topical fungicide for trunk wounds?

[palmazon]

We're treating a large kentia (>7' trunk) with a split near the soil line; the split has rotted and formed an inclusion due to entry/retention of water. My inclination is to carve away the rotted tissue and plug the cavity with Bondo or mortar (after allowing the wound to dry out). Is there a contact fungicide I ought to apply as well before filling?

[DoomsDave]

HOw about some of that Turkish Paint Thinner?

[MattyB]

I'm sure you've thought of this Danny, but in case you haven't; H30. Apply with a spray bottle several times over a week or two period allowing to dry out well between applications. It's cheap and works great as a topical fungicide. I've had pretty good luck with it in all sorts of applications including mouth wash, but that's a different thread. Sounds like you and Dave have your own special type of mouth wash.

Thought of something else. My neighbor sprays a very heavy mix (not diluted much) of Daconil (chlorothalonil) on the caudexes of his cycads before winter. It dries and leaves a white residue that does not wash off easily, even after rain.

Stop working so much and show us some pictures damn it!

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Danny, dont listen to Matt!

Hydronium (H30) is bad for palms... In all likelyhood it would burn a hole in your palm in a couple days!! Matt are you washing your mouth with acid? (not that kind of acid Prince Snark that would be C20H25N3O )

Use H2O2, hydrogen peroxide, instead...

Yes, Matty we know you meant it!

(Who would have known? I actually paid attention in Organic chem!)

[DoomsDave]

Ah, yesh, organic chemishtry . . . . . .

[palm freak]

I had trunk damage that rotten in a Hyophorbe lagenicaulis six months ago (rainy season).

Treatment :

1-Carve away all rotted tissue and clean thoroughly

2-Prepare a sustrate mix to fill the cavity: soil, bordeaux mixture and all purpose ready mixed joint compound

3-Apply a layer of the joint compound to seal

See the pics

I'll be sealing back again soon.

[MattyB]

Ahhhhh crap, I meant H2O2. Good thing William is here to translate for me. That's a pretty neat trick Al! Almost as neat as getting the expanded photo to appear smaller than the thumbnail. How'd ya do that? Just joking Al, that's a pretty nice save job you did there. Thanks for the pic.

[Tala]

I would hesitate to fill it in, no good will come of that. You'll just be trapping moisture, bacteria, etc. in there. UF studies recommend this as well. Just treat w/ any topical fung. and brace it as best you can. Copper is only proven fung. for bacterial issues, many like H2O2 but it's achievements are only anecdotal (i.e. not laboratory approved). Not saying it doesn't work but no one has ever really studied the issue, they just swear by it ...

[LJG]

Why do you say it H2O2 is anecdotal? It has been studied a lot and proven to be a antiviral, antibacterial, and antifungal. Did you just mean never lab-proven on plants? I always figured if the FDA approves it for antifungal uses, then it would carry over to plants.

Just curious about this since I am always looking to find better solutions for treating damaged plants.

I would hesitate to fill it in, no good will come of that. You'll just be trapping moisture, bacteria, etc. in there. UF studies recommend this as well. Just treat w/ any topical fung. and brace it as best you can. Copper is only proven fung. for bacterial issues, many like H2O2 but it's achievements are only anecdotal (i.e. not laboratory approved). Not saying it doesn't work but no one has ever really studied the issue, they just swear by it ...

[palmazon]

Don Hodel recommended Cleary's 3336 and leave the cavity open (yea, Tala).

Now - where can I pick up less than $200 worth of Cleary's 3336???

Dave: you keep outta this - he doesn't have to shoot you now

(note: Looney Tunes Bugs Bunny/Daffy Duck/Elmer Fudd routine - I'm not serious about shooting anybody)

Matty: my camera has been abused to the point of dysfunction; I'll attempt an image with my cellophone.

Palm Freak: this is for a cherished friend and esteemed client - no offense intended, but I wouldn't do that even for my mother-in-law...

Len: anecdotal is fine as long as it produces desired results

[rozpalm]

Bill, you are quite the chemical engineer. Lysergic acid diethylamide probaby would never be good for plants but it certainly has produced some great works of art and some good music to boot.

[kahili]

I think there is some confusion about how to apply hydrogen peroxide-so that it is effective.

H2O2 works by drying out the spores, but the key here is to have the H2O2 come into direct contact with the spores. It works well on a fungus like a leaf spot where there is nothing to inhibit the H2O2 from drying out the spores, but it will not work in killing spores that are in the soil as the soil inhibits direct contact between all the spores and the H2O2. It is also why it isnt used as a preventative-there has to be a fungus present in order for it to be effective. I personally use hydrogen dioxide as it is much stronger.

for Palmazon's situation, after he cleans out all the rotted material, it would be worthwhile to spray H2O2 in the cleaned out area, assuming that he can remove all the rotted stuff, then let it dry out well, and I would even do it again. A good systemic fungicide would not hurt (would actually be good), but without knowing what fungus you are treating, it would just be a guess.

