Major crack in favorite palm....HELP!!

[MTM Palms]

Please I need help on saving this Satakentia palm. I purchased in a 45 gal with a 2 inch crack in the trunk, which I assummed was from cold damage because it also had a shrunken head and partially burned older leaves. It has been in the ground for 4 months with special care of Daconil, Superthrive and Subdue Max. The crack has continued to get larger and now is huge and deep. The new leaves have continued to open shorter (like fragile palms do after cold spells) and new spears are continuing to push out, but have not yet returned to normal leaf size. The white stuff next to hole is remnants of latex caulk that I applied when crack was smaller. I also have sprayed fungicides and insecticides into the crack every 2-3 weeks.

Any advise?

[Okie]

Please I need help on saving this Satakentia palm. I purchased in a 45 gal with a 2 inch crack in the trunk, which I assummed was from cold damage because it also had a shrunken head and partially burned older leaves. It has been in the ground for 4 months with special care of Daconil, Superthrive and Subdue Max. The crack has continued to get larger and now is huge and deep. The new leaves have continued to open shorter (like fragile palms do after cold spells) and new spears are continuing to push out, but have not yet returned to normal leaf size. The white stuff next to hole is remnants of latex caulk that I applied when crack was smaller. I also have sprayed fungicides and insecticides into the crack every 2-3 weeks.

Any advise?

I have had several Satakentias do this. My first one had about 10 inches of wood and the crack ran into the crown. It eventually died.

I have two side by side now and one developed a crack after a long drought followed by two weeks of straight rain. The crack also ran into the crown. Since the palm gets hit by an irrigation rotor, this crack would constantly get wet. So, like they do for cycad suckers that they cut off the main plant, I filled the crack with something called "Great Stuff" http://greatstuff.dow.com/ available at Home Depot etc. First, I sprayed the crack with a fungicide, then I used Great Stuff.

I just went outside to take these photos. Looks like I need to re-apply as the crack is showing at the top.

[MTM Palms]

Please I need help on saving this Satakentia palm. I purchased in a 45 gal with a 2 inch crack in the trunk, which I assummed was from cold damage because it also had a shrunken head and partially burned older leaves. It has been in the ground for 4 months with special care of Daconil, Superthrive and Subdue Max. The crack has continued to get larger and now is huge and deep. The new leaves have continued to open shorter (like fragile palms do after cold spells) and new spears are continuing to push out, but have not yet returned to normal leaf size. The white stuff next to hole is remnants of latex caulk that I applied when crack was smaller. I also have sprayed fungicides and insecticides into the crack every 2-3 weeks.

Any advise?

I have had several Satakentias do this. My first one had about 10 inches of wood and the crack ran into the crown. It eventually died.

I have two side by side now and one developed a crack after a long drought followed by two weeks of straight rain. The crack also ran into the crown. Since the palm gets hit by an irrigation rotor, this crack would constantly get wet. So, like they do for cycad suckers that they cut off the main plant, I filled the crack with something called "Great Stuff" http://greatstuff.dow.com/ available at Home Depot etc. First, I sprayed the crack with a fungicide, then I used Great Stuff.

I just went outside to take these photos. Looks like I need to re-apply as the crack is showing at the top.

WOW, yours looks just like mine. Thanks for the advise I will try that foam tomarrow. I cant tell you how many of these I killed from 3-7 gallon over the past year. Very difficult palm, which is why I went with a bigger size expecting hardyness, but now this happens. I spoke to a grower who said they like lots of water when larger, but too much when smaller is leathal. The books also state that cracks in the trunk of any palm can be caused by excessive water uptake, which may have happened to yours after that drought.

Thank again!

[fiji jim]

I had this happen to a triangle palm and after some time the crack closed a little and palm is growing ok and now seeding.

I think that it was caused by excessive water as it occurred late in our wet season and the palm is planted on a fairly flat area that does not drain as well as one other of the same age that is nearly twice the size and well drained on a slope in full sun.

Good luck with your palm, I guess that it will survive.

Jim

[MTM Palms]

I had this happen to a triangle palm and after some time the crack closed a little and palm is growing ok and now seeding.

I think that it was caused by excessive water as it occurred late in our wet season and the palm is planted on a fairly flat area that does not drain as well as one other of the same age that is nearly twice the size and well drained on a slope in full sun.

Good luck with your palm, I guess that it will survive.

