Attalea rostrata...

[Kostas]

Hello!

I was searching for more info on Attalea butyracea and came accross an older(1999) paper that mentioned the proposal of naming the only Costa Rican native Attalea species that was considered to date A. butyracea,A. rostrata...Did this change occured?I ask as i read on Eric's thread about lightning strike killing palms at Leu Gardens that they had a A. rostrata...Is this name valid?If yes,what are its differences from A. butyracea?How tall(trunk) does it get in maturity and how long are the fully mature leaves of this species?

Thank you very much in advance!

[Kostas]

Anyone on that? Eric? Do you maybe have any info on this species?

Thank you very much in advance!

[Eric in Orlando]

Sorry I missed this post the first time;

Kew lists them both as valid species.

A. butryacea is listed as being native from southern Venezuela to W. South America; Bolivia, Ecuador, Colombia, Peru

A. rostrata is listed as being native in Central America; its found in Costa Rica, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaraugua, and Panama.

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for your reply Eric!

Do you know what differentiates this species from the A. butyracea?What is its mature leaf length and how tall a trunk it grows?

Thank you very much in advance!

[Jeff in St Pete]

Sorry I missed this post the first time;

Kew lists them both as valid species.

A. butryacea is listed as being native from southern Venezuela to W. South America; Bolivia, Ecuador, Colombia, Peru

A. rostrata is listed as being native in Central America; its found in Costa Rica, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaraugua, and Panama.

Hi Eric, I've been told that the Attalea around here are A. butyracea. Since they are not listed as native to Costa Rica, maybe these are A. rostrata?

Can you tell from these photos?

[Kostas]

This is a really nice Attalea Jeff!

Thank you very much for the photo! Where was it taken?

Edited November 22, 2008 by Kostas

[Eric in Orlando]

I will look up the differences Mon. when I get bck to work. My references are all there.

[Jeff in St Pete]

Hi Kostas, glad you liked it!

The photo was taken in Manuel Antonio, on the beach.

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for your replys!

Thank you very much Eric for offering to look it up!

Thank you very much for the info Jeff! Beautyfull specieman!!!

[Eric in Orlando]

This is from Glassman's 'A Taxonomic Treatment of the Palm Subtribe Attaleinae (Tribe Cocoeae)'.

This is from 1999 but he still had these 2 species listed as Scheelea.

Scheelea butyracea 15 -18m tall, 49-90 cm in diameter, older trees up to 30m tall and 30-40 cm in diameter, sheathing leaf base 1.5-2 m long, densely brownish lepidote, petiole ver short or absent, leaf rachis 5-9m long, brownish lepidote abaxially; 180-230 pinnae on each side of rachis, those from middle series regularly arranged, 0.9-1.5 m long and 4-6.5 cm wide, with acute asymmetrical tips; expanded part of staminate sterile bract about 1.5 m long (including beak of up to 0.5 m long), penduncular part about 2 m long;l rachis of staminate inflorescence about 1 m long, peduncle about 2 m long, rachillae numerous, 190-230 in number, 16-25 cm long, whitish brown tomentose or lepidote, staminate flowers completely encirciling the rachillae, 13-14 (17) mm long, petals fleshy, about 1 mm thick, sepals 0.5-1 mm long,; expanded part of androgynous sterile bract about 1.5 m long, deeply sulcate, peduncular part about 2 m long, rachis of androgynous inflorescence about 1 m long, peduncle about 2m long, rachillae numerous (up to 215), pistillate portion of each 12-15 cm long, staminate extension 18-23 cm long, 8-11 pistillate flowers per rachilla, each 2.8-3 cm long and 1.5-2 cm in diameter, sepals longer than petals, pistil about 2 cm long, ovary brownish pubescent, style very short, pubescent, stigmas 3 in number, about 1 cm long, staminodial ring about 1 cm high, usually ciliate along margins, staminate flowers (from androgynous inflorescence) 10-12 mm long, petals fleshy 0.5-1 mm thick, sepals about 0.5 mm long, stamens 6, anthers 2-2.5 mm long, filaments about 1.5 mm long, fruit 4-5 cm long and 2.5-3 cm in diameter (including beak of about 1 cm long), yellow at maturity, persistant perianth 1.5-2 cm long, staminoidal ring about 0.5 cm high and 1.5 cm in diameter, epicarp fibrous, 1-1.5 mm thick, mesocarp soft, about 1 mm thick, endocarp hard, 5-7 mm thick, with inconspicuous fiber clusters, seeds usually 1-2 in number

