Chambeyronia lepidota

[John in Andalucia]

John, not sure, but to me it looks merely like the environmental growing differences. Keep in mind, mine sat in that closed terrarium tub the whole time. Since I watered them like twice, I used bottled water and watered sparingly. It was probably 90%+ humidity in there, but not generally over 80F, so I think all contributed to good growth. Hasn't yours been outside? With the resultant swings in temp and humidity?

Len, yep the other is still in the pot in the terrarium. They both are actually growing about the same. I might say the pictured one is 5-10% faster/bigger...

Bill you're forgetting this came from Floribunda just a couple of months ago, and looks no different now from when it arrived (except for a new spear emerging). So who has Floribunda seedlings and who grew theirs from RPS seed? Big50 - those are impressive. Are they grown from RPS seed?

[LJG]

Here are mine,are in my shadehouse with 50% shade.

Regards.

Very nice job. Those are all Chambeyronia lepidota? What is your mix ratio? Watering schedule? I have a hard time keeping more then 2 - 3 good leaves on mine. I either get fungus or brown tipping.

I will say that these are faster then I thought they would be. I got mine about a year ago and they are all pushing their 6th leaf. The first two shot out fast, then things slowed. Now that the roots are established, they have been steady even through winter in my greenhouse. They are not the slowest Newcal plant, that's for sure. It almost seems like this plant will have the same problems in a Mediterranean climate as Actinokentia divaricata. Actinokentia divaricata seems to grow a pretty steady rate in more tropical areas or in a greenhouse. Once planted outside, these push at BEST 1 leaf a year in SoCal.

[richnorm]

Is that a seed in the third shot? Could it be the elipsoid form? Those plants seem awfully big to have come from the RPS seeds that were available last year. And, it is hard to reconcile the development with the growth rate of that specimen above and ones I have seen here with maybe 15 years on the clock. They are certainly a credit to the grower. Maybe they do prefer heat, like Houailous.

[John in Andalucia]

I'm posting mine again so everyone can compare it to the above shots. This is a Floribunda C. lepidota professionally grown in "palm heaven". I keep it under 45% shade cloth, and the appearance hasn't changed since it arrived here a couple of months ago. I'm guessing it's about 8 months old? It looks to be a completely different beast to the seedlings in the above shots, with none of the classic Chambeyronia "amberness" in the leaf stems, and green like a Kentiopsis!

[BS Man about Palms]

Roberto- Very impressive!!

But yet they almost look different than mine by an order, another order or two than Johns... I wonder its the different types we are seeing.

I know mine has its "namesake" very visible (lepidia- I think its called) on the leaves and ribs..

[richnorm]

Mine turned out to be the low elevation /half ellipse form contrary to what I was told originally. Palms of the South West Pacific has a drawing of a lepidota seed which matches the half ellipse form. My plants are like John's. The only colour has been a little red in the emerging leaves which soon fades. There are no scales or hairs and the colour is a uniform green all over. They are rather dainty for a Chambeyronia, even allowing for the smaller seed. My seed arrived on 12 June 2009 and the biggest plant is opening its third leaf. My plants were grown mostly in the shadehouse but are in my living room for the Winter, save for one guinea pig.

I understand that C. macrocarpa may grow alongside C. lepidota on Mt Panie. Perhaps the High elevation form is showing a little hybrid vigour?

[Big50]

I think i was the first to receive the seeds from RPS(29-09-2008),buy them before putting them on the web.

LJG,yes are all c. lepidota, i use 50% volcanic rock,mulch and coco peat,for these species from islands i think the main thing is volcanic rock,but i always trying new mixtures.

I agree with you in terms of growth,are faster than i expected,just open a new leaf another coming out,the leaves are quite rigid and unlike of normal chambeyronia and houailous the leaves are not an experienced sunburn incide my sahdehouse.

richnorm,i think the ideal climate for lepidotas is fresh subtropical away from high temperatures,I think because of this my lepidotas are well,i live at an altitude of about 500msnm,very fresh temps bud free frost.

Now that the temperatures begin to climb and noticed something slower,have to wait a little more to confirm this.

Sorry for my bad english and tried to use the translator.

Good luck.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Big50

[richnorm]

Many thanks Roberto. Your English is excellent, I think that I understand exactly how you are growing these and it is very helpful. Do you remember if those were the high altitude form? The high altitude form has an egg shaped seed while the low altitude form has a half-egg shaped seed. It's hard to tell from that photo with the mesocarp in place. Did you notice any softness at one end of the fruit?

cheers

Richard

Edited June 10, 2010 by richnorm

[Tyrone]

I think i was the first to receive the seeds from RPS(29-09-2008),buy them before putting them on the web.