[LJG]

Cleary's 3336 and Heritage seems to be the drug of choice for SoCal Agricultural Pest Control guys. So if you can't find Cleary's 3336, look for Heritage. Oh yeah, it is twice as much.

[kahili]

Clearys is a good systemic fungicide, it will last about 2 wks. I would both drench the soil with it and spray the affected area of it. Thiophanate-methyl is the active ingredient in Clearys and now it is sold under quite a few names. Lesco/John Deere sells it as T-storm (I think thats their name-so many sell it now under other names), and its about $ 60 or less for a bag (WP). It shouldn't be that hard to find. For full strength, I would use 5-6T/20 gallons of water. You can reapply in 2 wks.

Heritage is also a good systemic, but as Len said, its a lot pricier, but does have good coverage for a month. I have read where it is starting to have some resistence issues though.

[Tala]

yeah on my earlier post, and I guess I should quantify this, as far as I know no one has ever studied the effects of H2O2 on plant material. Again I'm not sayin it don't work, many well respected peoples have told me of it's wonders. I don't use the stuff, if I have to make a life or death choice on my plants I'm goin w/ what I know will work - copper. Clearys is thiophanate methyl, can also be found as T-Storm, other brand names. Good stuff, a systemic as well but again nothing handles bacteria but copper. Heritage can also be found as Compass I think, we've been using it oon turf grass diseases (large/brown patch, pythium, etc.). And yeah it is $$$.

I have a question for those who do use H2O2 - what happens when you pour it into a healthy palm? Off top of me head I'd pass on it for a few reasons. It breaks down extremely quick once exposed to light (thus the brown bottle packaging), and I'm not sure of the correct term for this, I want to say its biocide but not sure - it does kill healthy tissue (cells?) as well. Thus a new found reluctance to dump this stuff in open wounds by medical profession.

Quick funny sidebar on Hodel - he visited my place after a local presentation, I was busy showing off my goods and what ends up capturing his (and his grad. asst's) attention more than anything else - a canariensis loaded w/ graphiola false smut! They couldn't snap enough shots. Guess that doesn't say much for my place ...

[LJG]

Not sure about elsewhere but in CA both Cleary's and Heritage require a license to buy. So did Subdue, but the guy at Grangettos looks around, then says real soft "Tell me its for indoor use only". Not sure why the hell that matter, but once I said it he sold me Subdue without a license.

[DoomsDave]

I'M GOING TO BLOW UP THE EARTH!

It obstructs my view of Venus . . . .

[palmazon]

License? We don' have to show you no stinkin' license...

seriously, though - most 'license required' preparations are available online

[rozpalm]

I bought Heritage from John Deere (Lesco) with no license. I have also bought Aliette from them. The Heritage was $425/lb. Of course you can buy all of these online.

[Kris]

I would hesitate to fill it in, no good will come of that. You'll just be trapping moisture, bacteria, etc. in there. UF studies recommend this as well. Just treat w/ any topical fung. and brace it as best you can. Copper is only proven fung. for bacterial issues, many like H2O2 but it's achievements are only anecdotal (i.e. not laboratory approved). Not saying it doesn't work but no one has ever really studied the issue, they just swear by it ...

Dear Tala

I must agree with you what you have said,after the recent rains,our Med Fan Palm preety big palm has started to rot,slowely & steadily...i have tried treating it with copper based fungicide & with hydrogen peroxide in the central spear area.i must say their is no positive effect...the death process is proceeding as on schedule.i have seen the same in one of our washy filifera last year which was also treated with fungicides..,but the only difference is that washy was planted in the ground but the med fan is still in huge plastic barrel !

i will soon post stills of this dieing process in one of my floods related threads..

Love,

Kris

[MattyB]

Danny,

Scotts has a lawn fungus control that uses T-methyl as it's active ingredient. I've always bought it at Home Depot, in an orangey pink bag. It's cheap, like $8. It's granular so wetting and making a mash to wrap onto the trunk might be you're only way. I pile it in the petiole/leaf bases of my Archontophoenix in winter to prevent pink rot. I'd spread it around the base too, to let the systemic properties kick in also.

Scotts Lawn Fungus Control

[kahili]

Matty, I looked at the % of T-methyl in the Scotts and its only 2.3%, whereas in Clearys etc, it is at 50%, so thats a big difference in effectiveness, and why its only $ 8.00!

I would think that you wouldn't have to pile it onto the leafbases-isn't that kind of messy looking? What-does it drip down the plant when it rains? lol Once the active ingredient is absorbed into the plant (thru the soil or leaves) then that clumpy mess is useless, usually within a few days depending on the amt of water it gets. I would just make sure that you keep applying it to the soil every 2 wks or so-that should give you as much coverage as clumping it on the leaf bases-better in fact.

