How do I germinate Pelagodoxa?

[HI-Keaau]

I have 3 Pelagodoxa seeds from a local garden. Got them at our Palm Society Auction tonight. Each appear heavy fresh and viable. They have the outer bark-like covering on them. I am told that they have a seed inside. One person suggested to remove the outer covering carefully. Another suggested just dropping to see which way it landed and plant it that way with the outer covering on. A 3rd said they have only planted the seeds without the covering.

I haven't seen Pelagodoxa seeds or plant available so I really want 100% germination. I fell in love with them on a garden tour several years ago.

My questions are:

• To remove the seed covering or not?
  
• If so, how?
  
• Any tips on growing it, i have heard it is susceptible to FUNGUS.
  
• How can I protect against fungus - just watch the water??
  

Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge, I'm just a seed...

[John in Andalucia]

I have 3 Pelagodoxa seeds from a local garden. Got them at our Palm Society Auction tonight. Each appear heavy fresh and viable. They have the outer bark-like covering on them. I am told that they have a seed inside. One person suggested to remove the outer covering carefully. Another suggested just dropping to see which way it landed and plant it that way with the outer covering on. A 3rd said they have only planted the seeds without the covering.

I haven't seen Pelagodoxa seeds or plant available so I really want 100% germination. I fell in love with them on a garden tour several years ago.

My questions are:

• To remove the seed covering or not?
  
• If so, how?
  
• Any tips on growing it, i have heard it is susceptible to FUNGUS.
  
• How can I protect against fungus - just watch the water??
  

Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge, I'm just a seed...

Hello Kathleen,

In my experience with germination, the seeds were supplied to me cleaned, as you can see at the bottom of this photo. It certainly won't do any harm to clean them, but that is something I've not had the option to try myself. As you can see, they are half-buried in moist compost, and the box has under-heating. Temperature range is about 75F-90F and obviously very humid. I had 5 seeds sprout in about ten weeks, but I hear they can take up to 2 years. I have 20 seeds in all. I keep mine in the box until the shoot is about 2" long and then pot them up in my greenhouse. They haven't grown much since then, but hopefully that will change in a few weeks time (roll on, Spring). I'm in a Mediterranean climate, so I have no option but to create mini-tropical environments to get some species started. My seeds came from a fellow forum member, FijiJim. He would be able to give you some good advice since he is in the tropics, and I think he cleans them himself. The only problem I have encountered so far, is damping off of two sprouted seeds, and the surface soil was barely moist. It was probably the cool temperatures this winter that did it. So yes, I would avoid top watering unless it is very warm and there's good air circulation.

And before anyone says it, yes there is a labelling error in this photo, and it wasn't me - honest!

[bgl]

Good morning Kathleen!

Glad to see you were able to figure out how to get back on PalmTalk! I just checked my records, but unfortunately I didn't make a note of when I received the seeds. They germinated sporadically. In other words, some took 3-4 months, some took considerably more than that. I kept all mine in plastic containers with the covers on. Hopefully we'll have more responses here!

Bo-Göran

[HI-Keaau]

This is a picture of the 3 seeds, with a US Quarter shown to scale. Each of them has the heft of a very juicy good sized orange (they weigh more than they look)

Thanks for the info John. I want to avoid over-watering? I am assuming just don't let them get dried out but keep them humid. I PM's Fiji Jim to see if he has some ideas too.

Bo, I did get back on - still feeling less than confident with the technology. When you put them in the boxes with the lid on, do you mean "tupperware". If you use a plastic container with a lid, do you moisten the soil, do a good squeeze to get it mostly dry and let it stay in there? How often are you checking on it. Does the moisture stay in and just recirculate in that nice moist environment?

Most of the time I have just silly seeds that don't matter so much, I put them in a pot, stick them in the greenhouse and they normally germinate. No irrigation, the rains take care. Pretty careless gardening, great for lazy gardeners. But now it really matters to me that they germinate.