[Eric in Orlando]

Scheelea rostrata- 10-26 m tall, about 50 cm in diameater in Costa Rica, 9m tall and 33-43 cm in diameter in Pamama and 3-6 m or more tall in Guatemala; sheathing leaf base about 30 cm long (incomplete), petiole 0.6-1.2 m long, up to 40 cm wide at base, brownish lepidote adaxially, margins coarsely fibrous, individual fibers up to 25 cm long, leaf rachis up to 9 m long in Costa Rica, up to 6 m long in Panama, and about 3.5m in Guatemalabrownish lepidote or tomentose adaxially; 176-200 pinnae on each side of rachis, those from middle series regularly arranged, 2.5-4 cm apart, 90-140 cm long, and 6-8 cm wide, with acute or acuminate asymmetrical tips, sometimes glaucous on abaxial side, greenish adaxially, cross veinlets frequently prominent; expanded part of staminate sterile bract 1.0- 1.7 m long (including beak of 45-50 cm long) and 30-37 cm wide, deeply sulcate, covered with a brownish indument, penduncular part 65-95 cm long; rachis of staminate inflorescence 57-120 cm long, peduncle 60-95 cm long, numerous rachillae 25-35 cm long, basal 5-10 cm naked, with whitish lepidote or floccose indument; staminate flowers fragrant and pungent when fresh, mostly arranged in pairs, completely surrounding rachilla (some rachillae with a few pistillate flowers at base), 10-18 mm long, petals fleshy, convex outside and flattened or grooved inside, distinctly nerved or wrinkled, 1-1.5 mm thick, sepals 0.5-1.5 mm long, stamens 6 in number, anthers 2-4mm long, filaments 1.5-2 mm long, expanded part of androgynous sterile bract 0.7-1 m long (including beak of up to 54 cm long) and 21-24 cm wide, deeply sulcate, penduncular part 40-55 cm long; rachis of androgynous inflorescence 60-70 cm long, peduncle 55-80 cm long, with numerous rachillae, pistallate portion 10-18 cm long, with 10-20 pistillate flowers per rachilla, staminate extension 15-26 cm long, staminate flowers spitally arranged around rachilla, pistillate flowers 2-2.8 cm long and 1-1.5 cm in diameter, sepals and petals about equal in size or sepals slightly longer, pistil 1.7-2 cm long, ovary usually densely brownish lepidote, style short, stigmas 3 in number, 7-9 mm long, staminoidial ring 4-7 mm high; fruit orange when fresh, 5-6 cm long (including beak of 1 cm long) and 2.5-3 cm in diameter, persistant perianth 1.8-2.5 cm long, staminoidial ring 0.5-0.8 cm high and 1.5-2 cm across, epicarp fibrous, about 1-2 mm thick, dark chestnut brown in color when dried, mesocarp soft, 2-3 mm thick, endocarp hard, 5-8 mm thick, with inner ring of more or less conspicuous fiber clusters, outer ring of fiber clusters less conspicuous, seeds 1 in number, 2-2.6 cm long and 0.8-1 cm in diameter

[Kostas]

Thank you very much Eric for providing me with the descriptions of each species!!! I understand this must have taken you lots of time to type and needed quite some effort with all those numbers and closely packed info so i appreciate it even more!!!

