Florida clay soil

[Zeeth]

So the soil at our house is not your typical Florida soil. It has about a 2 inch layer of good topsoil, a 4 inch layer of sandy loam below that, and below that is blue clay. I dug a hole about 5 feet deep and it's blue clay as far down as I went. When planting my large coconut I thought that if I dug deep enough, and put sand mixed with bagged topsoil about 3 feet below the bottom of the coconut's soil that it would be good enough, but I'm starting to think I was wrong. When it rains, water often pools around the coconut for a day or more after the rain stops. I checked today and a section at the bottom of the trunk was starting to rot. I'm starting to think that my coconut may not make it through the next winter, and I want to be prepared to replace it if it croaks. How should I plant the next one if I have to get another? Should I just dig a hole like 12 feet deep until I hit sand or the rock that the aquifers here run through? Should I plant it late winter, or early spring? I'm hoping the one I have doesn't die, but I want to be prepared for if it does. Thanks

Keith

[Palmə häl′ik]

I think eleven feet ought to do it...

[Zeeth]

I think eleven feet ought to do it...

Ha Ha

Well, if the coconut doesn't make it and I have to get another one in the spring, I'll spend all spring break digging a gigantic hole until I hit sand or rock. I'll probably need to have a friend help so we can help each other get back out. After that I'd throw coarse builders sand into the hole until I can stand in it with the ground at chest level, then put a mixture of sand, topsoil, manure and "charged" charcoal (see my last post on the charcoal amendment topic) in with the coconut, leaving the coconut above ground level by about 1 foot so if it settles it doesn't sink below soil level like when I planted this one. Of course, this one may make it, but I always like to be prepared. So does this sound like a good idea, or should I do something else?

Keith

Edited August 17, 2009 by Zeeth

[BS Man about Palms]

Hmmm, mound planting sounds like a good idea here....

[Jose Maria]

Hi Zeeth,

Blue clay as far as I know is bad news...every blue or green colour in the soil means "chemical reduction".

Not enough oxygen to get roots to grow in it.

This soil must be waterlogged most of the year??

Once blue clay is dug out from there ,like when you dig a ditch, and enters in contact with the air, it starts turning brown, then you could plant in it....on a mound.....I would suggest drainage .

[Zeeth]

Hi Zeeth,

Blue clay as far as I know is bad news...every blue or green colour in the soil means "chemical reduction".

Not enough oxygen to get roots to grow in it.

This soil must be waterlogged most of the year??

Once blue clay is dug out from there ,like when you dig a ditch, and enters in contact with the air, it starts turning brown, then you could plant in it....on a mound.....I would suggest drainage .

Thanks, it must have come from the bottom of a swamp, as there's a lot of swamps around here. I sure wish I had florida sand like everybody else...

[Zeeth]

Keith,

What is blue clay?

I sometimes come across pockets of a gray clay like substance that I can't identify.

Initially I thought it was a big gob of construction material that someone had dumped many years ago in the initial build.

Although that didn't make much sense.

I dug some up and left it out and it dried and crumbled.

Does this sound like what you have?

My "soil" is a hodge podge of fill and dredged canal sand/shell/coquina mix.

Absolute junk. High pH and no nutrient value except phosphorus. And when you dig, you never know what you will find.

I feel your pain about the soil.

If I had a lot of money, I would dig up my whole yard and get some good soil.

I think if you do dig it, you should rent one of those mini back hoe's or you might need a new back!

As far as whether you should dig and amend, my thought is that very few palms like wet feet.

And even ones that do will put up with well draining soil but not vice versa...

Good luck,

John

I have come across a similar grey colored clay other times, but this clay is a baby blue color, not gray. It goes from 6 inches below the surface, and I dug down 5 feet and still came across it. It is layered about 4 inches of blue clay, 2 inches of a rust colored soil mixed with chalk (like you write on a blackboard with) and white rocks all the way down (clay, rust, clay rust, clay rust etc). I think it's from the bottom of a lake or a swamp or something, just whatever the construction people could find I guess.

I'm lucky in that I'm 17 (and in good shape), so my back will be safe! Sure stinks that we both got stuck with crappy soil. During the housing boom, I'm sure builders weren't worried about providing houses with good soil. To them, the cheaper it is, the more profit they get.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Zeeth

[buffy]

There's one sound solution. Add tons of compost. Add more compost. Continue to add compost. Compost solves most all impossible problems. Do not try to dig it out. You will only make a pool to hold more water. Compost is the solution. And finally, plant high and dig holes just big enough for the root ball. Compost will take care of the rest.

[John Case]

There's one sound solution. Add tons of compost. Add more compost. Continue to add compost. Compost solves most all impossible problems. Do not try to dig it out. You will only make a pool to hold more water. Compost is the solution. And finally, plant high and dig holes just big enough for the root ball. Compost will take care of the rest.

