Palm latitude extremes.

[cfkingfish]

People like to debate the furthest growing coconut, most northerly in FL, southerly in OZ, etc. so why not discuss what other species grow at extremes both north and south of the equator? Please discuss the details, as in how long, does it seed, etc. I think palms that have not been in the ground a year don't get to go on the list. Here are a few, this got me thinking as I saw an extreme planting yesterday. Verchaffeltia splendida - Bokeelia, FL (Pine Island) Pinanga batanensis - St. Petersburg, FL (7 feet of wood and a stunner!) Pinanga cochinchinensis - Sarasota, FL Sabal palmetto - healthy protected ones outside on Virginia Beach, VA's strip. I saw one driving up Rt. 17 in Jacksonville, NC with 20 feet of wood and very healthy - it was seeding at the time. I actually take this way from VA Beach to Savannah because you can go Sabal hunting. Anyone want to take a shot?

[mnorell]

I think Alex Woollcott's Coccothrinax crinita (old man palm) in Atlanta must be a candidate, he says it is never bothered by cold, even into the teens. Of course, someone may be growing this in Santa Barbara or in the Azores or Portugal, which would knock Atlanta out from a pure latitudinal standpoint. But climate-wise it must be classified as an extreme for a successful unprotected tropical palm.

[BobSDCA]

I think Alex Woollcott's Coccothrinax crinita (old man palm) in Atlanta must be a candidate, he says it is never bothered by cold, even into the teens. Of course, someone may be growing this in Santa Barbara or in the Azores or Portugal, which would knock Atlanta out from a pure latitudinal standpoint. But climate-wise it must be classified as an extreme for a successful unprotected tropical palm.

There are people growing Coccothrinax crinita in Thousand Oaks, California at 34 deg 12 min. Also, growing this species in Los Angeles (34 deg. 3.1 min) is farther north. It is easy to forget that LA is farther north than Atlanta (33 deg 45.3 min.) Growing Coccothrinax crinita in Thousand Oaks would be equivalent to growing it in Cumming, Georgia (34 deg. 12.4 min.)

How about Washigtonia robusta in Redding, California (40 deg. 34.4 min.). That is equivalent to growing it in Madrid, Spain (40 deg 28.3 min.) or just south of Naples, Italy? What about Trachycarpus fortunei in BC, Canada or Ireland?

[Pivi]

How about Washigtonia robusta in Redding, California (40 deg. 34.4 min.). That is equivalent to growing it in Madrid, Spain (40 deg 28.3 min.) or just south of Naples, Italy?

what's weird about washingotnia robusta in madrid or Naples?

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

How about Ravena rivularis in the San Joaquin valley ?( Modesto , Ca )

Here is a photo Glenn from Modesto ( in pic ) just emailed me photo of a four year old Ravena rivularis, growing in a yard not far from where we live.

It is out in the open and took 2007's cold of low 20's with some leaf burn.... but as you can see it is growing nicely.

Jeff

[Pivi]

that's a four year old ravanea? from seed?

[John in Andalucia]

It would be good to hear from some members in New Zealand. There are a few Scandinavian members here too. Cecilia in Sweden was embarking on planting out her Phoenix roebelenii until a few people advised her to take it indoors. She's at 55°22'N. She also has a Phoenix canariensis which apparently will be staying outside this winter. Looking forward to an update on that topic.

[bgl]

Great concept, Christian! Unfortunately, I have nothing to add!

I know it's easy to simplify and just look at the numbers (=latitude), but let's not forget that it's much more of a challenge to grow palms in certain locations. For instance, Atlanta gets hit with snow blizzards every now and then...when was the last time that happened in Los Angeles? And Madrid has a typical inland climate with (relatively) cold winter nights. Much more of a challenge to grow palms there than in Naples, which is right on the (relatively) warm waters of the Mediterranean.

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

How about Ravena rivularis in the San Joaquin valley ?( Modesto , Ca )

Here is a photo Glenn from Modesto ( in pic ) just emailed me photo of a four year old Ravena rivularis, growing in a yard not far from where we live.

