Sabal causiarum x palmetto

[kylecawazafla]

Does anyone know if these palms could possibly be Sabal causiarum x palmetto or perhaps a separate species? They are growing next to a much older Sabal causiarum and surrounded by Sabal palmettos. They're very beautiful palms, and gigantic. From what I've heard, they are very fast growers as well. The seeds are somewhat easy to distinguish from Sabal palmetto as well since they are about double the mass.

The first picture is of Sabal palmetto

[kylecawazafla]

Here is the old Sabal causiarum growing next to them

[kylecawazafla]

Now here are the alleged hybrids. These are probably my favorite Sabals in Gainesville. Perhaps if the Sabal causiarum had a smoother trunk it would give these palms a run for their money.

[kylecawazafla]

Here is a crown detail with normal Sabal palmetto in the background.

[kylecawazafla]

Here are three more of the "Sabal palmetoo x causiarum"! There are TONS of seeds beneath these by the way, and they shoot up seedlings everywhere. So if anyone wants some, just PM me.

[FRITO]

Kyle, thanks for the photos. it looks like a hybrid to me. however I dunno if came after those other palms since itself is old and established.

I know Merrill has doccumented the causiarum on UF campus over the years and knows of causiarum x palmetto hybrids. I saved these photos from a past disscussion.

here are two photos of palmetto x causiarum at UF campus. maybe you are familiar with these?

the group on the left in the multi palm photo are the hybrids, the one on the right is not a hybrid.

[kylecawazafla]

Yes, those are the exact same trees in my photographs! I wish yesterday was a sunny day when I photographed them.

[FRITO]

I think these are the same group of palms after looking at them. you are photograpghing from a window?

the photos I posted are the palm not trimmed and the hybrids have much larger crowns and trunks, subtle diffrences to the untrained eye but clearly hybrids.

[gyuseppe]

hello friend kyle.

Merrill Wilcox says that hybrids are sabal palmetto x causarium? ,

if says Merrill, certainly are hybrids.

(sorry my English not good)

[buffy]

Here are three more of the "Sabal palmetoo x causiarum"! There are TONS of seeds beneath these by the way, and they shoot up seedlings everywhere. So if anyone wants some, just PM me.

Looks awesome

Edited February 15, 2009 by buffy

[merrill]

Hi, Kyle:

you certainly took the photos from an interesting angle; honestly wouldn't have recognized them. That S. causiarum, and two like it were there when I came to U. F. in 1960, at which time I wasn't involved with palms. Horticulture students complained bitterly about an S. causiarum that had just been felled by construction workers w/o any authorization. According to the late Noel Lake, Grounds Superintendent in those days, the S. causiarum was essentiall unchanged since 1960 when he and I arrived at U. F. There were originally some eleven of these palms in a row next to a unpaved parking lot; Noel thought most had died from soil compaction.

These hybrids are especially interesting because of their very symmetrical taper. There are a fair number of progeny scattered around in other locations.

Best Wishes,

merrill

[merrill]

deleted

Edited February 16, 2009 by merrill

[Scott Zona]

Kyle,

I remember those large palms next to McCarty Hall, not far from the S. causiarum. They were always a puzzle to me. They may well be some sort of hybrid.

cheers,

Scott

[merrill]

Hi, Scott:

A group of us palm devotees were gaping at these suspected hybrids when you joined us some years ago, and expressed that very same thought.

Hope all is going well with you and yours.

merrill

[gyuseppe]

thank you merrill and scott.

and certainly a hybrid.I like hybrids of palms.

[freakypalmguy]

Thank you for taking the time and effort to send me some seeds Kyle, I greatly appreciate it. They arrived yesterday in perfect condition.

Take care,

Matt

[buffy]

Thanks Kyle: I received mine yesterday. I'll put these on a heat mat soon.

[kylecawazafla]

wow that was fast! I'm really glad they got to you guys so quickly. Let me know how well they germinate!

[FRITO]

Kyle, thanks again, I recieved mine today. if you need anything let me know!

Luke

[kylecawazafla]

wow! That was really fast!! I just put them in the mail at 4 PM yesterday!! I'm glad you got them.

[simona]

Thanks again Kyle, I received mine today!

[buffy]

How's everyone's seeds doing. I have four seedlings cranking along. They're slow as heck right now. My best one is pushing out leaf number two.

Also, isn't it more likely that these are P. causiarum x palmetto versus P. palmetto x causiarum, based on the fact the the hybrids are close to the only P. causiarum?

[gyuseppe]

whatever they are, they were born 7!

[Alicehunter2000]

When I visited Kyle 2 years ago I picked up some of those seeds from the ground.........I only have one that is doing well although still not on its first costopalmate leaf. Thanks Kyle......how's that stuff that I left with you.

[downtownfish]

Kyle, Check out this palm I found. It looks very similar to the hybrids you are posting. I thought it was a domingensis, but It does look alot like the causiarum x palmetto even though there is no causiarum near by that I know of.

There are more pictures on a thread I started if you want to look at more pictures.

