so why did Madagascar end up with all the great palms and plants?

[trioderob]

it seems like Madagascar got way more than its share of interesting palms and trees.

anyone know why ?

Edited October 6, 2009 by trioderob

[DoomsDave]

It's a big island away from Africa, so that the infamous predators of palms like porcupines never could get there, plus with a large diversity of habitats and a great deal of adaptive radiation, plus, a lot of luck . . . .

[Dypsisdean]

This will explain a lot.

http://www.eoearth.org/article/Biological_...n_Ocean_Islands

[Walter John]

It's a big island away from Africa, so that the infamous predators of palms like porcupines never could get there, plus with a large diversity of habitats and a great deal of adaptive radiation, plus, a lot of luck . . . .

Hi Dave, I like your entry way better than Dean's. I guess if you threw a porcupine at a clump of Dypsis crownshafts, it could be quite nasty indeed.

[Dypsisdean]

Sorry Wal,

I was pretty sure there was quite a bit more to the story than Dave allowed. And I thought some of you would find what I came across as interesting. I did.

[Walter John]

I'm hoping there's more to Dave's post too.

Your link is very interesting Dean, especially the section on baobab trees.

[Kim]

The fact that smacks me across the forehead is that people didn't arrive on the island until 2,000 years ago, but they are making short work of the island's natural habitat and all those wonderful, freakishly unique endemic species that took tens of millions of years to develop.

[trioderob]

The fact that smacks me across the forehead is that people didn't arrive on the island until 2,000 years ago, but they are making short work of the island's natural habitat and all those wonderful, freakishly unique endemic species that took tens of millions of years to develop.

KIM-

here is something to think about -

we both live in san diego.

san diego's natural habitat has been decimated worse than madagascar !

san diego was a area which had more types of plants and animals than any other area of the united states because within a few miles

you go from ocean to mountain to desert to forest.

now there are just houses - the % of natural areas here are tiny to what there once was.

[Justin]

The fact that smacks me across the forehead is that people didn't arrive on the island until 2,000 years ago, but they are making short work of the island's natural habitat and all those wonderful, freakishly unique endemic species that took tens of millions of years to develop.

KIM-

here is something to think about -

we both live in san diego.

san diego's natural habitat has been decimated worse than madagascar !

san diego was a area which had more types of plants and animals than any other area of the united states because within a few miles

you go from ocean to mountain to desert to forest.

now there are just houses - the % of natural areas here are tiny to what there once was.

Yeah, you can get a ton of bio-diversity in areas close to the coast, where there are tons of microclimates, different topographies, salt and fresh water in the same proximity, less freezing, etc. Heck, just look at the area around Cape Town, which is (per capita) the most bio-diverse area on Earth.

[LJG]

Dave's reply made me laugh. Dean's made me learn. Both were entertaining.

[Kim]

The fact that smacks me across the forehead is that people didn't arrive on the island until 2,000 years ago, but they are making short work of the island's natural habitat and all those wonderful, freakishly unique endemic species that took tens of millions of years to develop.

KIM-

here is something to think about -

we both live in san diego.

san diego's natural habitat has been decimated worse than madagascar !

san diego was a area which had more types of plants and animals than any other area of the united states because within a few miles

you go from ocean to mountain to desert to forest.

now there are just houses - the % of natural areas here are tiny to what there once was.

Hmm, I see what you're getting at, but it's an unequal comparison. San Diego is one city; Madagascar is about 1 1/2 times the size of the entire state of California. So imagine people living in Yosemite and Sequoia hunting and farming (and polluting) there; imagine men who carry a sharp scythe on a staff that they use to randomly whack down young trees as they walk along a path. Or imagine small family farmers randomly setting fire to primary forest so the land can be converted to farming for a few years until it's farmed out, then they move along to the next patch of old growth forest to burn. Imagine little to no enforcement of environmental protection laws. Imagine a Gross National Income of $320 per person compared with more than $46,000 per person in the USA, and imagine the educational differences these disparities create.

