PALM SPACING

[LilikoiLee]

This post should probably go on the Palm Basics forums, but I notice it is not as widely visited as this one.

I would love to hear how the experienced ‘palmers’ out there space their palms. I have read and heard that there should be enough room between the trees to keep their fronds from touching. Some palm books include spacing recommendations, but when I see those palms planted out they are usually spaced a lot closer. The widest spacings seem to be at commercial properties, probably to keep the landscape costs down. On the other hand I’ve seen some lovely groupings of palms with intermingled fronds. I love the palm forest look!!!

I have also heard/read about growth problems when roots are competing for soil nutrients. The thread on putting a trilogy of palms just a few inches apart so that their trunks will lean away from each other seems to indicate that the competition for soil nutrients is not such an issue. Is frequent feeding the solution?

Do different palms have different spacing needs? How do you personally determine your palms' spacings?

Mucho mahalos (Many thanks) in advance to all who respond.

Lee

[Walter John]

Hi Lee, firstly I think you have selected the right forum for these questions. These are intelligent and thoughtful and many if not all of us make these considerations at planting time. By the way, you see me a lot on this forum but many posts does not an experienced palmer make. If you get my drifting.

Okay, here's my take, it all comes down to personal preference, there's no right or wrong way. The same palm species in habitat can grow spaced apart or bunched together. Here in Queensland for example, Archontophoenix alexandrae and Archontophoenix cunninhamiana can be seen growing naturally in both isolated/apart and close knit spacing. I went for the closer grouping in my central palm planting area (Jacksons Jungle) where the leaf crowns meet on most occasions.

As for nutrient competition, don't worry about that, just mulch to buggery with the odd shovel of manures, if anything, closer plantings make that job easier.

This is my take, over to the rest of you now, this is one of those cool posts where I can see lots of solid healthy discussions taking place.

[freakypalmguy]

If you are ever worried that planting too close won't work, just refer back to this picture.

[BS Man about Palms]

If you are ever worried that planting too close won't work, just refer back to this picture.

"ALL HAIL VELEZ CATHEDRAL"

[Palm Guy]

Woah...That's some close plantings!

I'm pretty sure I'm with Wal on this one. I'm not an expert either. In nature most seeds fall right next to the mother palm and sprout on the spot. Eventually, only a few survive but the remaining seedlings will grow into large palms with fronds touching.

Spacing requirements are really just recommended numbers in order to get the best growth. If you want to play by rules, I've heard that the recommended spacing requirements are 4 ft for medium sized palms and 12 ft for large.

[gavilan1]

Somehow I knew that a picture of Ralph's place was going to show up in this thread...

:drool: :drool:

[bgl]

Lee,

I see you're really getting into this in a serious way! And before I proceed, let me add a piece of information - the photo posted above is of Ralph Velez' place in Westminster, Orange County (near Los Angeles). Ralph is a longtime palm enthusiast and one of the real oldtimers (that's meant in a very good way!) and when it comes to planting close he's the ultimate master! Approaching his property you can see his tall palms some 5 or 6 blocks away, and it looks real strange because you have all these very tall palms seemingly sticking up from one tiny little place! And there are NO tall palms on any of the other properties in his neighborhood. After Ralph completely planted out his own property (planted to about 300% of capacity!) he began planting on his neighbors' properties! With their permission obviously! I sold him a Bismarckia about 15 years ago, and that's apparently doing very well at the end of his little cul-de-sac!

Anyway, back to the spacing issue. Yes, different palms do have different needs. Generally speaking you can take just about any palm and create a close planting. Personally I believe this approach works best with pinnate palms. Not so well with most palmate palms. Some palms have fairly aggressive root systems - Clinostigmas, Roystoneas, Pigafettas and Cocos to name four of the worst "offenders". You can certainly plant these palms close together, and you've seen how I have planted some of these (Clinostigmas less than a foot apart for instance), but only if you stick to the same palm. I.e. a group of Clinostigmas close together works just fine. The problem is when we attempt to add other genera. I have made the mistake in a few places of adding smaller, understory, palms close to Clinostigmas (for instance). Not a good idea. The roots from the Clinostigmas will completely take over and whatever else is planted close by (say within 10 ft or so) will be severely stunted and will never look good.

Other palms (than the four genera mentioned above) have less aggressive root systems and it's easier to mix with smaller palms. For instance tall palms like Bentinckia, Actinorhytis and Veitchia can easily be mixed with any small palm and those smaller palms can be planted real close without any problems.

Bo-Göran

[Mr Cycad]

Hi Lee.

I agree with what everyone has said here already - there's no right or wrong way!

Really, you have to think about what it would be like in a habitat situation - infinitely random?

Below is a shot of a big Lepidozamia hopei on my property amongst a Licuala ramsayi forest which in parts are 'growing on top of each other'!

Cheers, Kurt

[Moose]

Woah...That's some close plantings!

I'm pretty sure I'm with Wal on this one. I'm not an expert either. In nature most seeds fall right next to the mother palm and sprout on the spot. Eventually, only a few survive but the remaining seedlings will grow into large palms with fronds touching.

Spacing requirements are really just recommended numbers in order to get the best growth. If you want to play by rules, I've heard that the recommended spacing requirements are 4 ft for medium sized palms and 12 ft for large.