They seem easy to tell apart by examining the flowers and inflorescence! Its also great to read that the Costa Rican A. rostrata gets frond to 9meters long

What surprized me a lot though was the last info about the seed size...Is this or certain like that in the description?I ask because i have seeds collected from an Attalea in Costas Rica,from inside the natural reserve of Guantanacaste(Thanks a lot Luis!!!),and they are around 5 or maybe more cm long and 1,5 to 2cm in diametre,at their fattest point. There were 3 Attalea,growing side by side,same size and same characteristics and the seeds came from one of them...Is there any chance the description is wrong in this point?Could you maybe check it with any other references of A. rostrata?Its odd too for the current description as the fruit is said to be 5-6cm long and the seed less than half the length?

Jeff,did you happen to see a seed from the Attalea of your photos?If yes,how big was it?

Thank you very much in advance!

Edited November 25, 2008 by Kostas

[Jeff in St Pete]

Thanks for the descriptions Eric!

Kostas, here are some recent pictures of some seeds. I will measure one for you and post the results here. The seeds are more orange in color than yellow, and the seeds turn a dark brown (almost black) when they fall and dry.

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for the photos Jeff!!!

Once they mature,or if you find an old fallen one,i would very much appreciate if you could tell me the dimensions of the actual seeds(with the fruit removed) of this palm

[Eric in Orlando]

That is the only reference I have that has a description of both species seperately.

[Kostas]

Thanks a lot for researching it Eric!

I think Jeff's measurements will help us a lot on that since that is a Costa Rica native palm too!

[realarch]

Just looking at the seed in the photos that Jeff posted they are considerably smaller and more numerous than the A. butyracea in eastern Ecuador.

I'll post of pics later of the palm and seed.

Tim

[Jeff in St Pete]

Thanks a lot for researching it Eric!

I think Jeff's measurements will help us a lot on that since that is a Costa Rica native palm too!

Kostas, I checked on the seeds today and couldn't find any on the ground, just lots of seedlings popping up from the last batch of seeds that fell.

I will keep checking and let you know.

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for your replys both of you!

Thank you very much Tim! Looking forward to seeing a picture of a real A. butyracea!

Thank you very much for looking for fallen seeds Jeff!

I guess this new batch just needs a few more months to mature and fall and then it will be easier

I checked again the descriptions Eric provided and for A. butyracea,the stated fruit length is 4-5cm and seeds 1-2 in each seed(no stated seed size,from what i have seen in seed photos of A. butyracea with scale key provided,they must be about 3cm long...but i dont know if its surely A. butyracea and not A. rostrata for example as not all treat them as seperate...) while for A. rostrata its 5-6cm fruit length ,1 seed always and 2-2,6cm long...To me this must surely has a flaw somewhere...It just doesnt sound right!

Now lets wait for the fruits to mature...

[realarch]

Hi Kostas, Hello Jeff,

Here are a few photos of A.butyracea I took a couple of weeks back in Ecuador. The seeds are probably 3 inches long. They were just out of

reach for me to grab a few. They do look similar to your photos Jeff, but less numerous and larger. That's just my observation.

Tim

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for the photo Tim! Sorry for replying so late but just now i noticed your post searching for my thread!

Beautyfull photo,its a shame you couldnt reach those big seeds... But you were very lucky to go to Ecuador anyway,i would love to visit it one day!

Are you sure this was an Attalea butyracea and not another Attalea species?I ask because on the net i have only found A. butyracea seed photos of 3cm seeds,no bigger...

Thank you very much in advance!

[Jose Maria]

I have some pictures I took from Attalea rostrata, just the same species as in Jeff´s photos.

2 seeds and 2 fruits.

If you want some seeds from this tree, Kostas,send me a PM with your address.

Now I know it´s a A.rostrata.

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for your reply and photos Jose!