Jim

I sure jope it will survive and thanks for the info.

[LJG]

I thought someone would comment on this for you that is smarter then me (most people are). But here is my take anyway.

1) If this were in CA, I would go right to Pink Rot. This is exactly how palms look once PR settles in. When you say your palms usually die afterwards, that would be a sure sign for me. The issue is PR is not so big of a deal in FL. So maybe it is some other rot fungus. It is definitely not the natural cracking you see in may palms. This plant has a sick look to it and I bet if you felt around, it is a little soft in the trunk by the damage? If so...

2) You can not use Daconil, Superthrive and Subdue Max. Daconil is a contact killer. Once in the stem, it can't get there. Superthrive is a high dose of vitamins. Counter productive on a very sick plant. Subdue is a systemic. So it does nothing on the stem. The plant must be drenched. Even then it won't do anything on PR or a fungus in the trunk. It is just for Pythium (root rotting fungi - most commonly associated with damping off in pots) and phycomycete (basically water molds - leaf fungus).

3) One fungicide that works well against PR and other fungal attacks (especially *before* it gets into stem) is Cleary's. This use to be expensive but now you can get enough to last a lifetime for $60. It too is a drench. Just hit the plant every 30 -45 days.

The last thing is about the use of fillers like Great Stuff is many people are pulling away from this. The argument against use is there is no way to 100% seal and isolate the damage. So if you seal and moisture or air is still in wound, you create a better way for fungus for example to grow. I know a few cycad guys that now just leave the area exposed and dried until it calluses. Same with palms. Clean out the area, and let it dry. Keep all moisture out. Again, this is just one side of the argument. I know many like Okie have a different take.

Anyway, good luck with it. I wish I could grow those palms in SoCal.

[Dypsisdean]

Have you watched the presentation on Palm Diseases? HERE There are some references to cracks in palms, and why not to put "fillers" in. In addition there is a link there to a site run by a palm/plant pathologist, that could give you additional info from a very knowledgeable scientist.

[freakypalmguy]

I thought someone would comment on this for you that is smarter then me (most people are). But here is my take anyway.

1) If this were in CA, I would go right to Pink Rot. This is exactly how palms look once PR settles in. When you say your palms usually die afterwards, that would be a sure sign for me. The issue is PR is not so big of a deal in FL. So maybe it is some other rot fungus. It is definitely not the natural cracking you see in may palms. This plant has a sick look to it and I bet if you felt around, it is a little soft in the trunk by the damage? If so...

2) You can not use Daconil, Superthrive and Subdue Max. Daconil is a contact killer. Once in the stem, it can't get there. Superthrive is a high dose of vitamins. Counter productive on a very sick plant. Subdue is a systemic. So it does nothing on the stem. The plant must be drenched. Even then it won't do anything on PR or a fungus in the trunk. It is just for Pythium (root rotting fungi - most commonly associated with damping off in pots) and phycomycete (basically water molds - leaf fungus).

3) One fungicide that works well against PR and other fungal attacks (especially *before* it gets into stem) is Cleary's. This use to be expensive but now you can get enough to last a lifetime for $60. It too is a drench. Just hit the plant every 30 -45 days.

The last thing is about the use of fillers like Great Stuff is many people are pulling away from this. The argument against use is there is no way to 100% seal and isolate the damage. So if you seal and moisture or air is still in wound, you create a better way for fungus for example to grow. I know a few cycad guys that now just leave the area exposed and dried until it calluses. Same with palms. Clean out the area, and let it dry. Keep all moisture out. Again, this is just one side of the argument. I know many like Okie have a different take.

Anyway, good luck with it. I wish I could grow those palms in SoCal.

You should leave the complicated answers like this one to the smart guys Len, I give you an "A" for effort though

Nice explanation Len, but I still have a few questions about proper application. For daconil, I mix it up in the prescribed amount and spray it in the growing point and sometimes on foliage. Is this the proper way to use this product?

Also, with systemics (that's a deceiving word as it has the word "stem" in it), some are used as a soil drench and others are meant to be sprayed on the foliage. Since they don't help if the stem has been infiltrated, then do systemics help with root fungus/rot or foliar or both?

Is Cleary's the best to apply in most cases, eliminating the need for having daconil and systemics on hand?

Matt

[LJG]

You should leave the complicated answers like this one to the smart guys Len, I give you an "A" for effort though

I hope you were joking Matt.

