Cycad cones and flushes

[Tracy]

13 hours ago, Gallop said:

There is alot of confusion in the Ceratozamia complex. There was a name change on what was being grown as Latafolia, they are now chamberlainii. Cz microstobilia is now Latifolia

One of the two below Ceratozamia was acquired as Ceratozamia latifolia, the other as a Ceratozamia latifolia hybrid.  I think I recall the one in the ground was purportedly the hybrid. Both flush a dark brownish red color and both ar females.  The earlier post of the female cone is the same plant in the same pot as below, the photo below with the flush was taken in 2017.  Probably should get it in the ground.  Do either of those look like what is now being called Ceratozamia chamberlainii?  The potted one puts most of its energy into cones and seems to only push a couple of leaves after a new cone is partly emergent today.  I suspect it just needs to get in the ground.  Both of these came from Phil as well back in about 2007 as small band size 1 leafers.

[Gallop]

10 hours ago, Tracy said:

One of the two below Ceratozamia was acquired as Ceratozamia latifolia, the other as a Ceratozamia latifolia hybrid.  I think I recall the one in the ground was purportedly the hybrid. Both flush a dark brownish red color and both ar females.  The earlier post of the female cone is the same plant in the same pot as below, the photo below with the flush was taken in 2017.  Probably should get it in the ground.  Do either of those look like what is now being called Ceratozamia chamberlainii?  The potted one puts most of its energy into cones and seems to only push a couple of leaves after a new cone is partly emergent today.  I suspect it just needs to get in the ground.  Both of these came from Phil as well back in about 2007 as small band size 1 leafers.

Your plants look like chamberlainii. The plant in the ground is definitely not Latifolia. In 2007 Phil would have had Chamberlainni labled as latifolia and latifolia labled as microstrobila. Ceratozamia Latifolia appears to be a lot less common in the trade than chamberlainni. I attached some pictures of chamberlainii. 

[Gallop]

13 hours ago, Tracy said:

The one I acquired as Ceratozamia mexicana was acquired as a band size plant around 2007 or 2008, locally here in Encinitas (Jungle Music - Phil Bergman).  It is a little challenging getting photos of flushes these days due to proximity of other plants, but below are some old photos from 2012 (dark chocolate brown flush with a Ceratozamia robusta in the pot behind it) and another after it went into the ground, from 2017, a little further along in a flush as its color lightens before fading into green tones.  The Ceratozamia robusta was acquired from Phil as well, shortly after the one labeled mexicana and it also flushes the same deep chocolate red to brown color.  The robusta is much more upright with new flushes holding them upright until the flush is replaced with a couple of new flushes and or cones.  Leaflets are also very long on that one as you can see in the post above where I included a photo.

Interesting that they decided to break out the colorful flushing ones into a separate species, any differences in cone or is it mainly the flush color?   ....groupers and dividers, always interesting to hear the latest.  Any dna work used to create the distinction?

Just as a side note, the two plants I acquired as Ceratozamia pacifica both look very similar in leaflets to the one I'm growing as C mexicana but the leaves flushes green on the one labeled C pacifica.  One is a male but without a male Ceratozamia mexicana, I have nothing to compare that C pacifica cone with.  The other one slowed down after putting it in the ground and has never coned.

This is what I have as Ceratozamia mexicana, green emergent. 

Cz pacifica as far as I know has not been named. I had some large plants they didn’t last long in the ground, My winters killed them, not as cold tolerant as some of the othe Ceratozamia, they appear to be more tropical. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Gallop

[Tracy]

17 hours ago, Gallop said:

Edited 16 hours ago by Gallop

It's easy to see that if one were colorblind, it would be very difficult to distinguish between your Ceratozamia mexicana and my Ceratozamia acquired as the same.  Is there any paper on the separation of the bronze/red emergent being separated that can be read.  Just curious to better understand why they separated beyond that the populations are separated and the color difference.  Thanks again.  These photos are from when it was still growing in a pot in my old garden, several years before I planted it in the new garden but in that its a more open space, its easier to get the full sense of the plant.  Eventually my adjacent plants here will allow better viewing of it again.