Thanks for your help,

Kathleen

[John in Andalucia]

Hi Kathleen,

Tupperware is ideal, and the soil should be made moist as you described. Being airtight means no need to add more water. I would check them no more than once a week, and when you open the box, maybe mist the seeds with a hand mister before closing the box again. Keep them warm, and you shouldn't have any problems. Now that you mention the fruit size, and knowing that the cleaned seeds I have are smooth, I would imagine that the seed can be extracted like an avocado seed. Just a guess, but definitely worth doing IMO. The damping off problem I encountered was more to do with the cold - lows of 50F in the greenhouse and wet soil on the surface maybe combined with an overcast day. If I can grow Pelagodoxa, it should be a breeze for you in Hawaii.

[fiji jim]

Hi All,

Good to see some interest in this beautiful but endangered species.

Pelagodoxa henryana seed are only viable when allowed to fall and then the outer fruit needs to decay until it can be washed off. After the seed dries some the thin shell separates from the seed gradually and can be removed. I plant these at that stage or after cleaning the fruit off and there is not much difference. However they can germinate faster without the thin shell. I learnt this information from a study on Pelagodoxa in Tahiti. They will usually take at least 6 months to sprout and will still be happening at 18 months. I have always achieved close to 100% success germinating these and have had seeds starting growth up to 2 and half years from planting.

They are highly variable in germination times but I have found the ones that I have experimented with in boxes on heat-mats do germinate more evenly and much sooner.

Also by the way I had just advertised these for sale at $5 each and now decided to reduce that to $4 each.

Jim

[bgl]

Kathleen,

Yes, as John said, tupperware is perfect and keep the germination medium moist (but not soaking wet). With the lid on, you have a closed system, and you can just leave it like that for months. I typically don't even check on the seeds for the first 3-4 months. And if you happen to forget all about them for a few more months, no big deal. Not only will the typical seedling survive, it'll probably grow like crazy. I actually had some Pelagodoxa seedlings that I forgot all about, and "found" them about 8-9 months after they had germinated. In the tupperware container! And they were fine.

Bo-Göran

[BS Man about Palms]

I have 3 Pelagodoxa seeds from a local garden. Got them at our Palm Society Auction tonight. Each appear heavy fresh and viable. They have the outer bark-like covering on them. I am told that they have a seed inside. One person suggested to remove the outer covering carefully. Another suggested just dropping to see which way it landed and plant it that way with the outer covering on. A 3rd said they have only planted the seeds without the covering.

I haven't seen Pelagodoxa seeds or plant available so I really want 100% germination. I fell in love with them on a garden tour several years ago.

My questions are:

• To remove the seed covering or not?
  
• If so, how?
  
• Any tips on growing it, i have heard it is susceptible to FUNGUS.
  
• How can I protect against fungus - just watch the water??
  

Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge, I'm just a seed...

Hello Kathleen,

In my experience with germination, the seeds were supplied to me cleaned, as you can see at the bottom of this photo. It certainly won't do any harm to clean them, but that is something I've not had the option to try myself. As you can see, they are half-buried in moist compost, and the box has under-heating. Temperature range is about 75F-90F and obviously very humid. I had 5 seeds sprout in about ten weeks, but I hear they can take up to 2 years. I have 20 seeds in all. I keep mine in the box until the shoot is about 2" long and then pot them up in my greenhouse. They haven't grown much since then, but hopefully that will change in a few weeks time (roll on, Spring). I'm in a Mediterranean climate, so I have no option but to create mini-tropical environments to get some species started. My seeds came from a fellow forum member, FijiJim. He would be able to give you some good advice since he is in the tropics, and I think he cleans them himself. The only problem I have encountered so far, is damping off of two sprouted seeds, and the surface soil was barely moist. It was probably the cool temperatures this winter that did it. So yes, I would avoid top watering unless it is very warm and there's good air circulation.

And before anyone says it, yes there is a labelling error in this photo, and it wasn't me - honest!

John- I'm not sure, but were you saying the large seeds in the foreground of this photo are Pelagodoxa? If so, I don't remember seeing any that smooth. All the ones I've seen are like the 3 pictured in post 4, quite "bumpy" really. ??

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Bill, the bumpy stuff is the fruit. It can be removed and the seed will look like what John is showing...