Nice explanation Len, but I still have a few questions about proper application. For daconil, I mix it up in the prescribed amount and spray it in the growing point and sometimes on foliage. Is this the proper way to use this product?

Matt, Daconil (Chlorothalonil) is a contact fungicide (multi-site fungicide). They need direct contact to kill and can remain on the plant surface to prevent the spread of fungus. Daconil is always in debate on what it does towards crown rot. What I know it does is kill leaf fungus. So that is where it should be applied. Now many argue about putting it down the crownshaft after a spear is pulled. There are some growers here that say it does nothing and that has been documented in these forums. But I still do it. I make a heavy solution and pour it down. So in this case it is more anecdotal then anything else since there is nothing from any makers of Daconil that say it treats any other fungus other then what is on the label.

Also, with systemics (that's a deceiving word as it has the word "stem" in it), some are used as a soil drench and others are meant to be sprayed on the foliage. Since they don't help if the stem has been infiltrated, then do systemics help with root fungus/rot or foliar or both?

Actually it has the word "system" in it Systemic is a single mode fungicide and it must be absorbed. Spraying Subdue on a plants leaf is not going to kill anything. Maybe people that have seen it work do so because they use so much it drenched the soil and it taken up by the roots. Yes, most are absorbed by the roots. Some by the leaf (Avid is great for this as a miticide). Basically what happens is once the plant has absorbed the fungicide the plant will now be able to stop fungal development at a certain point - hence "single mode". My comment about once fungus get into the stem like we see here, it is usually too late to stop the issue. There seems to be a critical level, once past, it is very hard to stop it. Case in point. I lost a double stem Prestoea. One stem one year, the other the next. Both times I waited until the stem had the kind of damage seen here. However I had Pink Rot get into a B hapala and an A purpurea. Both are 100% healthy because I used Cleary's right when I saw trouble. My Purpurea has some trunk damage, but it is minor.

Is Cleary's the best to apply in most cases, eliminating the need for having daconil and systemics on hand?

Cleary's is a systemic! Just like contact killers, each has its own targeted use. Cleary's kills what Subdue does not. However Cleary's is one of the best broad range systemic you can find and afford as a home owner. Heritage is great but I won't pay $800 for it. I was turned onto Cleary's by Plant-tek. They use it. It has saved a lot of plants in the ground. Subdue is only used for seedlings in the greenhouse for me. It is a great preventative. The best combo is a contact and systemic. When I see leaf browning from fungus, I use Daconil. When I see the slow dulling of a leaf (sure sign of damping off) of a plant in the pot, I use Subdue. But same thing here, there is a critical point where sometimes it is just too late. Hence why I use it as a preventative (active verse reactive).

Matt, give me a call or PM if you seriously have questions. I am a nerd for this stuff. I have learned a lot from people like George Sparkman, Phil and Terry (forget the last name but she knows her stuff and post here often) and others. Plus I do a lot of research online. Not saying it is guaranteed success, but it might help you shrink the learning curve that I had to go through. Maybe someone will come by here and add to this or correct things if something stated is wrong.

[Tala]

been doing this for a living almost 20 yrs now, what he said above, Subdue, Alliette, Heritage, etc. are root fungicides, while Clearys T-Storm, 4.5 Flow (all are thiophanate methyl) are broad spectrum products designed for leaf spots, other above ground issues.

Don't fill in the cracks, causes more rot, esp. in hot humid climes.

[freakypalmguy]

I hope you were joking Matt.

Absolutely Len, 100% joking. I know you are a sponge for information and just couldn't resist a bit of playful sarcasm. Sorry it came across wrong, this is some really good info.

Actually it has the word "system" in it Systemic is a single mode fungicide and it must be absorbed. Spraying Subdue on a plants leaf is not going to kill anything. Maybe people that have seen it work do so because they use so much it drenched the soil and it taken up by the roots. Yes, most are absorbed by the roots. Some by the leaf (Avid is great for this as a miticide). Basically what happens is once the plant has absorbed the fungicide the plant will now be able to stop fungal development at a certain point - hence "single mode". My comment about once fungus get into the stem like we see here, it is usually too late to stop the issue. There seems to be a critical level, once past, it is very hard to stop it. Case in point. I lost a double stem Prestoea. One stem one year, the other the next. Both times I waited until the stem had the kind of damage seen here. However I had Pink Rot get into a B hapala and an A purpurea. Both are 100% healthy because I used Cleary's right when I saw trouble. My Purpurea has some trunk damage, but it is minor.

