Butia paraguayensis (?)

[Alberto]

When I bought this litle butia some years ago I thought it was a B.odorata (palm on left). I bought two other butias (odoratas?)that are more silver and has also less broad leaflets than the first one. Now the moregreener palm on left is flowering and the female flowers are big compared to a B.eriospatha that i know well....I have pollen of Syagrus oleracea and I'm trying to make a Butyagrus,that probably will be a very gracefull hybrid....

[Alberto]

The three butias: (1 B.paraguayensis-left and 2 odoratas???????)

Edited October 21, 2008 by Alberto

[Alberto]

Detail of fronds of the 2 butias:the greener and grayish fronds:

Edited October 21, 2008 by Alberto

[Alberto]

Detail of the female flowers that were pollinated the last days. There is another ,bigger spatha that will be opening the following days and that also will be pollenated with Syagrus oleracea. IS THIS BUTIA PARAGUAYENSIS???

Edited October 21, 2008 by Alberto

[edbrown_III]

Good luck ! keep us posted --- thats what I was talking about on the other B. paraguayensis thread -- these flowers are pretty large -- youtr photograph portrays it well.

Best regards,

Ed

[Alberto]

It's a shame that I didn't get a decent pic of the S.oleracea,thiis slender elegant palm. This is the best one that I found on Internet (PACSOA)

Edited October 21, 2008 by Alberto

[Nigel]

Alberto, those Butias sold to you by Belvedere as odorata are to me something of a mystery. They are NOTHING like the odoratas from the beach, yet flower profusely at an early age.

The form of this plant is otherwise completely different, and I dont think you can safely assume this is the odorata from the beach !

[Alberto]

Yes Nigel,all this 3 plants came from Belvedere. I was asuming all the 3 were odoratas but now I saw the female flower of the greener plant I thought this one could be a B.paraguayensis(?) What can you say about this palm? Is it B.paraguayensis? One of the blue Butias also shows a spatha. I´m curious about the size of the female flowers of this palm....

[Nigel]

Alberto, for me it is a mystery, however, I did think that the Belvedere butia `odoratas` that I received this year reminded me more of yatay than odorata. Butia yatay is documented as growing in Brazil as well, and I find myself wondering if this plant is more closely related. Those Belvedere plants are very big sturdy butias, with more upright petiole bases ,and the flower also reminds of yatay. Thats all I can say but I have serious doubts about them being odorata.

I have not seen them, but Paulo has been to the field where they grow and apparently they are now very big plants with huge trunks ,totally unlike the odoratas of the beach.

Here is one of last years plants from Belvedere.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Nigel

[patrics]

Yes Nigel,all this 3 plants came from Belvedere. I was asuming all the 3 were odoratas but now I saw the female flower of the greener plant I thought this one could be a B.paraguayensis(?) What can you say about this palm? Is it B.paraguayensis? One of the blue Butias also shows a spatha. I´m curious about the size of the female flowers of this palm....

Nigel

Hi long time no talk

could you review YOUR discription of odorata

Thanks , PATRICS

[Nigel]

Patric, simply that it appears to be a miniature form of capitata and that Henderson suggests it is worthy of its own name.

Alberto, solved the mystery today...... visited a nursery with mature Butia capitatas from coastal Rio Grande do Sul. These according to Dr Noblick are supposed to be odoratas also, but appear bigger the further south they get.

Anyway, these Butia capitatas I saw today are the southern odoratas , and it was quite obviously the same plant as the Belvedre odorata, and quite distinct from the northern range in Santa Caterina.

[Alberto]

Nigel.what is the size of the female flowers of B.odorata? Mine are clearly near three times bigger than B. eriospatha flowers....