Buffy,

Did you mention compost? It works real good......

[Kris]

Keith,

I feel your pain about the soil.

If I had a lot of money, "I would dig up my whole yard and get some good soil.

I think if you do dig it, you should rent one of those mini back hoe's or you might need a new back!

As far as whether you should dig and amend, my thought is that very few palms like wet feet.

And even ones that do will put up with well draining soil" but not vice versa...

Good luck,

John

Dear John well said

We have clayee soil all around running below up to 9 to 10 feet,coconuts & royals do grow well here.but water stagnates here for weeks after mansoon rains.And this is what i did & its working fine for me ! And here's the link..

How Far Can you Go..?

Lots of love,

Kris

[Palmə häl′ik]

It'll take some jack. ($$) But you could always have a couple yards of good soil dropped off, and rent a BobCat to dig up and work it all in and amend the whole back yard with it... I'm sure over the long run, it'll be worth it... If the BobCat's outta the question the old fashioned way with a gas-tiller could do it... You'd have to get a PR on some good soil from a local nursery or something... And delivery charge... ?

[buffy]

Buffy, Did you mention compost? It works real good......

No....I think I overlooked that recommendation. So, yes, add compost too. The thing about clay is that, generally, clay is extremely rich. It's just that plants need a way to pull those nutrients out. Compost helps in many ways. It promotes microrrhizal relationships that allow the roots to penetrate the clay and uptake the nutrients. When plants are planted high in compost, it also allows oxygen to get to the root zone. The list of benefits is long. I would not recommend removing the clay and replacing with soil. Compost is the only solution. I've been down this path on a massive project. Buy yards of compost and spread it around deep. Don't dig up the ground, lots of bad things happen. If you have trees, you kill them. You also make your drainage problems worse by creating fun new pockets for water to gather.

[Zeeth]

Buffy, Did you mention compost? It works real good......

No....I think I overlooked that recommendation. So, yes, add compost too. The thing about clay is that, generally, clay is extremely rich. It's just that plants need a way to pull those nutrients out. Compost helps in many ways. It promotes microrrhizal relationships that allow the roots to penetrate the clay and uptake the nutrients. When plants are planted high in compost, it also allows oxygen to get to the root zone. The list of benefits is long. I would not recommend removing the clay and replacing with soil. Compost is the only solution. I've been down this path on a massive project. Buy yards of compost and spread it around deep. Don't dig up the ground, lots of bad things happen. If you have trees, you kill them. You also make your drainage problems worse by creating fun new pockets for water to gather.

Makes sense. So next time I plant trees I'll just plant them high and add tons of compost.

To ray: We rent the house (thusly, most of my palms are potted until we buy in a year or so) but when I get my own house (in 7-10 years) if the soil is bad like here, I'll actually do a giant overhaul on everything. Rip up all the soil until I hit sand if it's clay, or about 5 feet deep if it's sand. Fill it up with a nice mixture of topsoil, compost, manure and whatever other goodies I can find. Most of the yard is going to be palms anyway, so they'll grow better.

[Kris]

Dear Keith

That is the most wisest decision... And remember one thing always : No pain no gain !

All the best,

Love,

Kris

[DoomsDave]

Zeeth:

Clay can be a blessing, though I know you might disagree at this point.

It holds water, and many palms like that. Given that coconuts live with their toes in the drink, I don't think you'll have a problem with them. Give that Florida's having some problems at various times with drought, your soil is actually a blessing.

On the other hand, there are some species that will not tolerate bad drainage (Dypsis decaryi, for one) but you can do the mound thing for them.

If you can, and you have the energy and time, I'd just bury lots of dead stuff in your clay, and it will lighten a lot, though, I'll also be the first to admit that's a lot of work. Bury about three feet of debris for every six inches to a foot of clay. (I can hear the screaming now, but dead stuff is all over . . . . )

You might want to go to your local library and see if your soil's been mapped by the Army Corps of Engineers. Sometimes those guys create great maps that will tell you how deep your clay is. If it's not that deep, you might be able to put holes throught it to make it drain better.

[Moose]

Compost, Dead stuff ... Nobody mentioned mulching.

Dave from So-Cal - how much does dead stuff run per yard in your neck of the woods?

Ron.

[John Case]

Buffy, Did you mention compost? It works real good......

No....I think I overlooked that recommendation. So, yes, add compost too. The thing about clay is that, generally, clay is extremely rich. It's just that plants need a way to pull those nutrients out. Compost helps in many ways. It promotes microrrhizal relationships that allow the roots to penetrate the clay and uptake the nutrients. When plants are planted high in compost, it also allows oxygen to get to the root zone. The list of benefits is long. I would not recommend removing the clay and replacing with soil. Compost is the only solution. I've been down this path on a massive project. Buy yards of compost and spread it around deep. Don't dig up the ground, lots of bad things happen. If you have trees, you kill them. You also make your drainage problems worse by creating fun new pockets for water to gather.