Now it makes sense, system not stem. I have a Ravenea rivularis with 5' c.t. and it is a goner. I've tried all of the products I have with no luck. I have a couple of systemics, a Bayer product and Orthenex. Now I see they are both for leaf fungus and Orthenex add insect control, which is the reason for the foliar application. The only other product I have is Daconil, and I soak the soil as well on an ailing plant. I guess that's spinning my wheels and I need to get some Cleary's. I bet I could have stopped the downfall of my R. r. at the early stages. Oh well, I already have a different palm picked out for that area.

Thank you again Len, I appreciate all you info.

[LJG]

Next time you stop by, grab some Subdue and Cleary's. One is liquid, the other powder. You will need Subdue now that you germinate so many things and have a greenhouse.

I hope you were joking Matt.

Absolutely Len, 100% joking. I know you are a sponge for information and just couldn't resist a bit of playful sarcasm. Sorry it came across wrong, this is some really good info.

Actually it has the word "system" in it Systemic is a single mode fungicide and it must be absorbed. Spraying Subdue on a plants leaf is not going to kill anything. Maybe people that have seen it work do so because they use so much it drenched the soil and it taken up by the roots. Yes, most are absorbed by the roots. Some by the leaf (Avid is great for this as a miticide). Basically what happens is once the plant has absorbed the fungicide the plant will now be able to stop fungal development at a certain point - hence "single mode". My comment about once fungus get into the stem like we see here, it is usually too late to stop the issue. There seems to be a critical level, once past, it is very hard to stop it. Case in point. I lost a double stem Prestoea. One stem one year, the other the next. Both times I waited until the stem had the kind of damage seen here. However I had Pink Rot get into a B hapala and an A purpurea. Both are 100% healthy because I used Cleary's right when I saw trouble. My Purpurea has some trunk damage, but it is minor.

Now it makes sense, system not stem. I have a Ravenea rivularis with 5' c.t. and it is a goner. I've tried all of the products I have with no luck. I have a couple of systemics, a Bayer product and Orthenex. Now I see they are both for leaf fungus and Orthenex add insect control, which is the reason for the foliar application. The only other product I have is Daconil, and I soak the soil as well on an ailing plant. I guess that's spinning my wheels and I need to get some Cleary's. I bet I could have stopped the downfall of my R. r. at the early stages. Oh well, I already have a different palm picked out for that area.

Thank you again Len, I appreciate all you info.

[MattyB]

Questions:

1. When a leaf/spear pulls out of the crown, or a leaf/spear is rotting down in the crown, which one should you use? Cleary's or Subdue? I'm assuming Cleary's as this is above ground. Is this right?

2. In my experience, crown rot, leaf spotting and leaf brown tipping is, if not caused by, most always accompanied by root rot. So should you use Cleary's for the spots and crown rot or Subdue because of the roots rotting? Can you use both simultaneously?

3, If you know so much about this stuff, how come your garden looks like it does? That one's for Len.

[Carlo Morici]

MTM, here is my opinion:

Almond shaped cracks are often "good cracks" and they don't give rise to "caries" like amorphous cracks do. I can't see very well within the crack, but yours looks almond shaped. It is probably growing larger because the stem itself is growing thicker. Probably because the palm in the nursery had started trunking with insufficient girth. The problem is that it is growing upwards toward the growing point. It will hopefully stop at some point. It usually stops, but we have one Copernicia alba with a bad "good crack" that is just below the growing point. It originated after a transplant and it is still splitting more after 12 years. The palm blooms and fruits, but I am sure one day the wind will snap it.

I would never fill a crack. It is often the worse you can do. I would rather clean dead tissue and possibly enlarge the lower part so it can quickly drain water and dry out... and keep my fingers crossed during months.

If the crack happens at the base of the stem, there is always hope that the palm will fill it with adventitious roots, later in its life.

Carlo

[kahili]

OMG Len-You did great explaining it all! the only thing that I would add is that coverage from Clearys only lasts about 14 days, not 30-45, and if you are spraying an active fungus, then I would do it every 14 days, if preventative, then you could increase the time between spraying. Ideally though, you should alternate between Clearys and another fungicide that would treat PR if there is an active case. Len, here is a new approach instead of the Subdue for pythium-its called Rootshield and its very effective in attacking pythium spores. Its cheaper than Subdue and the coverage lasts about 12 wk (3 times as long as Subdue). Check it out.

