Licuala elegans

[bgl]

A question was raised in the "Excitement in the Pool House" thread about this name, so (even though I thought I knew the answer) I decided to check out the Kew site (see the Share-a-Site sub-forum). Typed in "Licuala" in the box, and got all the Licuala names. Must be a hundred! And to my surprise, Licuala elegans and Licuala peltata var. sumawongii are BOTH shown as valid names. Clicking on the Google link under the name, will show quite a few photos, and they sure look like the same palm to me!

Seems like we have a "Licuala mystery" (for all of you who are tired of Dypsis mysteries...! ). I have contacted Dr.l Dransfield. I'm hoping he can shed some light on this one.

As a side note, I also clicked on Licuala elegantissima by mistake (in the Kew site), and looked at the photos. I have no idea what an L. elegantissima looks like, but there were photos of a whole bunch of other palms, including one that's reported as "Licuala orbicularis" but it's clearly a pinnate palm!

[John in Andalucia]

Jeff Marcus calls them Licuala elegans whereas RPS sell the seeds as Licuala peltata var. sumawongii. That's how I knew they were the same, though RPS in their description consider the name "elegans" to be erroneous. I don't know whether that is just outdated product text or a difference of opinion.

[Phil]

Bo and John,

I think this is another case of a taxonomist coming along and giving a name later in the game. Nurseries have been growing "Licuala elegans" for 30 years. So, that's what I still call them. I do so because it communicates widely and more people know what you're talking about. Slowly we change, but for now I'll stick with "elegans".

Phil

[bgl]

Phil,

I think there's more to the story than that. If the palm we know as Licuala elegans had been given the new name L. peltata var. sumawongii, then L. elegans would not be shown as a valid name on the Kew site. Unless that's a mistake. The only explanation I can think of is that the "real" L. elegans is a completely different palm.

Bo-Göran

[John Dransfield]

This is quite a straightforward one. Blume described Licuala elegans, a dwarf palm from Sumatra, way back in the mid 19th Century. On balance we think this is probably a synonym of Licuala pumila, again a dwarf palm from west Java, no more than about 50 cm tall. When Watana Sumawong first introduced his wonderful form of Licuala peltata with an entire leaf, it was quickly named informally Licuala elegans, since when I and other taxonomists have repeatedly pointed out that this name is completley inappropriate and incorerct for this Thai palm. It was not until Saw Leng Guan came along and provided a proper validated name that we had a name to use - Licuala peltata var. sumawongii. As far as I know, there are no photos of the real Licuala elegans - in any case it is probably Licuala pumila. So anything you see with a huge entire leaf named Licuala elegans is not, repeat not, and for one more time, not Licuala elegans, but Licuala peltata var. sumawongii. By the way, taxonomists had absolutely nothing to do with the naming of the Thai palm as Licuala elegans. I do not know who was responsible, but it may well have been Watana Sumawong himself. It is sometimes quite frustrating the way these incorrect names continue to persist in usage

I hope this clears up the problem for once and for all!

John

[bgl]

John,

Thanks a lot for the superfast and very clear explanation. I wish the Dypsis mysteries were that easy...! And even though we're so used to (and hooked on) the Internet and e-mails - just think, not that many years ago, using regular mail, it would have taken weeks for this communication to take place!

Bo-Göran

[John in Andalucia]

So the RPS description is quite correct, in saying that L. peltata var. sumawongii - "is sometimes erroneously also called Licuala elegans". I wonder how long seeds of L. peltata var. sumawongii have been on the market? I don't dispute that the nursery growers are growing L. elegans as L. elegans, but when is the mix-up due? I notice that in the extensive archive on the RPS website, out of 43 Licuala species, they list L. peltata var. sumawongii but not L. elegans.

[Davidl]

Thank you John Dransfield for clearing that up. I think that L. peltata var. sumawongii is a nice looking palm and will be glad when mine can take more sun.

[John in Andalucia]

So the RPS description is quite correct, in saying that L. peltata var. sumawongii - "is sometimes erroneously also called Licuala elegans". I wonder how long seeds of L. peltata var. sumawongii have been on the market? I don't dispute that the nursery growers are growing L. elegans as L. elegans, but when is the mix-up due? I notice that in the extensive archive on the RPS website, out of 43 Licuala species, they list L. peltata var. sumawongii but not L. elegans.

I suppose what I mean to say is, where can I buy seeds of Licuala elegans so that I have both?

[bgl]

John,

I don't think you can. Based on Dr. Dransfield's assumption that there are no photos of the true L. elegans, my guess is that this palm is not in cultivation. Plus, apparently, it may be L. pumila anyway...!

Bo-Göran

Edit/addition: after I typed the above decided to go to the Kew link again, and click on L. pumila and the Google link for photos. A few photos there, but some of them certainly look like palms that are going to be taller than 50 cm. Would be interesting to know if the true L. pumila is in cultivation...?

[Jeff in St Pete]

I recently obtained a L. peltata var. sumawongii which I have been erroneously calling Licula elegans.

Thanks for clearing this up!

