Caryota maxima 'Himalaya' ?

[harrygermany]

Hello,

as we have members with "Caryota" in their name in this forum, I will dare to post an article that I already similarly posted in another forum.

I have seen a palm tree in Nepal, exactly looking like the one here, that seems to be a bit different from other Caryotas.

* This Caryota grows high. The one I saw was about 65-70 feet.

* This Caryota germinates with one long root first, and after 3 month the green part of the germ appears.

* This Caryota seems not to be monocarpic like the others. The tree that I know flowers and fruits every year since at least 20 years. It still looks strong and healthy.

My question is: Who knows something, even a little bit, about that Caryota?

The name Caryota maxima 'Himalaya' does not seem to be an official one. But what else is that?

Hoping for your help.

Harry

[harrygermany]

An additional information:

Unfortunately I didn't take a photo of the Nepalese Caryota. But I asked some people over there to take pics and send them to me.

Last fall when I was there, I took some seeds with me back home.

This is the little Caryota baby of a giant Caryota mom.

Harry

[Caryota_gigas]

There is a lot of confusion surrounding Caryota, and a full genus study needs to be done to finalise some of the many Caryota sp. "......." out there. And a Caryota that has been fruiting for more than 20 years... that just confuses things more!!! I would love to see a pic of that plant.

* This Caryota grows high. The one I saw was about 65-70 feet. Many are very tall indeed, reaching to 100 feet.

* This Caryota germinates with one long root first, and after 3 month the green part of the germ appears. They all do this.

Cheers.

[metalfan]

Well, I have a Caryota 'Himalaya' in my collection. I got it from Tank (thanks dude!) and its growing very well. Its not huge YET but when it is it will be too tall for my greenhouse. Hopefully I will be dead by then though and won;t have to deal with it (maybe 20 years?) but I don't know its a pretty quick grower. I wish I knew the difference between all the Caryotas but I dn't...but I could take a photo of my small one if you'd like to see it. Its about 7-8 ft tall at present

[FRITO]

this is one palm I want to try. if it can take snow and down to 19 degrees.

I will monitor this topic, sorry I dont have anything to add.

[Alberto]

this is one palm I want to try. if it can take snow and down to 19 degrees.

I will monitor this topic, sorry I dont have anything to add.

Maybe they survive that 19F but probably totally defoliated.............. Mine palms burn badly every winter with every radiational freeze and with temperatures above 0´Celsius!

[Alberto]

this is one palm I want to try. if it can take snow and down to 19 degrees.

I will monitor this topic, sorry I dont have anything to add.

Maybe they survive that 19F but probably totally defoliated.............. Mine palms burn badly every winter with every radiational freeze and with temperatures above 0´Celsius!

[SubTropicRay]

Without the "Himalayan" subspecies name, Caryota maxima is a valid name.

[turfpro01]

I germinated 100 seeds from RPS, Id have to count but got 75% to go and stuck them in a cold frame in the middle of winter with temps down to 35 and only lost 5, now they have been taking 100 plus days and sending out there first leaves, Very strong palm tree.

[plamfrong]

In addition to Caryota maxima 'Himalaya', which seems to be available rather regularly, RPS has sold, in the past, seed of at least two other Caryotas from the Himalayas. One they called Caryota sp. 'Mystery', supposedly a smaller clustering plant, and the other was Caryota sp. 'Solitare', a single trunked plant with (apparently from the picture) a much flatter crown with narrower leaflets than those of C. maxima. I'd really like to know if anyone has grown these plants and how they have developed. I'd also like to know if there are any recent developments regarding their taxonomy, and why they haven't been offered again. I have to wonder if Caryota sp. 'Mystery' isn't just C. maxima growing on the limit of its hardiness and resprouting from having frozen to the ground occasionally. Maybe that's not possible though; I don't know.

Also I had thought Caryotas always had monocarpic stems, dying after flowering so if you found one that didn't it would really be exceptional.

