How to tell the difference between

[MattyB]

Can anyone shed some light on how to tell the difference between young date palms and canary date palms? At what age does P. dactylifera show blue green? Pictures and experience would be great. I was given 9 Phoenix sp. and I have no idea what they are. I'll get some updated pics later. Here's a pic of one just after planting about 18 months ago. They are much darker green now I assume from fertilizer. Thanks for the help.

-Matt

[Moose]

The "Carnary Island Date Palm" is the least deep green (almost pea green) of the Phoenix genus. They also have their leaflets in a flat plane. Most found today have been crossed with P. Sylvestris which usually are not held in a flat plane.

I am no expert. However i recall a debate about this about 13 years ago. I believe Ken Johnson was there and he proably has better recollection than I. He dtermined that my carnary island date palm was a cross.

Ken - your input would be welcome!

[MattyB]

I found a more up to date picture if it helps. Leaflets are not held in a flat plane so I guess that suggests P. dactlylifera. But it's green, not the blue color. Also, the leaflets are thin and long, whereas the date palms I've seen have wide and stout leaflets.

[Moose]

I am no Phoenix maven. If you held my feet to the fire and guess, I would say that that juvenile looks to be either a carnary X sylvestris or P. sylvestris. My cross looked similar to your photo in 1989 so my memory may not be that great. I had to enlarge it before I could tell.

Ken Johnson or Ryan (Palmarum) would be a better source for indentifying purposes.

If it is either, it will be more robust than P. dactilfera!

[Musi]

Looks like a P. dactylifera to me.

[palmaddict]

I am no Phoenix maven. If you held my feet to the fire and guess, I would say that that juvenile looks to be either a carnary X sylvestris or P. sylvestris. My cross looked similar to your photo in 1989 so my memory may not be that great. I had to enlarge it before I could tell.

Ken Johnson or Ryan (Palmarum) would be a better source for indentifying purposes.

If it is either, it will be more robust than P. dactilfera!

I happen to have three dactyliferas that are very blue in color. They came from seed collected from a date farm in the California desert. However, I have seen a great deal of color variation in dactylifera with it going from light green to almost blue-silver. I am just happy my ended up being blue as I find that most attractive.

On another note two of the three grow as a single trunk specimen while the third is routinely sprouting siblings at its base. Otherwise they look identical so there must be a genetic variation in a gene controlling offsetting. A fifteen pound digging bar makes quick waste of these offsets as I find a single trunk looks best.

Patrick

[Davidl]

Looks like carnary X sylvestris to me as well. I noticed the fronds have a twist to them and I don't see that in dactylifera. Just a thought.

[_Keith]

I am of the sometimes unpopular decision that there are simply no pure Phoenix out there, but I would say that palm has a strong CIDP influence. Hard to say whatever else is in there.

[sonoranfans]

Looks like a hybrid, not as robust or stout as a CIDP, somewhat planar leaflets are not nearly plumose enough for sylvestris, looks like alot of dactylifera, but dactyliferas are more bluish here. It could be the form is just due to variations in growing conditions, but CIDP have thicker petioles, wider leaflets and more recurve, not so straight. I'd say its some sort of dactylifera hybrid.

[_Keith]

Looks like a hybrid, not as robust or stout as a CIDP, somewhat planar leaflets are not nearly plumose enough for sylvestris, looks like alot of dactylifera, but dactyliferas are more bluish here. It could be the form is just due to variations in growing conditions, but CIDP have thicker petioles, wider leaflets and more recurve, not so straight. I'd say its some sort of dactylifera hybrid.

It does have a resemblance to my young 'sylvestris.' I am just seeing even a hint of that 'sylvestris' winter yellow or the blueishness of the mature foliage. Maybe CIDP x sylvestris?

[Kris]

Dear Matty

To me it appears to be a regular date palm,but not the california type.Since i got few date fruits long back and that friend told me that the parent date palm was green in colour,and the date fruits tasted very sweet.And by the way that date fruits were from Oman.Here is a still of that palm as seen in our garden today.Its around 14 to 16 years old approx !

Here is a still of its Sucker..

Now comming to option 2

Lets say if its a CIDP,then it should be a CIDP Red Fruticas ! i.e Probable cross between a CIDP X Dacty or CIDP X Sylversteris.And here is a visual of a CIDP Red Fruticas growing in our garden..This palm was green initially but now after 2 years its becoming mild silverish,resembling close to a P.Sylversteris with heavy arching fronds ! And here is the visual of that palm.

Since your place is lot cooler than my region,it will take a while to show its true colours...till then patience.

Love,

Kris

[Jonathan]

CIDP definately do not have their leaflets in one plane in my experience (and climate).

Some are a little more plumose than others, but they all seem to have some degree of angle.

Here are pics of a pure dactylifera (grown from a Medjool date imported from California) compared to a CIDP grown from seed collected from a local tree. I know that the CIDP is pure because there are no other Phoenix species growing here in Tasmania, and the parent tree must be 40 or 50 years old....the chance of it being a hybrid is virtually nil.

First the dactylifera, general view:

dactylifera leaf: note wide spacing and alternate staggering of leaflets along the rachis;

the back of the leaflets are also glaucous, despite the plant appearing green.

dactylifera, another view:

CIDP to follow....

[Jonathan]

canariensis, general view (sorry bout the weeds!), I think this photo snuck into my previous post...

Canariensis leaf: notice that the leaflets are more opposite each other along the rachis, and they are generally more crowded.

CIDP another, not very useful view - rabbits attacked this one a bit! Underside of leaflets is pale green.

Hope this helps a bit Matty, yours dosn't quite look like either to me.

They might also vary in habit in different climates, I would think.

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Kris]

Dear Matty

Here is one more still of the same oman date palm,an arieal view of it..i repeat its very green in colour !

Love,

Kris

[Phil]

MattyB,

You lucky dog. Those are the most rare of all species, Phoenix wannasumora, from the West African nation of Camarama. I'd plant them right next to your house for security reasons; I mean within inches, just to make sure no one steals them. In a few years give us a report on how they are doing. Some day you'll get a lot of very valuable seeds for your retirement. You get all the nice stuff.

Phil

[freakypalmguy]

Unless these were imported seeds or trees, the chances are slim that it is crossed with sylvestris, as I don't think there are that many mature sylvestris in Ca.

[MattyB]

Thanks all for your input. Great pics Kris and Jonathan! Phil, very snarky indeed.

[sonoranfans]

Looks like a hybrid, not as robust or stout as a CIDP, somewhat planar leaflets are not nearly plumose enough for sylvestris, looks like alot of dactylifera, but dactyliferas are more bluish here. It could be the form is just due to variations in growing conditions, but CIDP have thicker petioles, wider leaflets and more recurve, not so straight. I'd say its some sort of dactylifera hybrid.

It does have a resemblance to my young 'sylvestris.' I am just seeing even a hint of that 'sylvestris' winter yellow or the blueishness of the mature foliage. Maybe CIDP x sylvestris?

My young sylvestris are very plumose, notably more than other phoenix. Still it could have sylvestris genes.