[Kris]

Lovely topic and my favouriate happens the following of Licuala...

1) Licuala peltata var. sumawongii _ Licuala Elegans.

2) Licuala spinosa

3) Licuala ramsayi

The above 3 are the top most beautiful of the Licuala species..for me.

And by the way how is this term Licuala pronounced ? is it like this 'Like You La' !

Thanks & Love,

Kris

[Phil]

Bo,

I would not disagree with John and he is correct. And, I am well aware of the appropriate name . But, the naming of a species is a means of archiving a name to a particular species so we can all communicate about the same plant. That way we all know what we are talking about. In the nursery trade, when a name has been present for 30 years, it will continue to be used for a while regardless of any name change. Historically, there's lots of examples of this. This will particularly apply in this case as the new and proper name for "elegans" is a hard one for the average person to remember. For the taxonomists, it's a no-brainer. Its straight forward. For someone in the industry, things are a bit different. Slowly over time buyers are educated about the new names. But, I can guarantee you of the next one hundred people looking for this plant at the nursery , 95% will ask for "Licuala elegans". Sott Zona once told me (at the time he was changing V. merrillii to Adonidia m.) that people can call it what they want as long as we're still communicating about the same species. Now a decade later there are more Google hits at this time for Veitchia merrillii than for Adonidia. My point is that here, in the Ivory Towers of correctness, one might be criticized for not using the up-to-date correct name, but in the real world out there different rules apply. A nurseryman has to communicate with his customers. This will change over time. How long will it be? I suspect the answer is when most customers ask for "Licuala peltata var. sumawongii". One could say that "it's the nurseryman's job to educate the buyer about the correct name". And, perhaps this is true to an extent. I think most of us are doing this on this species.

And, in time, we'll get there. But as I stated before, for now I will continue to utilize the commonly accepted name (perhaps with both names) until consumers are educated and remember the current name.

Phil

[bgl]

Phil,

I am fully aware of everything you stated, and I agree. However, as you know (and I'm sure, better than I do), one of the main goals of the IPS is education, and for everybody here to be educated about the correct name of a palm is a good thing. I have no illusions about the L. elegans name (for L. peltata var. sumawongii) going away, but I think it's important for all who frequent PalmTalk to know the background. Which is why I believe John's response was so important and helpful. And certain (incorrect) names are always going to be more troublesome than others. Veitchia/Adonidia merrillii is not likely to cause confusion, while (for instance) the name "Areca" here in Hawaii is a major source of confusion. When I talk with someone, and they refer to the "Areca" palm, I have no idea how much, or little, they might know about palms and if they're referring to the real Areca palms, or Dypsis lutescens, and I always have to ask them!

Bo-Göran

[Kim]

I'm glad to be made aware of the correct name, thanks for posting the question Bo! And thanks to Dr. Dransfield for the clear explanation.

But now I wonder what is plain L. peltata (non-var. sumawongii)? These more complicated names have the unfortunate effect of encouraging the use of common names or other nicknames, which then leads to confusion, as Bo said. I will use the correct name in the interest of clarity, but as Phil says, hardly anyone will know what I'm talking about!

I had a discussion with Mardy about palm names, and how they can change over time. His point of view was that he would not relabel any of his palms with updated names because the labels show what the names were at the time he acquired them. Fair enough.

[Jeff in St Pete]

These different names can be very confusing. This palm was originally introduced to me a few years ago as Licuala peltata var. sumawongii and I called it that name for a long time. Then I started hearing people calling it L. elegans and I figured I must have the name wrong so I started calling it L. elegans which took some time to get used to. Now I will go back to calling it the correct name thanks to Dr Dransfield's explanation!

Oh, and Bo, I do the same thing when someone mentions an "Areca palm". I ask whether they are talking about Areca palms or if they mean Dypsis lutescens. Most times they are referring to Dypsis lutescens. I hate the common name "Areca" for this palm.

[Jeff in St Pete]

Lovely topic and my favouriate happens the following of Licuala...

1) Licuala peltata var. sumawongii _ Licuala Elegans.

2) Licuala spinosa

3) Licuala ramsayi

The above 3 are the top most beautiful of the Licuala species..for me.

And by the way how is this term Licuala pronounced ? is it like this 'Like You La' !

Thanks & Love,

Kris

Hi Kris, I'm not the best at pronouncing palm names, but I think it is pronounced more like "Lih Kwala"

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Shows what a dummy I have been. I always thought that they were two different species. Thanks Bo and Dr.JD.

Jerry

[mnorell]

Has anyone ever established a "damage-point" temp for this species? I have two in containers for a few years now, growing oh-so-slowly, and they sit out in the chill of winter for three months, and I have become brave enough to leave them sitting out through 28/29F freezes under some slight canopy, bringing them in only during the 2-3 colder episodes we experience here in a typical winter. They never show damage, but I'm reticent to try them any lower, even though these delicate beauties seem to be made of steel...anybody ever kill one with cold? I'd be very interested to hear where they're damaged, and where they bite the big one.