LJG,yes are all c. lepidota, i use 50% volcanic rock,mulch and coco peat,for these species from islands i think the main thing is volcanic rock,but i always trying new mixtures.

I agree with you in terms of growth,are faster than i expected,just open a new leaf another coming out,the leaves are quite rigid and unlike of normal chambeyronia and houailous the leaves are not an experienced sunburn incide my sahdehouse.

richnorm,i think the ideal climate for lepidotas is fresh subtropical away from high temperatures,I think because of this my lepidotas are well,i live at an altitude of about 500msnm,very fresh temps bud free frost.

Now that the temperatures begin to climb and noticed something slower,have to wait a little more to confirm this.

Sorry for my bad english and tried to use the translator.

Good luck.

Roberto, I bought mine from the same batch, before they were posted on the web at RPS. Toby said they are the high altitude form. Mine have not done as well as yours. I had mine in 2 com pots and potted them individually back in March when it was still hot. Some didn't like the move. Also they got a bit of bore water on them and they hated that. So I've lost a few, and I still have most of them kicking on, but they don't look as great as yours. Portugal's summer temps may be a bit cooler than mine. They've always been in fullshade though, and never in my tunnel house as it's way too hot in summer in there I think.

Best regards

Tyrone

[richnorm]

Tyrone,

Do your seedlings look like John's? Any chance of a picture? Can you verify the seed shape?

cheers

Richard

[Tyrone]

Yes, they're identical. Seed shape is the same. Will get a picture when I get some time. Roberto's are better grown than mine.

Best regards

Tyrone

[richnorm]

Yes, they're identical. Seed shape is the same. Will get a picture when I get some time. Roberto's are better grown than mine.

Best regards

Tyrone

Sorry to labour the point but, did you strip away all the fibres to reveal the seed in all its naked glory? The fruit look very similar... See pictures of cut seed above. One has an egg shaped endosperm and the other is very unusual. I'm still unclear which you have!

What I am trying to clarify is whether the two seed types yield entirely different looking seedlings with very different initial growth habits. I was told mine were high altitude but when I stripped a few of the seeds they were the half ellipse form and the seedlings look like John's. If your seedlings also look like John's then maybe you too have this form. Both types were available at the same time. Roberto's beautiful seedlings appear entirely different and I would be surprised if it is a cultivational issue on such young plants.

cheers R

[Tyrone]

I didn't have the half ellipse form of seed. My seeds were clean when they arrived, due to our quarantine. They of course did have fibre on them. They were from Roberto's batch. When I split the com pot up, there were some empty seed shells left and none were of the half ellipse. They were all full just like macrocarpa. I remember when someone posted a picture of the half ellipse seeds and I thought they looked weird. My seed were "full" under the fibre if you know what I mean.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Tyrone]

Here are my best two seedlings. Not as good as Roberto's robust colourful specimens.

Best regards

Tyrone

[richnorm]

Here are my best two seedlings. Not as good as Roberto's robust colourful specimens.

Best regards

Tyrone

Thanks Tyrone, possibly a little more robust than the low/mid altitude form but clearly nothing like Roberto's. He must be a star grower! My high altitude form should arrive in the next week or so though have probably fossilised by now!

cheers

Richard

[Tyrone]

Yes, Roberto is doing something really right or has a climate more suited than mine. I'm going to check out his climate stats to see what I can learn here. Are you getting seeds or seedlings of the high altitude form?

Best regards

Tyrone

[richnorm]

Here are my best two seedlings. Not as good as Roberto's robust colourful specimens.

Best regards

Tyrone

Thanks Tyrone, possibly a little more robust than the low/mid altitude form but clearly nothing like Roberto's. He must be a star grower! My high altitude form should arrive in the next week or so though have probably fossilised by now!

cheers

Richard

Second thoughts, those are quite different when you click on the image to get the larger version. I seldom do this given our 1960's phone system but couldn't resist in this instance. Well worth getting both forms I suggest. I am hoping to get seeds (still got to get through customs.....ahhhh)

cheers

R

[Tyrone]

I have ADSL2 and it takes one second for the picture to load. Dialup would be painful. Do you mean they are more robust than you thought?