[Gallop]

It’s confusing, I know of no paper that clearly seperates the plants other than them calling the red/ bronze emergent a different locality type. Often same plants that are found growing in different localities are later restudied and end up being different, separated and given a name. We see this recently in the robusta group ie, Cz osbornei 

If you look at the world list of cycads all the emerging leaves are green, this is also true with some pictures on line describing mexicana. Most experts will also tell you “ now” mexicana is green emergent. One of the mexican cycad authorities is currently working on a book about Mexican Cycads. I recently spoke to him and I’m hope his book may help answer some ?.

Guess well have to see what comes of the ones that flush color. I do know from experience flush color is not exact when it comes to identification. I have green emergent fuscoviridis and red emergent. It’s noted in some colonies that plants flush different colors. However this is not the case with mexican the plants with color are from different localities not within a colony.

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Gallop

[Merlyn]

Here's a nice 8 or 9 leaf Encephalartos Gratus recovery flush.  This defoliated last February around 24-26F and then defoliated again this winter after the 4 day Christmas freeze.  Somewhat ironically the "tender" Whitelockii/Ituriensis/Equatorialis types about 6 feet to the right took only 50% leaf damage.  I'm guessing this plant is only hardy to just under 30F:

[Merlyn]

And here's the first 2-leaf flush from an Encephalartos Gratus x Laurentianus.  This saw lows of 27-28F and took essentially no damage, and the Laurentianus in the upper left corner was also minimally damaged.

[Tracy]

On 3/1/2023 at 9:31 AM, Tracy said:

Encephalartos whitlockii x sclavoi hybrid, I could see this flush beginning to emerge.  I'm hoping it remains slow enough for things to warm up and wind to decrease before these leaves get too tall but still have soft leaflets.  They seem the most vulnerable when they get above the older flushes which can provide a little protection.  Wind reading a little earlier this morning at the beach here was 36 mph with gusts into the mid 40's... enough to do some damage.

Despite a cool, damp and windy March, the flush on my female Encephalartos whitlockii x sclavoi managed to pull through.  It's still pushing a little and leaves are only partially hardened off but hopefully winter is close to done 20 days into Spring.  Flush is sstill a bit yellow and hasn't turned green yet.  What a winter here!  San Diego inner ocean waters just hit a record low ever since record keeping began last week on April 6th, with a reading of 52.2 F for sea surface temperature on the Del Mar inner buoy!  Cool spring temps will continue along the coast when the water remains cold.  It's recovered a few degrees, but still seasonally low.  I want spring weather not winter!!!!

[greysrigging]

The Cycad my son thought was dead and was going to cut it down.... until he saw the new frond flush

[Gallop]

 

Ceratozamia chamberlainii great plant for cold and wet environments. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Gallop

[amh]

I couldn't get the focus to work, but my Ceratozamia aurantiaca is sending up a new leaf.

[Gallop]

On 4/21/2023 at 2:18 PM, amh said:

aurantiaca

One of my seedling Ceratozamia aurantiaca. Good grower so far no issues in my environment. 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Gallop

[Tampa Scott]

My C. revoluta with a 5.5' trunk is throwing a pup on the trunk 2.5' up from ground level.

Is it best to remove or leave? 

[BillAndy]

2 hours ago, Tampa Scott said:

My C. revoluta with a 5.5' trunk is throwing a pup on the trunk 2.5' up from ground level.

Is it best to remove or leave? 

What a great looking trunk, I would like to see the entire plant if you don’t mind posting another picture.  If we are voting, I would say leave it on there. I think removal of a single pup like this one is simply a matter of personal preference. Removing it could open up the mother plant to a possible infection, but would guess the chances of that happening are slim, especially if the wound has a chance to dry out (and if you apply some fungicide just in case).  If you were removing a lot of pups on a regular basis it could negatively impact trunk stability, but that doesn’t seem to be an issue. I’m a mere hobbyist and interested to see what others with more knowledge have to say. 

[Tampa Scott]

Here is the total view of the C. revoluta with trunk adorned naturally with Resurrection Fern (not fully resurrected) with added Neo. Fireball for color.

 

[Merlyn]

I've wondered about this myself, do pups like this end up as aerial branches?  Or do they end up as pups that wither and die because they can't grow roots up in the air?  Or do they grow roots inside the trunk?  I've seen Revoluta that split at the top, but I have only seen one that seemed to grow with side branches.  It turned into a gigantic sprawling monster that was really impressive.  That one is over at Green's Nusery in Apopka.

