristic of this species. And, you notice that this bulge is part of the crown shaft. Sometimes with younger plants, you don't really see the crown shaft; it's covered with dead leaf bases, debri or fiber. With the Hedyscepe you do see it and it's typically clean and green. It helps you spot this species in containers.i It doesn't matter whether you have a 2g plant or a 15g, you will see this color and shape in the juvenile plants:

I'm going to reiterate this point and show you a smaller plant in the next post to make it easy for you to recognize this species and tell it from Kentiopsis.

Hedyscepe continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Hedyscepe continued:

Below is the picture of another 15g Hedyscepe, showing the base:

Below is a 5g younger Hedyscepe. It is about 2.5 perhaps 3 feet tall:

Now look at the base of this 5g plant. Once again you see the green, slightly bulbous base:

When purchasing plants, many people confuse a Hedyscepe with Kentiopsis oliviformis. This is so common that just last weekend a customer was picking out a 15g Hedyscepe and brought forward a Kentiopsis. Why is this? It's because they are similar, but a discerning eye will tell them apart.

Below is a 15g Kentiopsis oliviformis about 5 t0 6 feet tall. It has the gentle recurve of the leaf and similar leaflets in shape:

Hedyscepe continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Hedyscepe continued:

Now, let's look at the base of the Kentiopsis oliviformis, 15g plant of comparable height. Note that you don't see the same sort of bulbous green base as you did above with Hedyscepe. Even if I unearthed this one, it's not the same.

Now let's look at the leaves; they are a bit similar. Below is the Hedyscepe, dorsal side:

And below is the leaf of Kentiopsis oliviformis, 15g:

You will note that the color is different. There's a bit of blue cast on the green leaf of Kentiopsis; almost like a little overspray of silver. On the closeup (below) you see it even more.

For the real technical types, the Kentiopsis o. also has a more prominent dorsal vein in the mid-leaf. But, with the above knowledge, you can tell the two species apart when looking at containerized plant.

One might ask: "What about that gorgeous color of the crownshaft and trunk? These plants are green!" Well, I'll address that in my next post. Also, I'll answer the question of what is the best size of plant to buy. And, how to plant and grow them. This species is not without its quirks and risks, so you have to be careful. Presently it's getting late for me for a Saturday, and I'll probably do this tomorrow. At that time I'm going to also show you Lepidorrhachis (which we now are offering) and answer the final questions about Hedyscepe. So, tune back in tomorrow.

Hedyscepe continued:

Phil

[quaman58]

Phil,

There is something about the form of Hedyscepe that makes it as good as a palm can get, IMO. Of the hundreds of species I'm farmiliar with, I can't think of a more beautiful palm. If I had space, I'd probably try a grove of 40-50 of them.

Bret

[Phil]

Hedyscepe continued:

Brett, you are right. Hedyscepe are indeed gorgeous and a great addition to any garden where they can grow. I'd love to see a grove of 40 or 50 plants.

Scott, I talked to BSManAboutPalms yesterday and he said he heard that belmoreana and forsteriana blossom at different times on LHI. Therefore, hybridization is rare on LHI. I'd be interested in feedback from others regarding flowering in their area.

Charles, you made a comment a ways back about moving this thread into the Discussion category. I didn't respond at the time. Well, that's not going to happen. Other nurseries would cry foul and demand its removal from there. I have to be very careful with what I say in the Discussing Palms Worldwide section or some might complain about it as business advertising. So, I try to be fairly neutral there and not promote my nursery. And, I'm OK with that and it's fair. I think most of the other growers share this philosophy as well. They try to not just pound their name into this more visited section of PalmTalk and do backdoor promotion. The only exception would be the big box stores that get a lot of free promotion in the Discussing Palms section all the time with no policing or reprimand (the "Look what I found at...." posts). It is a bit ironic that big corporations that don't contribute are allowed in the main discussion section whereas little nurseries that do contribute to our group would be criticized and moved. So, for this thread, here we remain in this safe but smaller corner of the Site.

Now, more about Hedyscepe. When do you get that fabulous color in the trunk?

The simple answer is with time and age. I typically see it in our 20g/25g plants. Certainly you'll see it in boxed plants. But, not to worry, a 15g in the ground will show it within one to two years. And, the color gets better with age. Below is a grove of Hedyscepe in Balboa Park, San Diego. The plants are not that large but if you look carefully, you'll see the color in the plant to the left.

.

And here's another plant with not much trunk at all that shows it's beauty:

Now let's talk about culture. I had a customer from the San Fernando Valley area visit my nursery about a month ago. He had purchased two 24 inch Hedyscepe from another nursery. They both died soon after planting them at his home. He was bummed. So, what went wrong? It's simple, he planted them in full sun in an area where you can't do that. An inexperienced nurseryman might say "Sure, they take full sun". But, that's incomplete advice. The right answer contains a question in the same breath as the statement and is "They take full sun in some areas. Where do you live?" For those who don't know, San Fernando Valley is far inland and very hot and very dry at times. Hedyscepe just can't take that. Remember, they are way up the mountain and like humidity and water. So, if you are very coastal and not far from the ocean, full sun is possible. If you are inland or very dry, you have to protect them with filtered light.