I've never heard any real evidence backing up the RPS -7C claim. Most likely they took a guess based on the conditions it endures in the wild and were overly optimistic. (Same for Plectocomia himalayana) I've heard from a number of people who have tried it that serious damage starts around 28-30F... maybe it could go a bit lower than that if well established. Come to think of it I thought I heard of a mature one living through 20F in California a long time ago, but I don't remember the details of that story. Something about Dave Barry. Sorry if I'm not making sense but maybe that will ring a bell for someone.

Edited July 8, 2009 by plamfrong

[richnorm]

In addition to Caryota maxima 'Himalaya', which seems to be available rather regularly, RPS has sold, in the past, seed of at least two other Caryotas from the Himalayas. One they called Caryota sp. 'Mystery', supposedly a smaller clustering plant, and the other was Caryota sp. 'Solitare', a single trunked plant with (apparently from the picture) a much flatter crown with narrower leaflets than those of C. maxima. I'd really like to know if anyone has grown these plants and how they have developed. I'd also like to know if there are any recent developments regarding their taxonomy, and why they haven't been offered again. I have to wonder if Caryota sp. 'Mystery' isn't just C. maxima growing on the limit of its hardiness and resprouting from having frozen to the ground occasionally. Maybe that's not possible though; I don't know.

Most of them look the same to me (as least as yougsters) and all are initially very slow from seed! However I can add a little from my experiences.

Mystery seems not to clump for us. I don't find it very appealing yet.

Solitaire does have a distinct look to it from a young plant and I'm glad to have one.

I think maxima himalaya is quite different visually to maxima as an adult but is a beautiful graceful palm.

cheers

Richard

[harrygermany]

Hello,

thanks for helping me with Caryota.

On palm trees I am a newbie, and this was the first time that I grew Caryota.

But the monocarpic thing seems to be at least slightly different from what I read in internet.

This Caryota, whatever kind it might be, was and is not dying away during the blooming and fruiting period every year. It flowers and fruits since minimum 20 years, every year again. And still looks very healthy and strong.

I read that Caryotas fade away over some years while blooming and fruiting, and finally die.

But do they do that during 20 years, having new flowers every year?

The taxonomic confusion with Caryota seems to be bigger than I thought. So the name plate on the pot of my Caryota baby has to wait.

Harry

[Caryota_gigas]

My experiences;

Caryota maxima "himalaya" - around 5 foot tall -Maybe dead, frost has severley damaged it. It has been damaged more than any other Caryota on my property.

C. gigas (C. obtusa) - Normally takes frost very well, but this year has been exceptionally bad so far and even though it is now rather large it has been burnt badly. Both small and large specimens in different parts of the garden damaged

C. ochlandra - Has probably come through the best of those exposed to frost at my place, both small and 5m plants.

C. sp. "Mystery clumper" - 2 around 5 metres looking the worst they have ever looked from frost. Small one under cover is fine. This palm does not clump.

C. mitis - Under a bit of cover from a large yucca and Strelitzia - doing fine.

C. monostachya - amongst bamboo - fine.

C. sp. "solitaire" - Doing quite well as a 5 foot specimen, on par with C. ochlandra

These are just my experiences. I have never lost a Caryota in-ground to cold... yet. The C. maxima "himalaya" looks very sad though. None of the palms in this garden have seen below -3.5°C (26°F).

I doubt any Caryota could handle -7° (19°F) for any period longer than an hour or two. Any longer and they would be surely be badly damaged and possibly survive, but never look good, and not classifiable as truely cold hardy.

[Caryota_gigas]

Hello,

But the monocarpic thing seems to be at least slightly different from what I read in internet.

This Caryota, whatever kind it might be, was and is not dying away during the blooming and fruiting period every year. It flowers and fruits since minimum 20 years, every year again. And still looks very healthy and strong.

I read that Caryotas fade away over some years while blooming and fruiting, and finally die.

But do they do that during 20 years, having new flowers every year?

The taxonomic confusion with Caryota seems to be bigger than I thought. So the name plate on the pot of my Caryota baby has to wait.

Harry

This Caryota you talk of, where does it flower from? Is it always from the crown/top? Or are the inflorescences slowly working their way down the trunk with each successive flowering over the years?