It is out in the open and took 2007's cold of low 20's with some leaf burn.... but as you can see it is growing nicely.

Jeff

Tisk Tisk... I guess should of said... I believe its been in the ground for 4 years.

My guess is that the owner bought if from a big box store that sell 3 gal sized ones for next to nothing.

Jeff

[Kev Spence]

My Juania australis is growing in my garden, outside for 3 years now, and my latitude is 52.72ºN must be one of the most northerly palms of this spp although the famous Juania growing in Ireland is at a similar latitude.

[kylecawazafla]

There is a trunking Washingtonia growing in Washington! It's planted at a hospital right in front of a hot air blowing vent. I don't know how it is now though, since I haven't seen a recent photos. That's approximately 47 degrees north though. Someone has fruiting Phoenix canariensis in Kirkland, Washington as well and also Sabal palmetto and Butia capitata with about 10 feet of trunk at the top of Cougar Mountain in Bellevue, Washington. They were planted that large, however. I bet these palms could grow in Northern Germany at even higher latitudes. Northernmost lipstick palm is probably in the canary islands!

[kylecawazafla]

Great concept, Christian! Unfortunately, I have nothing to add!

I bet your Manicaria and Socratea may be record breakers!!

[Pivi]

There is a trunking Washingtonia growing in Washington! It's planted at a hospital right in front of a hot air blowing vent. I don't know how it is now though, since I haven't seen a recent photos. That's approximately 47 degrees north though. Someone has fruiting Phoenix canariensis in Kirkland, Washington as well and also Sabal palmetto and Butia capitata with about 10 feet of trunk at the top of Cougar Mountain in Bellevue, Washington. They were planted that large, however. I bet these palms could grow in Northern Germany at even higher latitudes. Northernmost lipstick palm is probably in the canary islands!

no chance for washingtonia or phoenix in germany. Not even southern germany.

They do plant them there but in winter they make little greenhouses around them and heat them with electric units.

sabal palmeto maybe yes.

Edited December 6, 2008 by Pivi

[The Palm Nut]

Lipstick and Licuala grandis growing outside at my place. Lipstick 3years and grandis 5years.

Mike

[cfkingfish]

Yes, the interior areas and places not affected by warm currents are just as impressive. For example, I live at the same latitude as around West Palm, but it stays milder there due to the Gulf Stream.

My main reason was seeing how far tropical plants are making it up and own coasts/interior so I can get some info on plants that may or may not be worth planting in the ground.

Here is what has seen a winter or two already in the ground here:

Neoveitchia storckii

Roystonea violacea

Calyptrocalyx micholitzii

Pritchardia woodfordiana

[PalmGuyWC]

Wow!

That Ravena rivularis in Modesto looks good. Maybe I should try one since our climates are about the same. I've seen a few small ones growing in Concord which is right next door to Walnut Creek, but they looked ratty, probably rarely watered or fertilized. They were growing in a strip mall. I had to laugh a few years ago when I saw someone had planted a small Coconut in their front yard in Concord. I'm surprised it made it through the summer.

Dick

[migacebo]

... Northernmost lipstick palm is probably in the canary islands!

I think that C. renda is possible in the coast of Canary Islands. I planted it in october. This autum is been "very cold" (min. 13ºC), but she is growing fast:

The day of plantation:

The day 23-11-08, is growing.

In the summer of 2009, more news

Greetings

[Bennz]

I think more relevant is palm latitude extremes relative to habitat. Equatorial mountains have totally different daylength patterns than high latitudes even if the overall temps might be similar.

Some extremes I have heard of on Otago Peninsula, at about 44S;

Ceroxylon

Rhopalostylis

Howea

Hedyscepe

Trachycarpus

Phoenix

Of this group the ceroxylon is about 40 degrees of latitude south of habitat (equator to high latitude)! I've often wondered what that does to a plants growth pattern?? Not really a big deal to gro Howea 10degrees further south than habitat.