The state of California lists 111 animals and 178 plants as threatened or endangered. Meanwhile, in Madagascar, researchers are working to conserve 2,300 species of endemic plants and animals found nowhere else in the world.

Has anyone watched the Ken Burns series about the National Parks? They almost didn't happen. Really interesting viewing.

[Walter John]

Wasn't yellowstone the first national park ?

[epicure3]

Wasn't yellowstone the first national park ?

Yosemite was the first U.S. National Park.

[epicure3]

Has anyone watched the Ken Burns series about the National Parks? They almost didn't happen. Really interesting viewing.

I recorded the series and am in the middle of the second episode. The photography is stunning.

[LJG]

Grew up there. Yellowstone National Park was America's first national park - established in 1872. Yosemite was not until 1890.

Wasn't yellowstone the first national park ?

Yosemite was the first U.S. National Park.

[Tyrone]

Yellowstone was the first NP in the world.

Tyrone

[Walter John]

Yellowstone was the first NP in the world.

Tyrone

That's what I meant.............of course.

[sonoranfans]

Interesting topic, with lots of good points. Madagascar is isolated, there are few mammals outside lemurs. I look at madagascar and see a large island with lots of elevation(0-2876m). I also see a pacific monsoon season where it gets wet in the summer, and dry in the winter. The east side of the island will be especially wet during monsoon(comes from the east), the west less so, and the higher elevations will be mostly low humidity in winter when rain is scarce. So you have a great diversity of environments for different palms. Palms that grow in phoenix arizona very well, bismarckias, and palms that die in the hot and dry, dypsis. Great diversity with a wet season in the summer, sounds ideal for many species. This is very unlike San diego, which tends to be wet in winter, dry in summer. With the seasonal monsoon bringing water in the hottest months, its ideal for growing. Lots of water in the cold months is less than ideal for many palms. I'd love to live in madagascar, or san diego. But I'd rather grow palms in madagascar of course!

[osideterry]

Okay, here's the deal. Madagascar is a "PALM VORTEX". There are a few of these palm power centers around the planet. Places that not only sustain and welcome palm energy, but generate entire species of incomprehensibly amazing palm genus. Madagascar is like the Mount Everest of palm vortexes. Attached is an image taken with a infrared satellite camera that shows the intense arecoidal energy radiating from this island.

[plamfrong]

Despite the explanations for the biological diversity of Madagascar in general, it still seems a bit odd that they have so many palms compared to, say, the Cape Region of South Africa, another floristic hotspot with a climate that could certainly support palms. At least they have some interesting Cycads.

[Moose]

The fact that smacks me across the forehead is that people didn't arrive on the island until 2,000 years ago, but they are making short work of the island's natural habitat and all those wonderful, freakishly unique endemic species that took tens of millions of years to develop.

KIM-

here is something to think about -

we both live in san diego.

san diego's natural habitat has been decimated worse than madagascar !

san diego was a area which had more types of plants and animals than any other area of the united states because within a few miles

you go from ocean to mountain to desert to forest.

now there are just houses - the % of natural areas here are tiny to what there once was.

Hmm, I see what you're getting at, but it's an unequal comparison. San Diego is one city; Madagascar is about 1 1/2 times the size of the entire state of California. So imagine people living in Yosemite and Sequoia hunting and farming (and polluting) there; imagine men who carry a sharp scythe on a staff that they use to randomly whack down young trees as they walk along a path. Or imagine small family farmers randomly setting fire to primary forest so the land can be converted to farming for a few years until it's farmed out, then they move along to the next patch of old growth forest to burn. Imagine little to no enforcement of environmental protection laws. Imagine a Gross National Income of $320 per person compared with more than $46,000 per person in the USA, and imagine the educational differences these disparities create.

The state of California lists 111 animals and 178 plants as threatened or endangered. Meanwhile, in Madagascar, researchers are working to conserve 2,300 species of endemic plants and animals found nowhere else in the world.

Has anyone watched the Ken Burns series about the National Parks? They almost didn't happen. Really interesting viewing.