[tank]

Well, I have a Caryota 'Himalaya' in my collection. I got it from Tank (thanks dude!) and its growing very well. Its not huge YET but when it is it will be too tall for my greenhouse. Hopefully I will be dead by then though and won;t have to deal with it (maybe 20 years?) but I don't know its a pretty quick grower. I wish I knew the difference between all the Caryotas but I dn't...but I could take a photo of my small one if you'd like to see it. Its about 7-8 ft tall at present

Gina,

You won't be dead when this one outgrows your greenhouse, you'll only be a few years older. Your plant will start putting up some major growth in the next couple years if it is happy. Hope you're doing well.

[tank]

this is one palm I want to try. if it can take snow and down to 19 degrees.

I will monitor this topic, sorry I dont have anything to add.

Maybe they survive that 19F but probably totally defoliated.............. Mine palms burn badly every winter with every radiational freeze and with temperatures above 0´Celsius!

Definitely won't take 19F, although mine took 25F without blinking, and then the next year it got down to around 20F and now its in the compost pile. The batch that I grew from seed does not seem to be too bothered by temps in the upper 20Fs here in North Florida.

[AggiePalms]

A few years ago in my palm infancy I purchased a "Caryota Himalaya" through the SE Palm Society. It is in the ground with a trunk of 3.5 m. Usually it gets some leaf burn from freezes around -1 to -2 C. This winter, however, I had to wrap the trunk in pink insulation due to it getting down to -5 C, and staying that way for several nights. It does have a bit of live oak protection. It totally defoliated, but was back growing again by April. So far no inflorences to check whether it is monorcarpic, or seed viability.

[harrygermany]

Hello Caryota_gigas,

This Caryota you talk of, where does it flower from? Is it always from the crown/top? Or are the inflorescences slowly working their way down the trunk with each successive flowering over the years?

that is something that I do not know.

Until three years ago I did not care about palms at all.

So I saw that Caryota when I arrived in Nepal, but did not remember whether the inflorescences/stalks went a bit more down since last year or not.

From last year I know that the stalks were fixed about 30-35 feet high on the stem.

Harry

[Caryota_gigas]

Hello Caryota_gigas,

This Caryota you talk of, where does it flower from? Is it always from the crown/top? Or are the inflorescences slowly working their way down the trunk with each successive flowering over the years?

that is something that I do not know.

Until three years ago I did not care about palms at all.

So I saw that Caryota when I arrived in Nepal, but did not remember whether the inflorescences/stalks went a bit more down since last year or not.

From last year I know that the stalks were fixed about 30-35 feet high on the stem.

Harry

So judging by your earlier statement that the plant was 65-70 feet, the flowers are now half way down the stem approximately?

If that is so then the palm you talk of will soon start taking a turn for the worst. What did the lower leaves look like the last time you saw it?

Cheers,

Michael.

[peachy]

Michael as our resident caryota xpert, my new gigas is about 30cms tall but with a fat little trunk of 3cms or thereabouts. Is it too small to plant now while there is still a frost risk ? Or should I wait till spring or leave it a couple more years until its a lot bigger ?

Peachy

[fdrc65]

This is my Caryota maxima var. Himalaya after this winter with temperature down to -2° C, but protected from rain and wind, the winter before with -3° C was in worse conditions , but it survive..

bye

Federico

[plamfrong]

Michael and Richard, it's great to know someone out there has those different Himalayan Caryotas. I think it's valuable information and maybe 'Mystery' and 'Solitare' will have real names someday. I was really interested in them for a while, back when Gibbons and Spanner first introduced 'C. himalaya' as being hardy to -7C (back in 1997 was it?) but a few years later I realized they were of course totally out of the question as outdoor specimens here. But I am still a big fan of the genus, even if I can't grow it. Caryota monostachya sounds interesting; I wonder just how hardy it is. Anyone got a C. bacsonensis? I had thought it could handle a little frost.

[Caryota_gigas]

Michael as our resident caryota xpert, my new gigas is about 30cms tall but with a fat little trunk of 3cms or thereabouts. Is it too small to plant now while there is still a frost risk ? Or should I wait till spring or leave it a couple more years until its a lot bigger ?