So my answer to this is...if the pup is in a direction that could turn into a neat side branch I'd leave it.  I have one ~5' trunk Revoluta that's doing this now, and I elected to leave two pups on it, and carefully slice off the others.  I dusted the cuts with sulfur powder to help prevent infection.

[BillAndy]

I came across this beast in my neighborhood and thought it was worth posting simply due to its size. The 1st three pics are of the same plant. It is at least 15’ tall and the trunk is the biggest I’ve seen outside of a book. Some of the pups are sizable too. My best guess is Cycas Thouarsii simply because that is the most common large cycad I’ve seen around here.  However, I haven’t seen one this size and some aspects of it are a little different than the other C. Thouarsii that have been properly ID’d. I’m also posting single pics of a few other C. Thouarsii I’ve seen around town. 
 

[amh]

21 hours ago, Tampa Scott said:

Here is the total view of the C. revoluta with trunk adorned naturally with Resurrection Fern (not fully resurrected) with added Neo. Fireball for color.

 

I have always liked the shaggy look that resurrection ferns give to the trunks of palms and cycads. Did these naturally colonize, or did you place the ferns here?

Edited April 27, 2023 by amh

[Tampa Scott]

On 4/27/2023 at 5:10 PM, amh said:

I have always liked the shaggy look that resurrection ferns give to the trunks of palms and cycads. Did these naturally colonize, or did you place the ferns here?

The resurrection fern naturally colonized the trunk.

[Meangreen94z]

On 4/9/2023 at 5:57 PM, Merlyn said:

And here's the first 2-leaf flush from an Encephalartos Gratus x Laurentianus.  This saw lows of 27-28F and took essentially no damage, and the Laurentianus in the upper left corner was also minimally damaged.

Good to know. Joe of the former NTCHP nursery claimed they were a wimp, mid 20’s at best. He claimed he had better success with kisambo, whitelockii, etc. Of course he was judging based on caudex hardiness, not leaf hardiness. The temperatures he saw defoliated them almost every year. But you are providing good contradictory info.

[Merlyn]

5 hours ago, Meangreen94z said:

Good to know. Joe of the former NTCHP nursery claimed they were a wimp, mid 20’s at best. He claimed he had better success with kisambo, whitelockii, etc. Of course he was judging based on caudex hardiness, not leaf hardiness. The temperatures he saw defoliated them almost every year. But you are providing good contradictory info.

I would generally agree with Joe.  On my April 8th post is a Gratus in the backyard, it defoliated at ~25F in January 2022 and again at ~26.5F in December 2022.  Laurentianus was about the same, generally defoliating at or below 28F even on big ones with 10' fronds.  Whitelockii/Ituriensis/Equatorialis were a lot tougher, only taking 25-50% burn at those temps.  The hybrid Gratus x Laurentianus in the back yard did very well at the same ~25F and ~26.5F, taking only some random cosmetic leaf burn. 

The photo that you quoted from 4/9 is in the front yard, which is 2-3F warmer.  The spot with those cycads is in the warmest area of the yard, and it has a 70' oak about 20 yards to the West.  So that area generally doesn't get frost.  In that area there's a 4" caudex Gratus x Laurentianus (no damage), a 2-3" caudex Gratus (no damage) and a 6" caudex Laurentianus (minimal damage). 

Generally I'd think Gratus and Laurentianus are ok in the upper 20s without frost, and they all have survived repeated defoliation in the 25-26F range.  They are probably the wimpiest of the Encephalartos that I own.  I'd put Kisambo into the same category, and Ferox is a bit tougher.

[Merlyn]

Here's a couple of bizarre alien tentacles reaching up out of the ground....first up is a 2-headed Cycas Bifida (ID uncertain) with the left head flushing and the right head just about to start.  Originally this was one central head, but it got frost-killed and it sprouted two side growing points.  I bought it from John Campbell out NE of Tampa:

And the even more bizarre Cycas Multipinnata, this tentacle is probably 1.5" diameter at the base:

The rope is tied to a gutter and a Queen palm to keep it up off the pathway and prevent it from whipping around too much in hurricanes.

[Scott W]

Cycas panzhihuaensis female, coning for the first time.  Don't have a male, but I just harvested my male Multifrondis...time to hybridize!

 

Ceratozamia hildae male cone...

[Gallop]

A garden walk..

