The dwarf areca catechu debate

[Gbarce]

Buying a Dwarf Areca catechu is is tricky.

For one thing Dwarf trees will give you seeds that produce just the regular form. Complicating things more are reports that there are some that exhibit some "dwarfism" but will not turn out to be a "full dwarf".

For a lot of us novice collectors/enthusiasts who would like to get this palm, due to availability or cost, resort to buying seedlings. But how do you know if a seedling will turn out to be true dwarf?

A tell tale sign is suppose to be the absence of a petiole on the leaves-- but a what stage does this develop? I've gone through a number of Dwarf Areca Catechu seedlings that were being sold as dwarf but all had petioles so I passed on them.

I came across this one which did have petioles but I noticed that the leaflets were quite squat looking so I took teh risk and bought it.

[Gbarce]

I've been observing this palm and it does exhibit dwarfish traits. In general it does look stumpy.

Then I took a closer look at the petioles and they do look like they are progressively getting shorter--(compare the bottom petiole and the one at the top)

I guess only time will tell if it will turn out to be a true dwarf.

Are you growing Dwarf Areca Catechu seedlings? What are your observations with your developing palms?

[Walter John]

Interesting Gene, I've acquired dwarf betel nut twice yet only one of these has turned out a true dwarf. I won another little guy at a raffle so I'll investigate for you on the petioles etc. fotos soon.

[aussiearoids]

I was given a Betle , just a local grown seedling given to my neighbor who did not want it .

It has no petioles at all , but is growing like the clappers , so no way is it a dwarf .

And do you think I can find the picture I took the other day ??

Best I can do is the base , you can see the gaps between the leaf scars is very large , nearly 10 cms .

Looks like the dwarves have just a few mm.

[aussiearoids]

very little petiole here

[aussiearoids]

none really ..

and more like 15 cm nodes [6"]

[aussiearoids]

I like my Betle , it has a Teddy Bear next door

[Palm Guy]

Hmmm...I never had the chance to grow these but I wonder if the dwarves are just malnourished, neglected A. catechus? I've heard that some palms that are planted too high may become dwarf or reduced in vigour and never really fully develop properly...Can we potentially induce dwarfism by lack of nutrients and by planting them a bit higher when young or say growing them in more hostile conditions?

[Gbarce]

Palmguy - I think that there enough examples of Dwarf Areca Catechus all over to rule out that its just due to lack of nutrition. The dwarfs I've seen actually look very healthy and robust-- not malnourished at all.

Aussiearoids - Hooboy . With your palm as an example this weakens the "no-petiole" trait as an early feature to identify a dwarf.

[bgl]

Mike,

I definitely don't think that's the case. I have seen true dwarf seedlings and it's pretty obvious that these are different from the standard form, and they are also very healthy looking. If malnourishment caused them to become dwarfs they would obviously have to be neglected and mistreated from a very ealy age.

Bo-Göran

One of ours - planted in 2001 from a 1G pot. And I knew with certainty that it was a dwarf even though it was only about 10-12 inches tall at the time.

[Palm Guy]

hmm...my cents turned out to be worth only 1 lol. Malnourished was a bad word to use.

What about specific seeds that have take longer to germinate? I've noticed in my own batches of different palm species that seedlings that have taken longer to germinate tend to have been less robust than their earlier sprouting counterparts . Just a thought... I know almost to nothing about these guys other than the fact that I want one!

Cheers,

Mike

[bgl]

Mike,

Sorry to be the one shooting down your theories but I really don't think that's the case either. I believe some sort of mutation is causing certain individuals to develop as dwarfs. Fact is, a dwarf catechu seedling is very robust - it's just not very fast.

Bo-Göran

[Gbarce]

I guess what I'm after with this post are definitive traits that would identify a dwarf at the earliest possible stage in development. So when you are offered or are looking for one you know what you are getting.

Do you guys think that the very close nodes (about an inch or less) are the mark of the dwarf? In this case though the palm would be a juvenile already and not a seedling anymore.

[palmislandRandy]

Why does it have to be one or the other? If a dwarf is a variation of a normal catechu, why can't there be some "in betweeners"? Some that show traits for both the regular and dwarfs!

[Moose]

I do believe there are "tweeners".

Moose

[Jeff in St Pete]

Would these be considered "tweeners"? I posted these in a thread last year. They look so different from the normal Areca catechu that I'm accustomed to.

[LilikoiLee]

After following this thread I got curious about our dwarf A. catechu which is planted in a remote area of the garden. I hadn’t taken a serious look at for quite some time.

Well, it is definitely a dwarf, but now I am concerned that it is not doing well. Its leaves are very ragged and if it has grown at all it is only an inch or two in the last year. It is only 3' tall although it should now be about 4 years old.

It had a pest problem about a year and a half ago. I had the county lab run a test. I treated it as directed and fed it with a palm fertilizer. It recoved nicely. But it does not look good now. Are the leaves normally clustered so tightly? The nursery told me it needed a shady and protected spot. Since we had just cleared our property there was no shade so I put in on a border under a neighbor’s autograph tree. It is in fairly heavy shade all day and the tree drops lots of leaf debris around it. Does it need more light? Do the debris and the surrounding plants which have quadrupled in size have adverse affects?

I would appreciate suggestions from anyone who is growing catechu. Now that we have more shade around our garden I would like to relocate it to a more visible area unless it is one of those palms that don’t like their roots messed with. If so, I’ll trim back and clear as necessary.

Thanks!

Lee

[Jeff Searle]

Lee,

You definitely have a dwarf there. I'll be in the Kona area in two weeks and if possible, maybe come by and take a look at it. Maybe we can come up with something on why it's not growing.