Buffy,

I agree with you...to be safe, add compost as well.

[DoomsDave]

Compost, Dead stuff ... Nobody mentioned mulching.

Dave from So-Cal - how much does dead stuff run per yard in your neck of the woods?

Ron.

Ranges from free to priceless . . . .

Serioulsy, I pay, when I'm forced to, about $14 a yard for shreadded mulch, though, if the traffic gods will, I can drive 50 miles each way and pick up truckloads of "gorilla hair" i.e., compusted mulch, smells sho' 'nuff funky!

Now that I have a garden, those palms generate TONS of dead leaves, palm and otherwise which work great EXCEPT for huge, massive CIDP leaves. (Which go in the ireplace . . . )

[Cristóbal]

when you put the compost dont forget put worms ! they dont go far in soil and help very much with the clay. if you put 1 worm in the ground in 1 year you have 5 or more for each worm.

[cfkingfish]

You would be surprised what a coconut would grow in. In the meantime, keep some coconuts in warm water and let them germinate over the winter with the water temp at least 75F. Either that or throw them in warm mulch. Coconuts are used to very inorganic material, so you should be fine as long as you fertilize.

[Kris]

Here is another useful link ?

How To Plant A Palm Tree

Love,

Kris

[Moose]

Compost, Dead stuff ... Nobody mentioned mulching.

Dave from So-Cal - how much does dead stuff run per yard in your neck of the woods?

Ron.

Ranges from free to priceless . . . .

Serioulsy, I pay, when I'm forced to, about $14 a yard for shreadded mulch, though, if the traffic gods will, I can drive 50 miles each way and pick up truckloads of "gorilla hair" i.e., compusted mulch, smells sho' 'nuff funky!

Now that I have a garden, those palms generate TONS of dead leaves, palm and otherwise which work great EXCEPT for huge, massive CIDP leaves. (Which go in the ireplace . . . )

Dave - I find the CIDP leaves easy to mulch. I take loppers and cut the rachis ever 12 inches until I get to the spine leaves at the base. That part I dispose of.

Ron.

[Moose]

So the soil at our house is not your typical Florida soil. It has about a 2 inch layer of good topsoil, a 4 inch layer of sandy loam below that, and below that is blue clay. I dug a hole about 5 feet deep and it's blue clay as far down as I went. When planting my large coconut I thought that if I dug deep enough, and put sand mixed with bagged topsoil about 3 feet below the bottom of the coconut's soil that it would be good enough, but I'm starting to think I was wrong. When it rains, water often pools around the coconut for a day or more after the rain stops. I checked today and a section at the bottom of the trunk was starting to rot. I'm starting to think that my coconut may not make it through the next winter, and I want to be prepared to replace it if it croaks. How should I plant the next one if I have to get another? Should I just dig a hole like 12 feet deep until I hit sand or the rock that the aquifers here run through? Should I plant it late winter, or early spring? I'm hoping the one I have doesn't die, but I want to be prepared for if it does. Thanks

Keith

Same as California clay.

[DoomsDave]

There's one sound solution. Add tons of compost. Add more compost. Continue to add compost. Compost solves most all impossible problems. Do not try to dig it out. You will only make a pool to hold more water. Compost is the solution. And finally, plant high and dig holes just big enough for the root ball. Compost will take care of the rest.

Buffy,

Did you mention compost? It works real good......

AND!

Plenty of compost!

[Dave-Vero]

As noted above, blue clay represents reducing conditions and hydric soil (waterlogged). If you have space, building some mounds might help. A traditional approach to better drainage was to install French drains--the old ones used hollow clay tiles; present-day versions use plastic tubes, netting, and gravel. But that's only useful if there's a ditch or retention pond to receive the water.

[Takil-Explorer]

Lots of compost indeed, but also best to dig that piece of land or garden first 3 spades deep! And then mix it good with lots of compost and coarse grit. You need to improve that soil structure! And always continue to add fresh compost to keep your worms happy. Worms are the best friends of any gardener!

Maybe some eartware drainage pipes to get rid of excees water can also help, and for irigation when you get dry weather. Well lots of work when you do it by hand but worth doing it!

Alexander

[Takil-Explorer]

On acid clay soils extra lime will also improve the soilstructure.