[SouthSeaNate]

Here in Southsea on the south coast of the UK we are at 50.8 N, there are fruiting Phoenix canariensis planted close to the seafront which have produced viable seed (believed to be a UK first), they were planted over 12 years ago...

In my own garden I have various palms planted out, though many other enthusiasts grow the same species much further north than me, however I do think that I may possibly have the most northerly growing Archontophoenix cunninghamiana??? The oldest of which has been planted outside for the last 6 years...

[Tassie_Troy1971]

Down here @ lat 42.5 " South , Hobart grows great Howea forsteriana. Mine grow all through winter . This one must be over 50 yrs old .

we are the same lattitude as Hampton Beach New Hampshire and Toronto Canada !!

[palmsOrl]

Southseanate, that is very impressive. If someone had discussed growing any crownshaft palm outdoors in Britain 5-10 years ago, I would have laughed. Archontopheonix cunninghamiana is a great candidate to try for your area(of any crownshaft palm) and yours look great. Thanks for sharing.

[Neofolis]

All of my marginal stuff has been safely growing in my polytunnel up to now, but I hope to have some contenders in the coming years. Anything I have will remain in pots, but the marginal stuff will be tested outside as it gets larger. For the moment, I have Trachycarpus fortunei, Pheonix canariensis and Jubaea X Butia F2, which have all come through winters outside with no problems at 51°02'08" North, but there are other people further North in the UK alone who have these species outside. I have Chamaedorea microspadix and Phoenix loureiroi var. loureiroi outside for their first winter this year. I'm fairly sure there are also microspadix further north in the UK that have already survived winters outside, I'm not sure about the loureiroi, but I doubt I am the furthest north with this either. I also have dactylifera outside for the first time this year, but again there are probably examples further north than me. In the next year or two, I will be trying Dypsis heteromorpha and Chamaedorea cataractarum, which again will be possible contenders, but I suspect there are already examples further north. Northern Ireland has generally milder than here in the winter and further north, but it's also wetter than here and not as warm in summer, so maybe good for some species, less so for others. The western isles of Scotland also have very mild winters for their latitude, so may be home to some possible record holders.

I remember Andy (AJQ), who used to post quite regularly was tring a few narginal things in Northern Ireland, Geonoma schottiana, etc.

Nate, I'm very impressed with your Archontophoenix cunninghamiana. I love this species, but never thought it was worth trying here. There has been a lot of talk in the past about the ones that grow at reasonable altitude in habitat and see temperatures much lower than the normal range, but I don't know if anyone has tried seed from these trees in cooler areas.

[Pivi]

Southseanate, that is very impressive. If someone had discussed growing any crownshaft palm outdoors in Britain 5-10 years ago, I would have laughed. Archontopheonix cunninghamiana is a great candidate to try for your area(of any crownshaft palm) and yours look great. Thanks for sharing.

It is impressive, but just a note.

Great Britain and South end of Great Britain is not the same.

Gulf stream from the atlantic ocean has a large influence in south.

[Roaringwater]

Because of the Gulf Stream, palm growing zones in western europe extend further away from the equator than anywhere else in the world. Rhopalostylis sapida has been grown on Tresco, Isles of Scilly at 49 degrees north (zone 10a), since the mid-nineteenth century. Although century-old trees were killed by a freak frost of -8c in 1987, their replacements are already a good size. Some coastal areas of Ireland are even milder than Tresco, and have never gone below -4c. Rhopalostylis 'Oceana' is doing well in my own garden, at 51 degrees north:

I am now trying Howea forsteriana and Hedyscepe canterburyana. I've already had a couple of seedlings of Lepidorhacchis mooreana outside for three years. Ireland can boast of having the northernmost established Juania australis in the world, growing at Earlscliffe near Dublin at 53 degrees north (zone 9b). It was planted in 1996, and has already reached an impressive size, despite never having been given any fertiliser! Here it is:

Phoenix canariensis is being grown successfully as far north as Nairn, Scotland at 57 degrees north (zone 8b), along with Jubaea chilensis and Trithrinax campestris.