Peachy

I would leave it until it warms up. I would never plant anything at this time or year. (Downunder)

I have planted small ones, but find they do better when they are a little bigger. That said Caryotas seem to grow better (for me anyway) in the ground than in pots. Im guessing you will not be able to wait another few years... but make sure you wait another few months for the warmer weather, then give it plenty of water and rich soil.

[Caryota_gigas]

Caryota monostachya sounds interesting; I wonder just how hardy it is. Anyone got a C. bacsonensis? I had thought it could handle a little frost.

I doubt C. monostachya is very hardy when exposed to the open and frost, hopefully better than C. mitis though.

I dont have C. bacsonensis in-ground.

[plamfrong]

I'm impressed you have C. mitis in the ground and performing adequately there too.

[peachy]

Thanks for that Michael. I have had C. mitis in the ground for years, thought it was a tough old thing but the C. monostachya has always been a pampered house pet. You think it should be hardier than a mitis ? My zebrina and ophiopellis are both indoors too, although I have toyed with putting them out on the deck where it is fully shaded and sheltered from the elements. I decided to leave the gigas for another year, just in a larger pot. I am such a coward when it comes to risking them, however slight the risk might be.

Peachy

[Charles Wychgel]

Here is a photo of a plant I bought as Caryota bacsonensis in 2006 only 40cm high now almost 3 meter.

[Eric in Orlando]

I grew seeds of the "Solitaire" and "Mystery" Caryota. Our "Mystery" specimens have never clumped either, and are 6-8ft tall. "Solitaire" is not a vigorous grower, I think there are only a couple still alive.

The "Himalayan" got minor burn at 27F here, back in Jan. 2003.

[Caryota_gigas]

Thanks for that Michael. I have had C. mitis in the ground for years, thought it was a tough old thing but the C. monostachya has always been a pampered house pet. You think it should be hardier than a mitis ? My zebrina and ophiopellis are both indoors too, although I have toyed with putting them out on the deck where it is fully shaded and sheltered from the elements. I decided to leave the gigas for another year, just in a larger pot. I am such a coward when it comes to risking them, however slight the risk might be.

Peachy

Hi Peachy,

I am hoping C. monostachya will be a little hardier based on habitat, but who knows, time will tell. C. mitis does not do well here, and is only possible in warm shelered positions and never looks great. So Im hoping C. monostachya will be a clumping Caryota that does well here.

I wish I had a C. zebrina or C. opiopellis... dream palms, though unlikely to survive outside here, and they are not allowed in the country anyway.

[Caryota_gigas]

This is a C. maxima "himalaya" after a few frosts at my place...

Toast.

[iwan]

The palm I pictured in the Freeze Damage section was still alive and recovering nicely last summer (15 years post freeze). Haven't been back over this year to check it out.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?sh...ost&p=64075

The owner says it was sold to him as Himalaya.

[ron@springhammock]

This past winter my himalaya suffered through two hard freezes at 27F for several hours that bottomed out at 26F one night (-3C). I observered minor burning on the most exposed leaflets, and the 'himalaya' was the earliest to put out new healthy leaves of my assorted Caryota palms. For perspective my old C. mitis was totally browned, losing all of its leaves, and is now barely showing severly damaged new leaves.

I have a 'Solitare', that's been a weak grower, only a fraction the size of the 'himalaya' even though the same age. It didn't show any freeze damage. It's growing under a couple of oak trees. I also have a 'Mystery' that has been a very vigorous grower, even faster than 'himalaya', and like 'himalaya' showed a little frost damaged on the most exposed leaflets. But it appears to be slower at recovering, with its first new leaf showing cold damage.

I noticed that my 'Mystery' has a very thick brown fuzz on the lower petioles, while the 'Solitare' had none. 'Himalaya' has a little, but nothing like 'Mystery'. Anybody else notice this trait?

[Marius]

I have found the original thread!  
Posting my suckering “mystery” caryota maxima pics here. 

[edbrown_III]

I have it growing here in Jax --- survived the 2010 freezes and others --- has seen 20 F atleast once