[Sergio]

Considering that all the species of the Sabal genus have hermaphroditic flowers and also considering how small is a Sabal flower and how much near are the anthers (pollen producers) and the pistille (pollen receaver) in a flower, I think a true natural hybrid between two Sabal genus species seems to be really impossible!

[Mandrew968]

Considering that all the species of the Sabal genus have hermaphroditic flowers and also considering how small is a Sabal flower and how much near are the anthers (pollen producers) and the pistille (pollen receaver) in a flower, I think a true natural hybrid between two Sabal genus species seems to be really impossible!

Not impossible, it seems, but very unlikely and not seen often at all.

[SouthFLA]

Certain sable varieties hybridize easily. The seed will almost always be influenced by the nearby individuals. Seeds will not be true to the parent if an individual causiarum is surrounded by FL native Sables. I graduated from the University of Florida with a forestry degree and I know exactly where these palms are that you are referring to. A lot of the palms you are looking at in this area could be hybrids - but if you want 'true' causiarum seeds you will need to travel to Puerto Rico where the seeds haven't been contaminated by native FL sables.

Here is a good example: Kampong Botanical Gardens in Miami FL. There is a lone mature Sable causiarum in an obscure part of the garden that probably went without maintenance for a while. The causiarum (largest trunk in the center) dropped seeds but the offspring growing below looks very little like the parent.

[Phoenikakias]

 

On 22/7/2009, 7:49:13, Sergio said:

Considering that all the species of the Sabal genus have hermaphroditic flowers and also considering how small is a Sabal flower and how much near are the anthers (pollen producers) and the pistille (pollen receaver) in a flower, I think a true natural hybrid between two Sabal genus species seems to be really impossible!

 

On 22/1/2014, 3:55:19, Mandrew968 said:

 

Not impossible, it seems, but very unlikely and not seen often at all.

If it is so, why the situation with the hybridization between the two Washingtonia spp goes the other way around?

[Brian F. Austin]

Hybrids are always intriguing. Has anybody here grown out seeds collected from these palms? I'm curious which side of the hybrid the f2 lean towards?

I love the fat trunks on the pure s. causiarum. I was thinking about ordering some of these hybrids. Its like a more robust, prettier palmetto. It looks really good in the full crown photo.

[JLeVert]

Here is S. palmetto x S. causiarum growing in Augusta, GA.  That is a presumption on my part, but the plant fits the description.  It is intermediate in foliage hardiness between the two species, seeds are smaller than palmetto, but larger than causiarum.  Boots on the trunk (mostly removed so that my students would stop climbing the tree) also resemble causiarum.  I bought this in 1990 in Hwy. 441 north of Orlando.  When I described it to Dr. Merrill Wilcox, he felt like it was a hybrid.  He said that my date of purchase was about right for when people were working on the hybridizing in Gainesville.  Really nice palm......whatever it is.

 

[JLeVert]

Another view of it before it had to be moved to the other side of the school for construction purposes.  Notice how acute the angle of the boots is.  Seems like a sharper angle than I see in S. palmetto around here.

 

[Brian F. Austin]

Thanks for sharing the photos. Very cool! The boots do have a nice sharp angle throughout. It seems to be a fairly fast grower too. At what point do the boots naturally fall off sabals to leave a clear trunk? I really like the light colored thick trunks of the pure causiarums. Most of the s. Mexicanas here have really dark trunks.

[JLeVert]

Some of the Sabal boots seem to rot pretty quickly and fall off, while others persist for a long time.  I've seen Borassus boots persist at the bottom of the tree and fall off at the top.  You would think it would be the other way around, since the older boots should rot first.  I know that if a sprinkler hits the boots, they drop much quicker.

Here is a close-up of those boots before we took them off.

[Phoenikakias]

Does the hybrid posess also the characteristic ligules of pure causiarum?

[JLeVert]

It doesn't as best I remember.  But I haven't been up to the top in years.  I also have large causiarum with very prominent ligules.  I'm going to climb a letter and prune that hybrid next week and I'll check the top for ligules.

 

'

[SouthFLA]

Yes, the hybrids have prominent ligules too. I'm not sure if the presence of ligules is the best way to determine the variety because I've found prominent ligules on native FL sables dug from the wild. (I've done work as a landscape inspector for a large FL municipality and I deal with sables a lot) The seed size and shape is a much better indicator of the species.

[buffy]

This is becoming a massive girl. I had it in a three gallon pot until about 5 years ago. It is exploding with growth. It's about 12 feet tall and that wide. The leaf bases show a lot of wax. You can see a little leaf damage from my 8 F freeze last year.

[kylecawazafla]

WOW! Thanks for the update, Buffy! That's a beautiful specimen! Pretty fast too for being from seed in 2009! I'll have to distribute seeds again when I'm back there! 

[buffy]

1 hour ago, kylecawazafla said:

WOW! Thanks for the update, Buffy! That's a beautiful specimen! Pretty fast too for being from seed in 2009! I'll have to distribute seeds again when I'm back there! 

I had it pot constrained in a 3 gallon until I planted it out 5 years ago. I don't know if I've ever seen this speed of growth in a Sabal. This planter had a bunch of green sand. Maybe that helps. Hybrid vigor?