The northernmost palms are to be found along the west coast of Norway. Trachycarpus fortunei is grown without protection in Bergen, Norway at 60 degrees north (zone 8b). With a tent to keep off the worst of the snow, it is grown in Alesund, Norway, at 62 degrees north. Alesund has the coldest zone 9a climate in the world. The temperature there rarely drops lower than -5c, but also hardly rises above freezing for much of the winter. It seems that Trachycarpus can cope with this extended hibernation.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Roaringwater

[SouthSeaNate]

It is true that southern & western coastal areas of the UK are generally milder than the rest of the country, as is central London. Where I live is situated on an island, infact its the UK's only island city (& one of only 2 cities in Europe to be completely surrounded by water, the other being Venice). Portsmouth is also the second most densely populated place in the UK (& 13th most densely populated in Europe), so we gain extra warmth from the urban heat island effect also.

There are suposed to be hardier strains of Archontophoenix cunninghamiana which regularly experience temperatures down as low as -7C, but as far as i'm aware these plants are not available in cultivation. The good thing about "Bangalows" is that they do not need much heat to grow, so will grow at a decent speed even here with our unpredictable summers. Light frosts do not seem to bother them but mine were damaged by a freak snow fall we had here back in April (the damage can be seen on the lower fronds in the pic I posted earlier), this is the only damage they have ever suffered.

I also have a couple of smallish Howea forsteriana that have been planted out for at least the last 3 years & a Rhopalostylis bauerii, which gows much faster than sapida & is now around 3 ft tall since being planted as a seedling...

[Pivi]

what do you mean "one of only 2 cities in Europe to be completely surrounded by water?"

I live in croatia, on an island. My place is also considered a CITY (long history) and some other towns on other islands...

and there are many others in europe.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Pivi

[cfkingfish]

I think the idea of Archontophoenix in England is great, I would not be surprised if A. cunninghamiana does well there. I think it is amazing after 500 years of exploration outside the Old World that Europe is now broadening its garden horizons. I know some palms and tropicals were found to do well before, but within the past 25-30 years I think mentality has changed through communication.

[SouthSeaNate]

what do you mean "one of only 2 cities in Europe to be completely surrounded by water?"

I live in croatia, on an island. My place is also considered a CITY (long history) and some other towns on other islands...

and there are many others in europe.

I'm only going on what I have read in encyclopedias & on the internet. I know many countries are situated on islands, but from what I have read only 2 cities in Europe are situated on islands, Portsmouth & Venice...

[Pivi]

what do you mean "one of only 2 cities in Europe to be completely surrounded by water?"

I live in croatia, on an island. My place is also considered a CITY (long history) and some other towns on other islands...

and there are many others in europe.

I'm only going on what I have read in encyclopedias & on the internet. I know many countries are situated on islands, but from what I have read only 2 cities in Europe are situated on islands, Portsmouth & Venice...

Ok, but then encyclopedias tell you wrong... who knows what they consider as a city?

It's too funny for me.

i'll give you one example which your encyclopedias don't mention: Palermo on Sicily.

Anyway, i don't want to go of topic anymore. sorry.

[SouthSeaNate]

what do you mean "one of only 2 cities in Europe to be completely surrounded by water?"

I live in croatia, on an island. My place is also considered a CITY (long history) and some other towns on other islands...

and there are many others in europe.

I'm only going on what I have read in encyclopedias & on the internet. I know many countries are situated on islands, but from what I have read only 2 cities in Europe are situated on islands, Portsmouth & Venice...

Ok, but then encyclopedias tell you wrong... who knows what they consider as a city?

It's too funny for me.

i'll give you one example which your encyclopedias don't mention: Palermo on Sicily.

Anyway, i don't want to go of topic anymore. sorry.

Palermo is a city on Sicily, Sicily is the island, not Palermo. I am talking about cities who sit on their own islands, not a city that is on an island country.

For example Venice is in Italy, but situated on its own islands. Portsmouth is in England but situated on it's own island...

The definition of a city over here is that it must have a cathedral, I don't know how other countries class their cities...