It looks spectacular . Careful planning was obviously practiced. After seeing the rainforest in Costa Rica, I have started close planting. There are more palms then I have property

Moose

[peachy]

Thanks for that tidbit about the Clinostigmas Bo. I am about to plant a few of them here over the weekend and now know that where I had planned to put them will have to be re-thought. One never knows when or how a bit of useful information will pop up.

Peachy

[AJQ]

Matthew, thanks for posting that photo, simply Awesome. I have now changed my mind about moving a parabubea microcarpa, I shall just let it mix with the Juania, which about 6 foot apart. apparently the Parajub should be faster, so I should get the look that I'm after.

Regards Andy

[DoomsDave]

Lee:

I concur with all said, and note the topic on Layering . . . . .

click here for LAYERING THREAD hee hee hee

[MattyB]

A couple shots of some Howeas squeezed in below a couple of taller Archontophoenix. Seems to be working fine. But like Bo said, try and stick a Chamaedorea adcendens in there and it may be choked out.

[bgl]

An illustration of what can happen when planting smaller understory palms close to large palms. Immediately to the right of this Licuala peltata var. sumawongii is a large Clinostigma samoense - exactly 3 ft away. All the seeds and little volunteer seedlings visible in the photo are from this Clinostigma. The palm & roots just visible to the left of the Licuala is a Veitchia arecina, also about 3 ft away from the Licuala. Root competition between the Clinostigma and Veitchia is INTENSE. I didn't anticipate this when I planted the Licuala, and as a result it's severely stunted (that's a BIG understatement). The Licuala was planted in April 1997 - more than 12 years ago - from a 1G pot. It's about the same size today. But not as good looking! If I attempt to dig it up, I'll probably kill it, because the roots are bound to be completely intertwined witht the Clinostigma and Veitchia roots. Leaving it there is not much better because the palm will never look good...

[MattyB]

Bo, you could try and jackhammer a circle around the Licuala, killing all of the larger palms roots and turning them into nutricious mulch for the Licuala. I used to cut a Queen Palms roots that flowed out in the direction of a Dypsis pembana to help it along. The larger palm didn't suffer from the minor root cutting.

[bgl]

Matt,

Not a bad idea - except -A- I wouldn't use a jackhammer (I don't have one), and -B- I would use that method to retrieve the Licuala, not to leave it there. If I leave it there, the larger palms would regrow their roots quickly, leaving the Licuala in the exact same predicament. I AM convinced that cutting off some of the roots would not hurt the larger palms so I may just try that.

Bo-Göran

[LilikoiLee]

Wow! And I thought it was a really basic question! Thanks to everyone who responded and posted those great, inspiring photos. All of it was both helpful and reassuring. I am so glad Bo-Goren used those Phoenicophorium spines to get me to join this forum. I am learning so much and being among other fanatics is wonderful.

"Velez Cathedral" is unbelievable.

I am beginning to think that the problem with my ailing dwarf Dwarf Betel is the roots of the autograph tree that I planted it under because shade was scarce at the time. It's a blue rock area and the tree's roots are very close to the surface. The only two palms we ever lost, a Licuala grandis and a Mapu where under the same tree. There were no roots in the area when I planted them two years ago but I bet they are there now. Strangely, three Chamaedorea are doing fine under it.

Bo-goren,

I remember our conversations about those Clinostigmas, but it had more impact reading it in your post. I am all gaagaa-eyed when I am in your garden. I can barely breathe, must less assimilate information! I hope the palms we are integrating with your Clinos you are going to be OK. They are at least 8' apart, but like everywhere else in our garden rock is an issue. Should we relocate the other palms and replace them with Clinos? Among the 8 Clinos are the Betinckia and Cyrosophila we got from you, a couple of Veitchia from Kapoho Kai, and some dypsis which were there 1st and are too well established to move. If the worst thing that will happen is the other palms not reaching their size, I'd rather leave them. I think having the clingos towering over everything will be attractive.

Thanks,

Lee

[bgl]

Lee,

Not entirely certain what you mean by the '8 ft apart'. Are the Clinos 8 ft apart and you are now planning other palms in between? If so, that might be pushing it, even though the other palms will certainly grow there. Just not to their full potential. OR, do you mean that you're planting the other palms 8 ft away from the Clinos? I'm sure that will be fine even though the roots from the Clinos will most definitely extend out more than 8 ft. They just won't be quite as dense 8 ft out.

Bo-Göran

PS - could you please use the other font? I have a bit of a hard time with the one you used above...

[LilikoiLee]

Lee,

Not entirely certain what you mean by the '8 ft apart'. Are the Clinos 8 ft apart and you are now planning other palms in between? If so, that might be pushing it, even though the other palms will certainly grow there. Just not to their full potential. OR, do you mean that you're planting the other palms 8 ft away from the Clinos? I'm sure that will be fine even though the roots from the Clinos will most definitely extend out more than 8 ft. They just won't be quite as dense 8 ft out.

Bo-Göran

PS - could you please use the other font? I have a bit of a hard time with the one you used above...

Everything is 8' apart, so we're good! Hurray!

Thanks for letting me know about the font. I've been using it because I find it easier to read.

Lee