Kathleen, I want to reemphasize the importance of patience on this one. I can't say anything about successful germination , but I can say I have a whole bunch of them for 6 months or so and none have germinated. I have only lost 2 or 3 so far to fungus and the seeds are still firm (and viable?). I am going to just leave them be for 3 years and keep my fingers crossed that they will grow one day! Good luck with you Pelagodoxa adventures! Update us when yours germinate!

[tropicalb]

My experience so far with Pelagodoxa:

I bought 10 seeds from Jim in February of last year....Put them down in covered tray, germ mix is peat and perlite, on a germ mat set at 80F.

Four quickly rotted from the inside out (the first one rotted in less than two weeks). The ones that rotted were the seed that were "broken" (the outer shell had been cracked open during shipment). One sprouted in approx. 8 months, and quickly dampened off.

It has been a year since they were put down. I still have 5 left that are in good shape, and am hoping to get at least 1 or two plants out of the ten seeds. Keeping my fingers crossed!

Edited February 8, 2009 by tropicalb

[HI-Keaau]

OM Gosh, you all are great, thank you for so much info. I just left the computer for a few hours and poof! a whole team of experts swooped in. It's better than the emergency room! Of course, I've got a few more questions.

Jim, you said: " Pelagodoxa henryana seed are only viable when allowed to fall and then the outer fruit needs to decay until it can be washed off. After the seed dries some the thin shell separates from the seed gradually and can be removed. "

These did naturally fall to the ground so that is good. Is the bumpy stuff I am seeing the "outer fruit" - how do I get it to decay?

Pious: Thanks for the advice to be patient I appreciate it, good to remember. I have heard that someone in our area germinated some in 8 months and that was really fast/ perfect conditions. Sounds like Bo got faster results. I may be looking these little guys in my heated closet for a year or more - move over slippers.... I'll take some pictures to keep you updated.

[fiji jim]

Kathleen,

When I first tried germinating these I had no luck with ones picked from the palm and had left some with their fruit on and some were cleaned.

After doing some internet research I found results of a French Government sponsored project to grow these in large numbers. I think that the project was in Tahiti.

Anyway their research concluded that it was best to use only seed that had fallen naturally from the palm and let the fruit sit until the outer part had softened and was able to be easily removed to leave a clean seed.

It seems to me that they may be like some Cycad seeds that are not ready to germinate when only just ripe or freshly harvested. That is to say that they need some time to finish forming inside into a viable seed.

Also I found that they will rot if temperatures are not kept rather high and constant temps of around 30C or 85 to 90F is best. The quickest time that I have had them sprout was in just a couple of months and they were in soil in bags that were in full sun and covered with black plastic and only watered one time before covering. Temperature under that plastic must have reached more than 100F during the day as most days here are about 30C or high 80's F in the shade. I never used fungicide on any except for some I tried in boxes on heat mats as they started to grow mold but still sprouted and grew OK.

These should be easy in HI as they even grow here in the shade so long as the medium does not stay saturated and they are placed close to the surface or even partly exposed.

Good luck and happy growing.

Jim

[fiji jim]

By the way you can speed up the decay of the outer fruit of the seed by placing them in a plastic bag and allowing to ferment some as that will soften the pulp but I prefer to leave them in the shade in the weather for it to happen naturally as most that I have collected have been on the ground for some time under the palm and are already soft and mushy on the outside and easy to wash clean.

Also it is probably best to leave the thin inner shell in tact if you can as you may damage the seed by removing it.

Jim

[John in Andalucia]

Here's a quick visual of what to expect a few weeks after germination. The shoot takes up growth faster than the radicle at this stage, so allow as much height clearance as depth of soil, if germinating them in enclosed boxes.

[Mandrew968]

is there a float test?

[fiji jim]

cleaned seed should sink

[Mandrew968]

Great. What's the best way to remove the fruit--just wait?

[Stethoscope]

Any updates for seeds here? 

[Pal Meir]

On 8.2.2009, 11:12:59, John in Andalucia said:

Here's a quick visual of what to expect a few weeks after germination. The shoot takes up growth faster than the radicle at this stage, so allow as much height clearance as depth of soil, if germinating them in enclosed boxes.