[MattyB]

kahili,

I don't apply pesticide or fungicide to my soil unless the situation is dire. This being a preventative measure I just pile it in the leaf base hoping that any overnight condensation, overspray, or rain filters down through the granules and carries fungicide along the inside of the crownshaft, which is where pink rot always starts. If it does rain hard enough to wash any granules out then it usually washes them off of the trunk too. It's not messy. The granules sort of stick together once exposed to the humidity. I didn't realize that the % was so low compared to clearys. I just thought I found a substitute that you could easily buy at the local store.

[kahili]

I was mostly just joking about how it would look-I was picturing a melting snow cone with the stuff dripping down the trunk. I use Merit sometimes in containers and I hate how it forms that wet clump. I can dig not using stuff in the soil, I never use anything on my palms except slow release fert in the spring. The few times that I had spear pull in the spring, they all just came back without me doing anything.

[Big Tex]

I would hesitate to fill it in, no good will come of that. You'll just be trapping moisture, bacteria, etc. in there. UF studies recommend this as well. Just treat w/ any topical fung. and brace it as best you can. Copper is only proven fung. for bacterial issues, many like H2O2 but it's achievements are only anecdotal (i.e. not laboratory approved). Not saying it doesn't work but no one has ever really studied the issue, they just swear by it ...

I have encountered this issue with the trunk split in a foxtail. How many times a week should the copper based fungicide be sprayed?

[Tala]

I would hesitate to fill it in, no good will come of that. You'll just be trapping moisture, bacteria, etc. in there. UF studies recommend this as well. Just treat w/ any topical fung. and brace it as best you can. Copper is only proven fung. for bacterial issues, many like H2O2 but it's achievements are only anecdotal (i.e. not laboratory approved). Not saying it doesn't work but no one has ever really studied the issue, they just swear by it ...

I have encountered this issue with the trunk split in a foxtail. How many times a week should the copper based fungicide be sprayed?

Tex, if over applied copper can be toxic to palms. Usually one app does the trick, I've often applied a 2nd for winter budrot, but wait at least a few wks before doing so. I don't think I've ever used it more than twice in a season.

[Darold Petty]

Hello Danny;

I would cut out the damaged area back to a smooth surface, but I would not fill the cavity with any material. I believe that the filler would just encourage further rot by trapping moisture. The old practice of filling tree wounds with concrete, or painting the cut branches with a tarry material is now controversial and is no longer the standard practice among many aborists. As a topical fungicide I use powdered sulfur dust applied to the cut surface. I do this for any wound in living tissues; even the cross section of the petiole when I cut off an older leaf. Sulfur is cheap, readily available at retail nurseries, and very safe. I first learned of this application from a cycad expert who would dust the wounds produced by splitting off pups from Cycas revoluta. Generally, I only do this once, or a few times, just until the cut area dries off and no longer presents a moist surface for fungi spores. I saved a windmill palm with sulfur after 1/3 of the trunk area had rotted out. good luck with the Howea!

[Big Tex]

Tex, if over applied copper can be toxic to palms. Usually one app does the trick, I've often applied a 2nd for winter budrot, but wait at least a few wks before doing so. I don't think I've ever used it more than twice in a season.

Thanks, I gave it a good shot yesterday.

[palmazon]

[BS Man about Palms]

I can't believe you're trying to pull it open further!

[Phil]

Danny,

A question then a comment.

That's a nasty wound. I've got about 50 Howea in my yard and I've never seen anything like that. Was there some kind of trauma to the tree? Was it moved? Did that hacker that visited Dave from So-Cal spend some time at your place?

Regarding filling the hole, you'd only do that if you're sure you not sealing in a problem. Sealing in rot and infection will probably bump it off. I like Darold's comments, but it might be drastic surgery. If you choose not to dissect, don't fill it in. Apply whatever, but let it breathe.

Phil

[palmazon]

Hey Phil - the tree is in Ashton's front garden planter, and the wound is hidden; a helper discovered it whilst stringing Christmas lights, A sprinkler was spraying it (which has since been redirected). Don Gardiner (?) sold him the kentias, and perhaps installed them as well - I don't know. As you can see, there are multiple fissures all around the trunk. Your advice is greatly appreciated. And Bill - I was steadying myself as I crouched to take the picture, not trying to pull it open further...

[Darold Petty]

Danny, it's not necessary to cut a lot of trunk away, so Don't! Just cut away the two ragged edges below the fingertips in post #29 at about a 45 degree angle down to the center of the cavity. You can produce an oval wound that's closed at the top and bottom ( 12 and 6) and widest at the middle (9 and 3). Cut just enough to open the wound so that it can dry off quickly after being wetted. Goood luck!

[LJG]

Is Ashton sure a garden gnome does not live in there? Just trying to help.

[Tomsky]

I have several similar splits in the lower trunk of a Brahea brandegeii. These became visible a long time ago and only when the leaf bases were cut off. I've never given it any treatment and the palm seems to be growing fine.

[Tomsky]

Here's the upper part of the trunk with no splits.