I would like to add that in less than 400 years, a massive forest that stretched from the New England states down to Virginia - and westward to Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota and Missouri was decimated. Sometimes we Americans come off arogantly telling other counties what they should be doing with their own land. We are very guilty as a young nation for many atrocities done to our own land in the name of "progress". That area is probably larger than Madagascar?

Ron.

[Eric in Orlando]

The fact that smacks me across the forehead is that people didn't arrive on the island until 2,000 years ago, but they are making short work of the island's natural habitat and all those wonderful, freakishly unique endemic species that took tens of millions of years to develop.

KIM-

here is something to think about -

we both live in san diego.

san diego's natural habitat has been decimated worse than madagascar !

san diego was a area which had more types of plants and animals than any other area of the united states because within a few miles

you go from ocean to mountain to desert to forest.

now there are just houses - the % of natural areas here are tiny to what there once was.

Hmm, I see what you're getting at, but it's an unequal comparison. San Diego is one city; Madagascar is about 1 1/2 times the size of the entire state of California. So imagine people living in Yosemite and Sequoia hunting and farming (and polluting) there; imagine men who carry a sharp scythe on a staff that they use to randomly whack down young trees as they walk along a path. Or imagine small family farmers randomly setting fire to primary forest so the land can be converted to farming for a few years until it's farmed out, then they move along to the next patch of old growth forest to burn. Imagine little to no enforcement of environmental protection laws. Imagine a Gross National Income of $320 per person compared with more than $46,000 per person in the USA, and imagine the educational differences these disparities create.

The state of California lists 111 animals and 178 plants as threatened or endangered. Meanwhile, in Madagascar, researchers are working to conserve 2,300 species of endemic plants and animals found nowhere else in the world.

Has anyone watched the Ken Burns series about the National Parks? They almost didn't happen. Really interesting viewing.

I would like to add that in less than 400 years, a massive forest that stretched from the New England states down to Virginia - and westward to Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota and Missouri was decimated. Sometimes we Americans come off arogantly telling other counties what they should be doing with their own land. We are very guilty as a young nation for many atrocities done to our own land in the name of "progress". That area is probably larger than Madagascar?

Ron.

Same thing has happened to Florida. Somthing like 80-90% of the original cypress stands growing when the first Euros arrived have been cut down. And it still happens today. Vast areas in the suburbs bulldozed, huge piles of trees burned then a new subdvision is built a few spindly trees planted and it is given names like "Royal Oak Hammock", "Cypress Pointe" or Whispering Pine Grove"

[Kim]

Terry, I like that photo of Madagascar, but I hope those are not fires... I love the idea of a PALM VORTEX. (Is it vortexes or vortices?) I think we are all hoping to discover or create a Palm Vortex in our own backyard, that perfect microclimate for palm energy. Excellent!

Ron, some truth to your comment about American arrogance. Does man ever learn from the past? Why do we not value something until after it is lost? What is it about human nature that makes us value the exotic and disdain the familiar?

Sometimes contemplating the effects of humans on the planet, our voracious appetites, our capacity for construction and destruction, it all makes me feel like my head will explode. (Same result when I try to understand string theory.) Then it's time to withdraw to my own small garden to nurture that little patch of palms.

[sonoranfans]

Its only wiki, but its compact in the explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Madagascar

"Climate

The climate is tropical along the coast, temperate inland, and arid in the south. The weather is dominated by the southeastern trade winds that originate in the Indian Ocean anticyclone, a center of high atmospheric pressure that seasonally changes its position over the ocean. Madagascar has two seasons: a hot, rainy season from November to April; and a cooler, dry season from May to October. There is, however, great variation in climate owing to elevation and position relative to dominant winds. The east coast has a subequatorial climate and, being most directly exposed to the trade winds, has the heaviest rainfall, averaging as much as 3,500 mm (137.8 in) annually. This region is notorious not only for a hot, humid climate in which tropical fevers are endemic but also for the destructive cyclones that occur during the rainy season, coming in principally from the direction of the Mascarene Islands. Because rain clouds discharge much of their moisture east of the highest elevations on the island, the central highlands are appreciably drier and, owing to the altitude, also cooler. Thunderstorms are common during the rainy season in the central highlands, and lightning is a serious hazard.