[Gaston in Argentina]

Wellcome to southamerica Nigel.-

Henderson book describe Butia odoratas for the shore of South of Brazil to Uruguay as the same specie but, near Florianopolis i saw growing in the pure sand of the beaches trunkless or very small trunked Butias (capitata odorata) that were completely different then the ones very tall i saw near in Uruguay, Rocha palmar (in the extreme NortEast of the country) to Montevideo and central Uruguay, far of the natural range of the native uruguayan Butia yatay (country where are marginals just in the extreme west).-

If they were the same specie (B. capitata odorata) the different sizes probably were because the soil in where those florianopolis Butias were growing, pure sand, but some i saw cultivated in homes nearly (probably transplanted) grow of the same trunkless size.-

The true B. odorata should be, after years, a tall trunked palm, so tall as Butia yatay can be, and nothing compared to those Butias growing in florianopolis beaches.-

Nigel, south of Florianopolis isla, in the "morro" just near Siriu beach, in the top i found some few Attalea dubia, and take this pictures showed in PACSOA.-

The second picture show the Siriu town down of the "morro" and the sand dunes possible to watch in any map of the area.- Now easy to found for you.-

There were Bactris sp, Euterpe, Syagrus romanzoffiana in the highland, Butias and some Cocos nucifera near the beach.-

http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/Attalea/dubia04.jpg

[Alberto]

This is a pic of the female flowers (2 branches with the bigger flowers)of my mistery butia ( paraguayensis?odorata?) and for comparison a branch of a B.eriospatha (little flowers). Both flowers are at the same stage (short after pollinated)

My question is: what is the size of B.capitata and B.odorata flowers???? I supose they were the same size as the B.eriospatha flowers...... Are the flowers of B.capitata/odorata this size (BIG)?????

Edited October 23, 2008 by Alberto

[Nigel]

Gaston, I corresponded a lot with Dr Noblick about this subject, he asked my opinion about those southern odoratas because he said they were much bigger, but I could not reply ,because until yesterday I had not seen them. However those `odoratas` from Rio Grande do Sul are double the size of the odoratas here in santa caterina.

All the butia odoratas here in SC are small with thin trunks,even old ones cultivated in good soil and with 5 or 6 metres of trunk still have fine trunks and small leaves, and tiny seeds.

Very differnt, but those palms of Alberto certainly are the same as those bigger RS palms and explains the confusion.

[Alberto]

  Nigel ,your site says B.odorata has tiny flowers......This aren't tiny, you can see.

Butia odoratas from Santa Catarina beach would be so different than that from Rio Grande do Sul????

Edited October 23, 2008 by Alberto

[edbrown_III]

Alberto and Nigel ,

That was my point in the earlier thread the larger flowers are indicative of B. paraguayensis,

Ed

[Nigel]

Picture of flower from butia odorata on the beach here in florianopolis.

As you can see........ tiny.

Seems the Rio Grande de Sul Butias have more in common with yatay.

[kelen]

I planted some seeds from Tubarão SC very different of all butias seeds that I already saw. They are very small and the seedlings are very small to be Butia capitata too. I think that is Butia odorata.

[kelen]

Butia paraguayensis seeds are huge! and they have three "quinas longitudinais", is this?

[kelen]

blue Butia capitata

[Alberto]

Yesterday another spatha opened:

[Alberto]

Close up

[Alberto]

Inflorescence after emasculated (for hybridization)

[PalmGuyWC]

Alberto,

I'm a little confussed. What species do you think the last picture is? Those are HUGE female flowers. Also the photo of the seeds sent by Kelen are strange looking. I've never seen Butias with such thin and enlongated seeds.

Dick

[Alberto]

Alberto,

I'm a little confussed. What species do you think the last picture is? Those are HUGE female flowers. Also the photo of the seeds sent by Kelen are strange looking. I've never seen Butias with such thin and enlongated seeds.

Dick

This latter pics are of the same palm as the pics above. I persoanally think it isn´t B.odorata ...? It´s more similar to B.paraguayensis...... Or it is the variety that grows in Rio Grande do Sul near the shore like Nigel said....??? I really don´t know! The reason of this post was an ID of this palm!!

[Alberto]

Yesterday the more blue greish butia also opened an inflorescence and its clearly different from the other palm. This one shows little purple female flowers. It´s now clear that´´belvedere nursery´´sold two different palms. This one is b.odorata!And the other must be a B.paraguayensis. Both palms are native to Paraná state (odorata at the beach-east and paraguayensis in cerrado vegetation at the west of the state.)

Edited December 8, 2008 by Alberto

[Alberto]

B.odorata infl.

[Alberto]

Uhhh! By the way....nice fruit set on the B.paraguayensis crossed with S. oleracea!

[freakypalmguy]

Excellent Alberto. Nice work on the cross.

Matt

[iamjv]

Alberto that looks like a nice crop of seeds there.... look forward to seeing your babies pictures in the future. Jv