Alexander

[AggiePalms]

Keith:

I bet your dreaded blue/green very dense clay is the eroded and chemically altered top of the Pleistocene. This surface represents the sediment surface between the present warm interglacial and the lowered sea level of the last glacial. It is locally common around the Gulf and southeastern coasts, and is often burrowed, bored, etc. by organisms as sea level changed. I cored through this surface far more times than I wished during my graduate research! It is tough to core or bore; overlying sands and clays are easy, but this clay stops many coring devices. As you go offshore into bays/sounds/shallow Gulf, this surface drops in elevation, with thicker normal sediments above. Very strange chemical happenings at the end of the Pleistocene in these sediments!

The blue/green clay can be many feet thick, as several people said. It can be highly reduced, with very low porosity and permeability, partly due to the low sand/silt-clay ratio. That means a hole dug into the clay can fill with water, and stay that way, for a very long time, drowning most palms' roots. Yes you need organics to amend it; but watch out for causing even more reducing conditions. Yes you need lime/dolomite to change pH in the possibly saturated anoxic waters, but that doesn't necessarily change the Eh. You need porosity and therefore you may have enough perm to keep your holes from being pools. Liberal sand amendments help with those, if you can thoroughly mix the sand and clay.

Basically, you need to not have the blue/green clay under your family's property. But since it is there, follow the recommendations above, and also remove as much clay as possible; raise your palm plantings, and provide drainage for trapped water in the planting holes. Why do we have to plant palms in the ground, why not in raised beds above the ground? Vegetable gardeners do; why not us coconut freaks? After all that work, you should be fine.

Fine until you want a palm on the other side of the yard, then you start over. When you graduate and buy a home of your own, just don't buy where the clay is shallow enough to interfere with plantings. There are maps available to show the depth to the Pleistocene surface for many areas. As a coastal geologist, I will be happy to come evaluate your geological setting to see if your "soil" really can grow coconuts, or anything else of interest. But you will be obligated to give me coconuts from your trees five years later!

[vincentmolino]

I have the same problem in Louisiana but I live on a channel of lake Pontchartrain (slightly brackish) so i have all the dark sand I can get if I retrieve it at the waters edge. Thats what I plan to use for my new Hawaii talls Im getting shipped in for planters. Ill prob add some Lava rocks from Home depot for the hell of it, i think that would look cool too as a soil covering.

Also my name is Vinny and Im new to the forum

[BS Man about Palms]

Welcome Vinny!

[Moose]

I have the same problem in Louisiana but I live on a channel of lake Pontchartrain (slightly brackish) so i have all the dark sand I can get if I retrieve it at the waters edge. Thats what I plan to use for my new Hawaii talls Im getting shipped in for planters. Ill prob add some Lava rocks from Home depot for the hell of it, i think that would look cool too as a soil covering.

Also my name is Vinny and Im new to the forum

Vinny - welcome to Palm Talk!

[sonoranfans]

this part of florida(tampa to sarasota) is famous for the worlds largest phosphate mines. the phosphate naturally occurs with sulfur/sulfates so the soil tends to be acidic. Acidic clay can be a problem for drainage and for nutrient uptake. A pH of 6 will pretty much stunt most palms as many micro nutrients are weakly bio available at pH=6. Also, use a low phosphate palm fertilizer, 2% or less(florikan makes some 8-2-12 palm special). I would get a soil test, treat with liquid lime and proceed with deep soil ammendments with lots of sand and some mulch on top. If you have poor drainage, mulch lengthens the drying cycle(bad), sand assists evaporation to shorten it. In the case where you cant break through the clay, devise a downward drainage path(with sand) if possible to ensure drainage. If you cannot get it to drain due to non sloped land, a raised bed is the next step, and I would raise it 2' using concrete pavers or other rock with soil netting to prevent loss of loam. the good thing about a raised bed is that you can use some of the clay in the soil of the bed as drainage wont be an issue. Good luck!

[pfancy]

this part of florida(tampa to sarasota) is famous for the worlds largest phosphate mines. the phosphate naturally occurs with sulfur/sulfates so the soil tends to be acidic. Acidic clay can be a problem for drainage and for nutrient uptake. A pH of 6 will pretty much stunt most palms as many micro nutrients are weakly bio available at pH=6. Also, use a low phosphate palm fertilizer, 2% or less(florikan makes some 8-2-12 palm special). I would get a soil test, treat with liquid lime and proceed with deep soil ammendments with lots of sand and some mulch on top. If you have poor drainage, mulch lengthens the drying cycle(bad), sand assists evaporation to shorten it. In the case where you cant break through the clay, devise a downward drainage path(with sand) if possible to ensure drainage. If you cannot get it to drain due to non sloped land, a raised bed is the next step, and I would raise it 2' using concrete pavers or other rock with soil netting to prevent loss of loam. the good thing about a raised bed is that you can use some of the clay in the soil of the bed as drainage wont be an issue. Good luck!

hey tom- do you how soil is going a bit more south-ie venice or port charlotte?