Tala -Clearys is absolutely used as a root fungicide-its one of the most effective for thielaviopsis, and is applied as a drench for it. In fact, Clearys is most effective when taken up through the roots as a systemic. Its the only way that I use it. If there is a leaf fungus-there are better fungicides to use that are contact like Daconil, Mancozeb etc.

Matt-I have looked at this problem of spear pull-esp when its caused by wet winters, and I think its a bacterial rot-not a fungus, and therefore, no fungicide is going to be effective. 9 times out of 10, its been my experience that the palm grows out of it, and I don't treat it.the only effective course of action that I might do is pour hydrogen dioxide down the crown-but I think its better to keep the hollow area as dry as possible, and pouring liquid down it -its 50/50 whether its better to or not. I don't know of any fungus that Daconil treats that would rot a palm spear. Imo, its a waste of money.

Clearys could be applied as a drench (always) and sprayed (not poured) down a crown shaft, but again-if its bacterial rot, then it won't do any good. I have yet to hear of anyone telling me (or anyone else) what exactly is the fungus that is being treated with the Daconil-except for a leaf spot fungus-but that is not what everyone on this board uses Daconil for.

I have never heard about a distinct association between a leaf spot fungus and pythium/phytophora etc. Usually leaf fungi are not lethal to a plant. I would say that a plant under stress might get a root fungus-but leaf fungi usually won't do that. Damaged roots from too much water, burnt roots from too high soluble salts etc would open the gates more to a root fungus. You can use Clearys and Subdue together-its my favorite preventative spray-you have to use it as a drench though. But as above-I would use Daconil for a leaf fungus first, and then come in with the Clearys. I would not mix Daconil and Subdue together as they are applied much differently to the plant. One is a drench (Subdue) and the other is just sprayed on the foliage to the point of runoff. Be careful with drenching with Subdue-its not hard to be tempted to apply too much into the soil in trying to get it to the roots. If you are spraying a small pot, then you can apply it to where it just starts to run out the bottom (3.5" pt, not a gallon), but much bigger and you have to use water after you spray to get it down where the roots are. I tell landscapers to spray just before a rain if they can-otherwise water it in afterwards with straight water.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Has anyone heard of using DMSO in conjunction with a fungicide? DMSO is a solvent used by animal Vets so that whatever it is mixed with is absorbed into the tissue. My dog has ear infections and I used this with his eardrops. I have heard of this used at Horse tracks and even people with arthritis. I have also heard of it used with nicotine sulfate to make the nicotine a "systemic".

A little bit of DMSO mixed with a fungicide injected into the crack might work.

[Okie]

.....and where would one get DMSO?

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

I get mine from the vet. You could probably get some in larger quantities from a horse vet supply. One caveat though, DON'T GET IT ON YOUR SKIN if you have mixed it with harmful chemicals. It absorbs into you and does not wash off.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_sulfoxide

http://www.herbalremedies.com/dmso.html?so...CFado5QodfgOTbA

I just took a minute to google it.

[Kostas]

And to add to that,DMSO is a known carcinogen,although in chronic exposure,so you dont want it on you anyway....It can be used to ease the penetration of medicines into the body but one must weight the gain and danger involved to its use.

At the lab,we never touch it and wear special gloves when we use it...

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

My wife's uncle used to pour the stuff on his arthritic knees. He said it gave him some relief. In the wiki article it mentioned being used with fungicide on toenails. I wonder if it would mix with horticultural fungicides?

[Kostas]

I know it used to and still is used in certain therapies and it indeed does work,its just that its use has a certain amount of danger one must take into account...

This stuff dissolves most anything,so it will mix with horticultural fungicides just fine and i think it can penetrate plant cells just as well...

[kahili]

here is a study done where they added the DMSO to a fungicide and if you scroll down to the results and discussion part of the study, they say that DMSO did not increase the effectiveness of the Captan fungicide. http://www.cps-scp.ca/download/cpds-archiv...20-123)1968.pdf

However, if I had some now and I thought it would help, I sure would put it on my knees at this moment! Too much kneeling right now

[MTM Palms]

thank you all for your feedback, if anyone else has experience with this please reply, I dont want to loose this one!