[Jeff Searle]

I was told many,many years ago that L. elegans had been changed and the new name was L. peltata Sumawongii. I don't remember who ,how,why or when, just that it had been changed. Thus, I have not used "elegans" I can't remember when.

Old names will continually be used until customers, collectors,etc. are told and corrected. As I grower, if I am asked if I sell Licuala elegans, I politely correct them and tell them this name is no longer used. Here in South Floida, I rarely now have someone ask for "elegans". So, I think it's important when selling this palm, we must use the correct name that's been around for many years.

Jeff

[Walter John]

And by the way how is this term Licuala pronounced ? is it like this 'Like You La' !

Thanks & Love,

Kris

Good on you Kris, most of the palm nuts aren't game to ask. I can tell you what I've come to know and love about palm names, it doesn't matter if you don't get the name pronouced perfectly correct, near enough is good enough, even the experts accept that. So keep your own angle to it, you know what you're talikng about. As for this genus, I have called it a couple of different ways as I went along into palming. "Lik-Kwah-la", "Lick-a-Koala" and I finally settled on "Likwoolah" (I say it fast).

Here's my Licuala ramsayii as a parting gift to you, keep sharing that love and curry Kris.

[bgl]

Kim,

The distinction between L. peltata and L. peltata var. sumawongii is an easy one to remember. Sumawongii has entire leaf blades, while L. peltata ("non sumawongii"!) has divided leaf blades.

Bo-Göran

[Kris]

And by the way how is this term Licuala pronounced ? is it like this 'Like You La' !

Thanks & Love,

Kris

Good on you Kris, most of the palm nuts aren't game to ask. I can tell you what I've come to know and love about palm names, it doesn't matter if you don't get the name pronouced perfectly correct, near enough is good enough, even the experts accept that. So keep your own angle to it, you know what you're talikng about. As for this genus, I have called it a couple of different ways as I went along into palming. "Lik-Kwah-la", "Lick-a-Koala" and I finally settled on "Likwoolah" (I say it fast).

Here's my Licuala ramsayii as a parting gift to you, keep sharing that love and curry Kris.

Dear Wal

Thanks for all the explaination,and your L.Ramasayii is mouth watering.. And by the way curry is ready and kept hot to be served for you..just drop in

Lots of love to you,

Kris

[John Dransfield]

A further comment, mostly in answer to Phil.

There is a world of difference between the case of Adonidia/Veitchia merrillii and Licuala peltata var. sumawongii. In the case of Adonidia merrillii and Veitchia merrillii we are all talking about exactly the same species. There is no ambiguity. It just happens that Adonidia is now recognized as being generically distinct from Veitchia and so Adonidia merrillii is the up-to-date name. We all still know what is meant by Veitchi merrillii. In the case of the two Licuala names, Licuala elegans is a small undergrowth palm from Sumatra that hasn't been seen since the 1850s and Licuala peltata var sumawongii is a totally different palm from southern Thailand. Licuala elegans applied to the latter species is just plain wrong and should be corrected over time - it's already a couple of decades since it was pointed out that the name was incorrect, yet people still go on using the name - not my fault!

[Eric in Orlando]

Thanks Dr. Dransfield for the history of the naming, those stories are always informative and interesting.

Anyone have a photo of an adult L. peltata var. peltata (the form with the divided leaf). It doesn't seem to be grown as much as var. sumawongii. It is also one of the hardier Licuala species and can tolerate brief dips into the upper 20sF under canopy.

Here is a young one growing here;

[Kris]

Dear Eric

Thanks for that lovely visual...like always your visuals are very informative & stunning.And you have a real botanical garden in your place.. And its a privilage for guys like me to interact with experts like you !

Thanks & Love,

Kris

[Kim]

Thanks for the added info, Bo, and the photo, Eric! I suppose I should have looked it up myself, but it's worthwhile having the info posted here for all to see.

[realarch]

Interesting discussion, I think I've got it By Jove.

Tim

[Paul The Palm Doctor!]

Jeff Marcus calls them Licuala elegans whereas RPS sell the seeds as Licuala peltata var. sumawongii. That's how I knew they were the same, though RPS in their description consider the name "elegans" to be erroneous. I don't know whether that is just outdated product text or a difference of opinion.

Is THAT what Jeff is calling L. peltata var. sumawongii. Ahhhh! I didn't realise that! At any rate, I've gotten several from him and they ARE dandies!

Paul

[John in Andalucia]

Jeff Marcus calls them Licuala elegans whereas RPS sell the seeds as Licuala peltata var. sumawongii. That's how I knew they were the same, though RPS in their description consider the name "elegans" to be erroneous. I don't know whether that is just outdated product text or a difference of opinion.

Is THAT what Jeff is calling L. peltata var. sumawongii. Ahhhh! I didn't realise that! At any rate, I've gotten several from him and they ARE dandies!

Paul

From reading this thread, if Jeff alone was growing Licuala elegans, he might as well change his name to Willy Wonka and charge people entry to his nursery.

On a serious note, if L. elegans has not been seen since the 1850's, does it still exist?