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Gallop

[Scott W]

Cycas Taitungensis male coning.  Had to remove it since it's near the Panzhihuaensis that I'm going to pollinate with Multifrondis and didn't need any natural cross pollination.

[Merlyn]

Here's a beastly flush starting on an unidentified Encephalartos.  I've been calling it Altensteinii, but only because the guy I bought it from called it that.  It has the "kink" at the bottom of the fronds that's common with Manikensis types, and also slightly cupped leaves.  Any ID recommendations?

[Merlyn]

And this is an almost-finished flush on another unidentified Cycad.  I got this as a freebie with one horked-up frond, and it flushed during the hurricanes last summer...and got horked up again!  So this is the first undistorted flush, almost finished now!  I missed whether it was bronze or green emergent, but I think it was light green and just starting to darken now.  Any ideas on an ID?  I have been calling it Ceratozamia Mexicana, but there was some renaming recently and I'm not sure which is which anymore...

[Tracy]

8 hours ago, Merlyn said:

Here's a beastly flush starting on an unidentified Encephalartos.  I've been calling it Altensteinii, but only because the guy I bought it from called it that.  It has the "kink" at the bottom of the fronds that's common with Manikensis types, and also slightly cupped leaves.  Any ID recommendations?

I would believe an id of Encephalartos altensteinii. I got this rooted Encephalartos altenstenii pup and planted it several years ago.  It took a few years to get established but leaflets photos for you to compare. 

[Merlyn]

@Tracyoddly enough I immediately thought yours was Kisambo!  Those three big spikes on the upper edge of the leaf near the rachis are very unique.  Gratus and Kisambo both have that kind of spikiness, but Gratus fronds are probably shorter (up to 6-7 feet) with darker green leaves and more recurved and randomly twisty.  Kisambo tends to be super-straight fronds and leaves (like Whitelockii) with more of a lime-green color.  This came from Neil at the CFPACS meeting, I was asking him how to tell the difference between the two.  Here's the spec illustration for reference:

And this is Neil's Kisambo for reference:

And the median leaflets with the spikes.  This one is in fairly dense shade so it's deep green.

[Tracy]

1 hour ago, Merlyn said:

@Tracyoddly enough I immediately thought yours was Kisambo!  Those three big spikes on the upper edge of the leaf near the rachis are very unique.  Gratus and Kisambo both have that kind of spikiness, but Gratus fronds are probably shorter (up to 6-7 feet) with darker green leaves and more recurved and randomly twisty.  Kisambo tends to be super-straight fronds and leaves (like Whitelockii) with more of a lime-green color.  This came from Neil at the CFPACS meeting, I was asking him how to tell the difference between the two.  Here's the spec illustration for reference:

And this is Neil's Kisambo for reference:

And the median leaflets with the spikes.  This one is in fairly dense shade so it's deep green.

I was just trimming some old brown leaves off my Encephalartos kisambo last night before I took the above photos.  I will compare next time I get over to the rental property and try to take photos since both plants are in that garden. 

[GeneAZ]

On 5/7/2023 at 1:20 PM, Merlyn said:

Here's a beastly flush starting on an unidentified Encephalartos.  I've been calling it Altensteinii, but only because the guy I bought it from called it that.  It has the "kink" at the bottom of the fronds that's common with Manikensis types, and also slightly cupped leaves.  Any ID recommendations?

First impression:  one of the turnerii forms.  Just a guess though.

It may not be a species but a hybrid.

[Merlyn]

13 minutes ago, GeneAZ said:

First impression:  one of the turnerii forms.  Just a guess though.

It may not be a species but a hybrid.

Good point on Turneri, I have a supposed "Boila" form and it didn't even occur to me to look at that!  On a first glance it looks a bit like the Nairoku or Boila forms, but also might be a hybrid in between the local Gratus/Sclavoi/Turneri populations...or even Bubalinus.  I think the last flush was in shade at the grower, so this one in full sun may look a little different.

[Gallop]

[Tracy]

On 5/8/2023 at 11:15 PM, Gallop said:

Cycads in my garden are a bit behind what you are seeing.  It is pretty typical for my garden to be later to start flushing and coning than gardens just a few miles inland that get more heat and earlier heat.  A few different Genus represented below either beginning a flush, cones pushing and in one case waiting for cones to start falling apart to harvest some seeds.