Jeff

[Jeff Searle]

Lee,

I forgot to mention, this palm really enjoys alot of sun, basically it will take all day sune here in South Florida.

Jeff

[Moose]

Would these be considered "tweeners"? I posted these in a thread last year. They look so different from the normal Areca catechu that I'm accustomed to.

Jeff - I would say they are semi-dwarf. They do not look as robust as a typical Areca catechu and do not look like the true dwarf type in my opinion.

Best regards,

Moose

[Scott Cohen]

Randy i think you got it. There is a huge amount of variation in the A. Catechu dwarf, everything from the extreamly stumpy to the regular form. I have 3, 10-15 year old true dwarfs(5-6ftoa) in my yard from the same seed batch, and each is a little different than the next. There is no way to tell if one will be a true dwarf, but if it has short crinkely leaves, short or zero petiole and a slightly swolen crownshaft, your on the right track

~ s 2 h

[Palm Guy]

Mike,

Sorry to be the one shooting down your theories but I really don't think that's the case either. I believe some sort of mutation is causing certain individuals to develop as dwarfs. Fact is, a dwarf catechu seedling is very robust - it's just not very fast.

Bo-Göran

Bo you stole the last of my 2 cents! Shut down again!!! LOL. No worries. Never admitted to know much about these guys. I'll just crawl back into my hole now.

Robust was another bad word to use.LOL. Should've said fast growing and more reflective of the true traits of a normal A. catechu (height, node spacing, petiole length etc).

My theory was based on the notion that a seed which has sat for some time without germinating has more potential for its genetic make-up to be altered, degraded, etc. (similiar to a mutation). I'm not a scientist but I'm just trying to think of a ''somewhat'' logical explanation as to why there is such a variation between dwarves and why some seedlings do not grow true to form (such as in the case with A. vestiaria maroon.)

I want to try some of these! Till then I'll just enjoy the great pics you all have posted.

Cheers,

[Gbarce]

I guess at this point I just have to wait it out if any seedlings I buy turn out to be true dwarfs before I plant them in the ground.

The so called "tell tale signs" don't seem to hold true for seedling in the early stages.

Or just save up for a mature specimen that is undoubtedly a dwarf.

[Jeff Searle]

Randy i think you got it. There is a huge amount of variation in the A. Catechu dwarf, everything from the extreamly stumpy to the regular form. I have 3, 10-15 year old true dwarfs(5-6ftoa) in my yard from the same seed batch, and each is a little different than the next. There is no way to tell if one will be a true dwarf, but if it has short crinkely leaves, short or zero petiole and a slightly swolen crownshaft, your on the right track

~ s 2 h

I have seen these plants of Scott's and he's absolutely right.

Jeff

[Gbarce]

Scott Cohen- would you happen to have pictures of your "true dwarf" catechus when they were just teeny tiny seedlings?

[Scott Cohen]

I wish, i got them at 3g size. I have looked everywhere for a photo of dwarf seedlings and have nothing to show for it.

I am growing some 1g's right now and they show every dwarf characteristic except the leaf petiole, i have a theory that seedlings have the petiole, yet as the seedlings age the petiole gets shorter and shorter until it is nonexistant ( i watched this happen with dwarf seedling before). maybe in a year ill have a report for this topic

~S 2 H

'Gbarce' date='Aug 7 2009, 02:38 PM' post='325193']

Scott Cohen- would you happen to have pictures of your "true dwarf" catechus when they were just teeny tiny seedlings?

[Jeff Searle]

This is my largest Areca catechu "Dwarf". I consider it a really good form, hence that's why it got planted near our pool for everyone to enjoy.

[Jeff Searle]

Last month it started to flower for the very first time. The flower shown here is the second inflorescence that came out and was much larger than the first.

[Jeff Searle]

The first pic. is looking down into the crown of leaves standing on a chair. And the second one has a 4' long measuring stick for scale.

[Jeff Searle]

This last pic. show's the length of the each leaf, which you can see is not very long. The overall height of this palm is 7' tall and has been planted between 3 and 4 years now.

[ariscott]

Aren't they cute? They look like mini palms... well, they are mini palms :).

Regards, Ari

[Jeff Searle]

The next group of pictures are of another dwarf, but is clearly not the good compact form.

[Palm Guy]

Awesome pics Jeff! She's a beauty. I take it you will be doing some experiments of your own with the first seed batch?

Also, what is that croton sp next to it?

I wonder if these guys will ever become replacements for the pygmy dates? I think that its lack of cold hardiness may be its downfall.

[Gbarce]

Beautiful Dwarf Catechu Jeff.

Really illustrates why I wish mine would turn out to be a true darf. Looks like I have to wait for the leaf scars next-- see if they are really close together. The leaves on mine do look a bit compact but I am not sure if they are as "crowded" as yours.

[Al in Kona]

Gene, here is a pic I have shown before on another thread some time ago of a front yard garden here in Kona, Hawaii that has four Areca catechu (dwarf form) planted out at their entrance. They are still small enough to show their characteristics at that size so wanted to share them with you. I also have a dwarf form in our garden but it has been growing for many years and now has about 1.14m (4.5ft.) of clear trunk (not including the crownshaft). It has an inflrescence on it now too.

[Jeff Searle]

Awesome pics Jeff! She's a beauty. I take it you will be doing some experiments of your own with the first seed batch?

Also, what is that croton sp next to it?

I wonder if these guys will ever become replacements for the pygmy dates? I think that its lack of cold hardiness may be its downfall.

Hi Michael,

The croton variety is called King of Siam.

Jeff