A little note on germination. I split my seeds for 3 different people and we all used different germination techniques. I got my seed in Oct 08 and got some free draining potting mix and mixed it with some well rotted black compost from under my Eucalyptus and put the seed just under the surface. I then just put the pot in the deep shade near a sprinkler and left it there for a few months using ambient heat. I think I had seeds sprouting after 2 or 3 months in the summer. I got 27 out of 43 seeds. The other person got the seed at the same time but put them in his tunnel house. His seeds came up quicker than mine and grew quicker initially, but by the end of summer his were smaller and he'd lost a few to rot. I think he got his too hot. My other friend put the seed on his heatmat at 30C and had zero germination. Of the three I had the best germination and initially I didn't lose any. When I repotted I lost some and I think our summer was quite long winded for them and it was at the end of summer beginning of autumn they were showing signs of stress. I may have to create an evaporative air conditioner for my greenhouse for some of these species now.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Tyrone]

I found the climate averages for Madeira Portugal, and as I expected they are much milder in summer than Perth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeira#Climate

I think that is my issue with lack of robustness compared to Roberto's. Both locations are roughly the same distance from the equator, but Madeira has less extremes, and being oceanic possibly more constant and less fluctuation in humidity. Minimums aren't that much different during the summer for our two locations although the winters seem beautiful and mild in Madeira. Perth is much hotter in summer during the day. I think this is one species to grow in dense shade here in Perth with some form of humidity enhancer. What a great climate in Madeira. I wonder if anyone's growing coconuts there????? Most of the New Caledonian stuff would love Madeira. I'd even try a Dictyocaryum in Madeira.

Best regards

Tyrone

[richnorm]

Yes, more robust but wouldn't die in the trenches over it at such an early stage. It would be interesting to hear what others think.

If Madeira's warmest areas have a 20c+ year round average then Roberto must be sitting at maybe 16.5c at 500m. I think Auckland is close to 16c. Much drier there though! I left one seedling from 10 outside and it is the best of the 10 though all look pretty good. I take this to mean they like high humidity. Winter is just getting going now...

cheers

R

Edited June 14, 2010 by richnorm

[Tyrone]

Winter is just getting going now here too. Maybe I should leave these out in the rain instead of under my patio. We average between 18-19C overall depending on the year.

Best regards

Tyrone

[BS Man about Palms]

A living one is a good one Tyrone. Yours look fine.

[Matt in SD]

Len,

6th leaf??!! Mine was outside since I got it and it's only 1/2 way done with the 2nd leaf (and the 2nd I got died a few weeks ago). I had them in the greenhouse for a month or two, but they didn't look too happy so I took them out.

Big50, that's very impressive. Those will be worth a fortune if they keep growing like that.

Matt

[Tyrone]

A living one is a good one Tyrone. Yours look fine.

Thanks mate. Maybe I'm being too hard on myself.

Best regards

Tyrone

[LJG]

Len,

6th leaf??!! Mine was outside since I got it and it's only 1/2 way done with the 2nd leaf (and the 2nd I got died a few weeks ago). I had them in the greenhouse for a month or two, but they didn't look too happy so I took them out.

Big50, that's very impressive. Those will be worth a fortune if they keep growing like that.

Matt

Matt, I got mine over a year ago from Marcus before they were on his list. He basically sent me 5 spikes. The first two leafs came out fast then things stopped. I figured once they didn't need the seed nutrients anymore, they just slowed like we expect. But I started experimenting and man what a few degrees change can make. In winter I need to put them on my shelves in my greenhouse and get more light and circulation to them. They grow steady through winter (but remember my GH is heated to 50 degrees in winter). Once temps start hitting the 90s in the GH, time to move them to the floor. If I do not, they stop growing. 4 of the 5 are pushing their 6th leaf. The fifth has a fungus and is outside where it now just crawls. Here are some pics of one. You can see three leaves and the fourth pushing. You can also see the dead leaf base of the second leaf and the first leaf base was removed a while back as it fell off to expose some nice color.

My issue I have is with fungus. NewCal stuff just prefers fungus in my greenhouse. And once it gets it, it is usually a death sentence. I have lost some nice stuff lately to the fungus.

[richnorm]

[LJG]

Len,

Do you know if these are the high or low form? I guess you would have mentioned it if you knew.

cheers

Richard

I wish I knew. Trust me, I have been following this thread closely in hopes of finding out.

[Matt in SD]

Len, I got mine at the same time. I asked Jeff whether he knew if they were high or low form just a few weeks ago and he didn't know. I think they are the high elevation form though...but can't remember how I came to that conclusion. I would assume they are whatever seed Toby (RPS) got first.

Yours look great.

Matt

[BS Man about Palms]

Mine are opening their 4th leaf. I'm happy with that. so far.

[LJG]

Len, I got mine at the same time. I asked Jeff whether he knew if they were high or low form just a few weeks ago and he didn't know. I think they are the high elevation form though...but can't remember how I came to that conclusion. I would assume they are whatever seed Toby (RPS) got first.

Yours look great.