[Tracy]

On 5/8/2023 at 2:07 PM, GeneAZ said:

First impression:  one of the turnerii forms.  Just a guess though.

It may not be a species but a hybrid.

I don't know much about the other forms of Encephalartos turneri, but I typically associate not only the boat shaped leaves but dense packing of leaflets.  The variety of E turneri  I am growing has leaflets so dense as to appear plumose.  The possibility of hybrid as opposed to species is always a possibility.  I would love to share some pollen from this boy for the right female E turneri someday.  The last two photos are from Koko Head Crater Botanical Garden of an Encephalartos turneri. circa 2014, I would imagine it has grown a bit in the intervening years.

[Merlyn]

So apparently I'm a dummy...    In that small area I have a Sclavoi x Ituriensis, Taitungensis x Debaoensis, and three tentatively ID'd ones that I labeled Senticosus/Msinganus, Altensteinii and one I labeled as Manikensis/Turneri.  I mixed up the positions of the Altensteinii and Manikensis/Turneri when I took the picture.  To keep it back on topic here's a flush photo of all of them.  The "Altensteinii" is in the lower left, the Senticosus/Msinganus is benter behind the Yucca, and Manikensis/Turneri in the right foreground.  A Whitelockii hulks over them from behind:

Here's the "Altensteinii" flush, with a bit of leaf damage over the winter:

And here's the "Manikensis/Turneri" flush going nuts!  It isn't too obvious from the photos, but the leaflets are pretty cupped. 

[Navarro]

3 hours ago, Merlyn said:

Así que aparentemente soy un maniquí...    En esa pequeña área tengo un Sclavoi x Ituriensis, Taitungensis x Debaoensis, y tres tentativamente identificados que etiqueté como Senticosus/Msinganus, Altensteinii y uno que etiqueté como Manikensis/Turneri. Confundí las posiciones de Altensteinii y Manikensis/Turneri cuando tomé la foto. Para mantenerlo en el tema, aquí hay una foto al ras de todos ellos. El "Altensteinii" está abajo a la izquierda, el Senticosus/Msinganus está doblado detrás de Yucca y Manikensis/Turneri en primer plano a la derecha. Un Whitelockii se cierne sobre ellos por detrás:

Aquí está el rubor "Altensteinii", con un poco de daño en las hojas durante el invierno:

¡Y aquí está el color "Manikensis/Turneri" volviéndose loco! No es demasiado obvio en las fotos, pero los folletos están bastante ahuecados. 

Me gustaría ver ese taitunguensis x debaoensis ,es seguramente más interesante una madre taitunguensis que una madre revoluta 

[Merlyn]

@Navarrothe Tait x Deb (likely Tait x Multifrondis) are both still small, so they probably look pretty similar to a Rev x Deb at this point.  It may be several more years before I can say that there's a significant difference.  I will say that the backyard one has grown pretty fast, probably faster than the other couple of Rev x Debs.  This flush finished a couple of weeks ago on Tait x Deb:

The one to the upper left is an Encephalartos Gratus x Laurentianus, another very cool hybrid.  Here is a Rev x Deb that's recently finished a 4 leaf flush:

[amh]

2 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@Navarrothe Tait x Deb (likely Tait x Multifrondis) are both still small, so they probably look pretty similar to a Rev x Deb at this point.  It may be several more years before I can say that there's a significant difference.  I will say that the backyard one has grown pretty fast, probably faster than the other couple of Rev x Debs.  This flush finished a couple of weeks ago on Tait x Deb:

The one to the upper left is an Encephalartos Gratus x Laurentianus, another very cool hybrid.  Here is a Rev x Deb that's recently finished a 4 leaf flush:

How's the color on the Tait x Deb, is it still more of a lime green or has it become more of the standard green?

[Merlyn]

2 hours ago, amh said:

How's the color on the Tait x Deb, is it still more of a lime green or has it become more of the standard green?

Once they rooted in, the flushes come out a lime green and then turn standard medium-dark green after hardening off.  Pretty much all the hybrids (Panz x Deb, Rev x Deb, Tait x Deb) are similar in color to the Deb/Multifrondis/Micholitzii/Multipinnata group.  They are all maybe a bit lighter green than a full sun Revoluta.  But that's honestly splitting hairs.  Of course "blue" cycads here in swampy, rainy Floriduh never get that super blue coloring.  They are a bluish green...but still predominately green.