Here's a juvenile tree in the coastal area in near full sun:

Remember that in habitat, they get tall and eventually full sun. But, they have elevation there with humidity and good rainfall.

Hedyscepe continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Hedyscepe continued:

Can Hedyscepe take true shade? The answer is yes, but I think it really slows them down. Here's a 20 year old plant in dense shade in the San Diego, CA area:

Here's a closeup of the plant above:

Remember that good drainage and plenty of water are important. Regarding cold, it appears they will tolerate a bit more cold than Howea, perhaps to the mid-twenties F. There are trees growing in the San Francisco Bay area of California. PACSOA reports plants growing as far south as Auckland, Australia. Comments on your experience are welcomed.

Now the next promised question: What is the best size to buy? Perhaps this is a "pocketbook" matter, but there's another important point to consider. To my knowledge, I've grown as many Hedyscepe as anyone in Southern California and gotten a lot of feedback from customers. There is this fickle characteristic of Hedyscepe. And, that is Hedyscepe's unpredictablility in growth and to not do what's expected. By that I mean that a plant might just not perform even though you've done everything possible to supply what the species wants. You can plant three in comparable areas: one might thrive and another one just sits there and doesn't grow. Who knows why.

Below is a quote from Dypsis Dean from another thread. I think he reiiterates this point:

"I've told this story before, but it's worth repeating as I have heard the same from other growers.

There seems to be more variability in the "robustness" of this palm. I bought three 5 gal of the same size and planted all in more or less similar conditions. 15 years later --- one died within two years, one hasn't yet even began to put on trunk, and one has about 6 ft of trunk now, and is an incredibly beautiful palm.

So, moral of the story is --- don't buy just one, as you may get one of the slow pokes. Or if unable to do so, check for good root growth. Or if getting seed, get a bunch."

Thus there is this part to the equation you must consider. Most of my customers get two or three but of a more affordable size. This way they are insured to get a nice plant or two out of the purchase. And, I don't think that size purchased alters this phenomena.

This is an interesting observation and I'm sure a few of you out there will have a comment on it.

BTW, Hedyscepe has two common names: Umbrella Palm and Bit Mountain Palm.

Below is a picture of three Hedyscepe together. The photo is from the PlantaPalm Site/PalmCentre.co.UK. I don't know where the photo was taken but note that they appear to be in full sun:

Hedyscepe continued:

Phil

[Phil]

Hedyscepe continued:

Before we end on Hedyscepe, I wanted to link to two nice photographs from the PACOA website. Both are of Hedyscepe. As with all species from Lord Howe Island, note how the plant below is developing the brown woody trunk with full sun exposure. Compare this picture to the one in full shade in the previous post where the trunk is much taller but still holding more of the silver blue color bottom to top. Remember the "thin green trunk" discussion. The same applies to Hedyscepe as well. PACSOA photos:

The photo below shows a Hedyscepe from the Royal Botanical Gardens in Sydney. The interesting thing is te color of the crown shaft. Also, it's got an immature flower showing:

This concludes my comments on Hedyscepe. I hope some of you add to this thread with your comments and experiences. Of particular interest to me is the funny characteristic "that it take's three" and experiencs with sun grown Hedyscepes and inland culture of the plants. Cold comments also welcome.

Thanks for reading. If I get time, I'll start the Lepidorrhachis thread later today.

Phil

[BS Man about Palms]

Hi Phil-

Loving these posts! The last pic in post #357 is at one of Pauleens apartments. I believe it is right across from the Lepidorachis of hers. (Speaking of which, now that I have mine from you, its OK to start the info on them. haha )

Edit: Also, that last picture in Sydney sure doesn't LOOK like a Hedy.

[Phil]

Bill,

Now that you mention it, the building in the background does look like one of her apartments. If so, this picture would be of plants in Ventura, CA (but posted out of Florida) which is about 100 miles north of Los Angeles along the coast. Regarding the photo of the palm in Sydney at the R.B.G., what else would it be? The color is different for sure, but remember when you remove an old leaf base, sometimes different colors are found. I've seen this color before when old leaf bases are removed on Howea forsteriana. It's definitely not a Howea and doesn't appear to be a Lepidorrhachis. Too bad we don't have a photo of the seeds that set on that blossom. If they are big and red, then it's definitely a Hedyscepe. Maybe someone from Sydney can comment on this plant.

Bill, what about cultural remarks and the "you need three" issue?

Phil