Sorry to stay off topic...

[bubba]

Ropies at 50 plus, Juania australis at 53,Howea's at 50,Phoenix together with Jubea chilinesia and Thrithnax at 57.Trachy's at 62!My next golf trip to Ireland and Scotland I am looking for palms! Incredible.The power of the Gulfstream!

[Roaringwater]

Palms are still not that common in Ireland, perhaps because most people think they have one already! Cordyline australis is everywhere, and can grow to an immense size in coastal areas. Many people refer to it as a palm.

One old veteran is this Phoenix canariensis growing at Fota Gardens, south of Cork City. It was planted some time in the early 20th century. There are also some very old Trachys and Chamaerops there, as well as some younger Butia capitata. The lowest temperature that has been recorded at Fota was -7c back in '87, so they could plant a much wider range of palms. Ceroxylons and Parajubaeas would be my choice. And yes, there is a golf course nearby! Other gardens to see palms at are Glengarriff Bamboo Park, and Garinish Island, as well as Kells House. These are all in West Cork or Kerry. You should also see Dereen Gardens for the naturalised tree ferns (Dicksonia antarctica and Cyathea dealbata).

There are many other interesting specimen trees at Fota, like this 40 metre Eucalyptus muelleri:

[Pivi]

PLease, not eucalyptus here, wrong topic

[bubba]

That Cordyline thing is incredible! amazing stuff!

[Ken Johnson]

Another topic may be the most northerly palm found growing the furthest south. You know the ones that "don't like heat"?

I know there are ceroxylon in Florida for example but how far south?

[Neofolis]

What about some of the South Pacific Islands. I know they don't have the benefit of Gulf Stream influence, but they are truely oceanic with no large land masses within 1000's of miles and most importantantly no land masses south of them until Antarctica. I dare say they don't get much summer heat, but I assume they have fairly mild winters. Campbell Island, for example, is about 52°30' South or The Falkland Islands between 51°15' - 52°15' South in the Atlantic. South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands are even further south at over 54°, with no land mass anywhere nearby.

[Bennz]

What about some of the South Pacific Islands. I know they don't have the benefit of Gulf Stream influence, but they are truely oceanic with no large land masses within 1000's of miles and most importantantly no land masses south of them until Antarctica. I dare say they don't get much summer heat, but I assume they have fairly mild winters. Campbell Island, for example, is about 52°30' South or The Falkland Islands between 51°15' - 52°15' South in the Atlantic. South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands are even further south at over 54°, with no land mass anywhere nearby.

Yeah, we have subantartic islands that fit into USDA zone 10, probably 10b. Sounds ok until you realise 15C is a heatwave! Ceroxylon parvifrons might be a candidate at a stretch, and assuming you collected from the absolutely highest altitude, but not much else.

[Bennz]

What about some of the South Pacific Islands. I know they don't have the benefit of Gulf Stream influence, but they are truely oceanic with no large land masses within 1000's of miles and most importantantly no land masses south of them until Antarctica. I dare say they don't get much summer heat, but I assume they have fairly mild winters. Campbell Island, for example, is about 52°30' South or The Falkland Islands between 51°15' - 52°15' South in the Atlantic. South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands are even further south at over 54°, with no land mass anywhere nearby.

Yeah, we have subantartic islands that fit into USDA zone 10, probably 10b. Sounds ok until you realise 15C is a heatwave! Ceroxylon parvifrons might be a candidate at a stretch, and assuming you collected from the absolutely highest altitude, but not much else.

Climate stats for Grytviken;;

http://www.weatherbase.com/weather/weather...0988&refer=

Campbell Island looks quite tropical by comparison!

http://www.weatherbase.com/weather/weather...4939&refer=

[DoomsDave]

WOW!

Hmm.

How about Cocos nucifera furthest from the big E -- equator . . . .

Newport Beach, CA?

Oops!

Sorry, smack me 'ead, widda' balla' lead . . . .

[Jeff in St Pete]

Love the photos from Ireland! It truly is amazing what the Gulf Stream enables you to grow there.