Matt

Thanks Matt. I figured as much from reading here but am not 100% sure either. I really cannot imagine these plants being the same form that went around years ago that a few have in gardens (like Ralph and Dennis). If they keep growing at this rate, we should get 3 - 4 leaves a year in good conditions. That is faster then many of my other New Cal plants.

[BS Man about Palms]

By the way Len, glad to see you post some pics are you up to about 20 now?

[BS Man about Palms]

Len, I got mine at the same time. I asked Jeff whether he knew if they were high or low form just a few weeks ago and he didn't know. I think they are the high elevation form though...but can't remember how I came to that conclusion. I would assume they are whatever seed Toby (RPS) got first.

Yours look great.

Matt

Thanks Matt. I figured as much from reading here but am not 100% sure either. I really cannot imagine these plants being the same form that went around years ago that a few have in gardens (like Ralph and Dennis). If they keep growing at this rate, we should get 3 - 4 leaves a year in good conditions. That is faster then many of my other New Cal plants.

Just an aside here. I was reading some old New Cal info in an old So Cal journal and I think Don Hodel was saying that Chamb. lepidota is easily mistaken for Basselinia velutina.

I wonder....

[richnorm]

Len, I got mine at the same time. I asked Jeff whether he knew if they were high or low form just a few weeks ago and he didn't know. I think they are the high elevation form though...but can't remember how I came to that conclusion. I would assume they are whatever seed Toby (RPS) got first.

Yours look great.

Matt

Thanks Matt. I figured as much from reading here but am not 100% sure either. I really cannot imagine these plants being the same form that went around years ago that a few have in gardens (like Ralph and Dennis). If they keep growing at this rate, we should get 3 - 4 leaves a year in good conditions. That is faster then many of my other New Cal plants.

Just an aside here. I was reading some old New Cal info in an old So Cal journal and I think Don Hodel was saying that Chamb. lepidota is easily mistaken for Basselinia velutina.

I wonder....

Interesting thought. Presumably it would be the high altitude form as the low altitude form seed matches text book descriptions for lepidota. Also the high altitude ones appear (this is total guesswork and speculation of course) to be much faster. Does Basselinia velutina occur at high elevation on Mt Paine? I don't have any reference material on seed size etc but will try to find out.

[richnorm]

This is Basselinia velutina taken at 1180m on Mt Panie!!!

I couldn't find any seed/fruit details on the web other than that they are black when ripe. From the picture the fruit appear quite large though.

Good spot Bill.

[Tyrone]

Just had a look at "The Palms of New Caledonia" and yes B velutina does grow on Mt Panie, but it has small round fruits 11 x 9mm. It's not that one then.

From the info we're compiling so far it appears that the growth of this species is greatly dependent on the temperature. Maybe this effects seed shape etc as well as robustness. The low elevation form is strictly an understory plant in habitat, whereas the high altitude form is out in full sun. I think this is all to do with temperature. Seeds that fall into the full sun position at low elevation just won't thrive and maybe die, and too high in elevation in the shade is just too cool to grow. I reckon that's why we're seeing different things due to temperature differences. I think this species has a narrow window for optimum growth.

Best regards

Tyrone

[richnorm]

Just had a look at "The Palms of New Caledonia" and yes B velutina does grow on Mt Panie, but it has small round fruits 11 x 9mm. It's not that one then.

How definitive would it be reasonable to expect those quoted seed sizes to be? I would tend to view them as a rough guide for typical values rather than precise bounds. There's a lot of variability in nature. Those seeds above look to be about 20mm (when fully cleaned of fibre) so not that far out of the range for a highly obscure and presumably little studied palm. The high altitude seeds don't fit the textbook description for lepidota...

[Tyrone]

There's a picture in the book of B velutina seeds and they're totally different to what I got as C lepidota. BUT, maybe B velutina is variable too as you say. B velutina grows from 400- 1620m asl, the same altitudinal range as C lepidota. The Palms of New Caledonia quotes the C lepidota seeds to be 2.5-3.4cm long. C macrocarpa is 3.8-5cm long.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Tyrone]

This is what the" Palms of New Caledonia" says in this regard.

" C lepidota may be difficult to distinguish from the form of Basselinia velutina on Mt Panie. B velutina differs in the pale green leaves, pinnae lacking marginal nerves, crownshaft with short, uniform, grayish indument, and small black rounded fruits"

Best regards

Tyrone

[BS Man about Palms]

Any old time growers out there have what came in as B. velutina? Actually I think I heard/read that Jeff Marcus had one/some.

[BS Man about Palms]

Disregard, see next page.

(Oh yes, thanks Rich)