Thank you very much for your seed offer! I have Attalea seeds from inside the Guanacaste reserve,most possibly A. rostrata,and i opened this thread to try and positively id these seeds for sure and get more info on the taxonomy and characteristics of this species,so i am ok from seeds but will keep your offer in mind! If there is any Greek species you need or a palm species you can find and want,pm me and i may be able to help!

The seeds i have are the same shape as the pictured ones but 1-2cm bigger i think.I still hadnt had the chance to measure them exactly but all seem to be in the 5-6cm range.Maybe a geographical seed size variation within the species?Were there any seeds bigger than the pictured ones?

I think this definetely shows that the 2-2,6cm seed length the species description lists,must be wrong,at least for the Costa Rican geographical variation...

Btw,it seems like one beautyfull palm Jose!Is it yours?

[Carlo Morici]

As far as I have understood all Attalea in CR are A.rostrata. During our trip in 2008, I visited various stands of A.rostrata and we noticed some remarkable variation among stands. For example, ripe fruits in Jacó (Dry) were much smaller than in Manuel Antonio (Humid). We felt that collections from dry areas would grow better in the drier subtropics.

I can't speculate as if this keeps through cultivation or not. My experience with wild Attalea is limited to that trip. I understand that large seeded Attalea species (and Acrocomia) grow in much different environments, as they have a wide "ecological amplitude". Their distribution is often biased by dispersors and disturbance. As long as the bush is burned and the cattle goes, they don't mind about where they are. Maybe somebody from CR can check this better.

Carlo

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for your reply Carlo!

Yes,all native Attalea on CR are A. rostrata but you never know what someone may had planted years ago,thats why i am looking for verification But if you say that Attalea stands on drier places have smaller seeds and the ones in humid and wet areas bigger,that would perfectly explain the bigger size of my seeds as the place they were collected seems very humid to me and also,there is a river in Guanacaste so this muct be keeping the surrounding area moist yearround I am currently germinating these beautyfull big(ish) seeds and cant wait for them to sprout!!!

[Jeff in St Pete]

Kostas, seeds are finally dropping from the large Attalea at the edge of the beach. I took some photos but I can't find a ruler so I couldn't measure them.

You can see a couple fruits on the left that me and the housekeeper were munching on. When she saw me carrying them she said "Que rico!". She pulled off the outer skin and started eating the pulp. I gave it a try and it tastes somewhat like a peach, although it was a bit too oily for me.

I put a seed next to a D battery for scale. It's about the same length, maybe just a little bit smaller than the battery.

[Kostas]

Thank you very much for the photos Jeff!

From the photos,these seem to me about 5cm long and expect the seed to be about that long too which, with what Carlo said,would explain my large seeds!Unfortunately i dont have a D size battery at home but will take a ruller and measure one at the supermarket Could you mabe clean one of the seed to see its exact length in relation to the D battery?

Its very interesting the fruits are edible and sweet!Didnt knew that and would certainly like to try mine once my Attalea rostrata fruits some many years in the future Or a trip to CR would be good too!

P.s.:What does ''rico'' mean?

Thank you very much in advance!

[Jeff in St Pete]

Kostas, I will find a tape measure or ruler and measure the fruits and the seeds and I will let you know.

I was surprised at how tasty the fruit is, if it wasn't so oily tasting, it would be even better.

Literally translated "rico" means "rich", but everyone here in Costa Rica uses it to describe good food (among other things).

You should come to Costa Rica!

[Jose Maria]

Hi Kostas, Jeff and friends,

Yes the ones in the pictures of Jeff are the same as here where I live.

No Kostas,this palm is not mine(I have one on my farm though)There are lots of them around, so the pictures I take are from palms along the road.

These palms have little economic value. I saw once that around a pigstie, there were a lot of seeds. Sometimes, they are given to pigs, but I guess the indians might have cooked them. The smell is like butter, yellow and all.

Maybe they could be used sometime for oil etc...But right now these palms cannot compete with the african oilpalm.