Antananarivo receives practically all of its average annual 1,400 mm (55.1 in) of rainfall between November and April. The dry season is pleasant and sunny, although somewhat chilly, especially in the mornings. Although frosts are rare in Antananarivo, they are common at higher elevations.

Although hail falls on many of the higher areas of the island (including Antananarivo), snow is unknown except on the Ankaratra massif where above 2,400 m (7,874 ft) it may occasionally fall and even remain for several days.

The west coast is drier than either the east coast or the central highlands because the trade winds lose their humidity by the time they reach this region. The southwest and the extreme south are semidesert; as little as 330 mm (13 in) of rain falls annually at Toliara. Overall, surface water is most abundant along the east coast and in the far north (with the exception of the area around Cap d'Ambre, which has relatively little surface water). Amounts diminish to the west and south, and the driest regions are in the extreme south."

So what other locale varies from 137" rain a year to 13" rain a year with 7800 ft of elevation variation for temperature variation? Perhaps Big island Hawaii, but then the volcanoes and lava flows are less an issue in madagascar, and madagascar is a much larger island for diversity development. South africa doesnt compare in these areas, and wont be as tropical and warm at the coast. Sounds like a "climate vortex" to me, like big island hawaii with more heat and less volcanoes.

Edited October 7, 2009 by sonoranfans

[madagascarbob]

Okay, here's the deal. Madagascar is a "PALM VORTEX". There are a few of these palm power centers around the planet. Places that not only sustain and welcome palm energy, but generate entire species of incomprehensibly amazing palm genus. Madagascar is like the Mount Everest of palm vortexes. Attached is an image taken with a infrared satellite camera that shows the intense arecoidal energy radiating from this island.

arecoidal ?

[Davidl]

Because they were intelligently placed there so we would be able to find them some day and plant them in our yards.Thats what I think

[trioderob]

It is estimated that the total number of chestnut trees in eastern North America was over three billion, and that 25 percent of the trees in the Appalachian Mountains were American Chestnut. The number of large surviving American Chestnut trees over 60 cm (24 inches) in diameter within the tree's former range is probably fewer than 100.

(so we took them from 3,000,000,000 to 100)

Edited October 7, 2009 by trioderob

[sonoranfans]

It is estimated that the total number of chestnut trees in eastern North America was over three billion, and that 25 percent of the trees in the Appalachian Mountains were American Chestnut. The number of large surviving American Chestnut trees over 60 cm (24 inches) in diameter within the tree's former range is probably fewer than 100.

(so we took them from 3,000,000,000 to 100)

This assumes that no weather shift or other natural phonema(lightning fires, pestilence) had an impact over that time period. I do know that 20,000 years ago the climate in florida was much colder due to different ocean currents. Florida was colder than Washington state in that time period according to archeologists. Also, 20,000 years ago the sahara desert was a dense jungle. When ocean currents shifted the sahara became a desert, and florida became a relatively warm region. The whole east coast warmed up as ocean currents starting coming out of the carribean up the coast(instead running from the arctic down the east coast). The warming up can lead to pest proliferation as well, and that may cause huge declines in some species populations. Such natural phonomena should not be completely ignored. Man had his role, but other effects cannot be ignored.

[Kim]

Trioderob - you left out the part about the chestnut blight, a fungus brought in on the bark of Chinese chestnuts, first noticed in the Bronx zoo in 1904.

[plamfrong]

So what other locale varies from 137" rain a year to 13" rain a year with 7800 ft of elevation variation for temperature variation?

The Olympic Peninsula, Washington.

[trioderob]

So what other locale varies from 137" rain a year to 13" rain a year with 7800 ft of elevation variation for temperature variation?

The Olympic Peninsula, Washington.

I love this place on the olympic peninsula

drove from san diego to see it (with alot of other places on the way)

hoh rain forest:

Edited October 7, 2009 by trioderob

[chris78]

Like Kim said, that chestnut trees decline was caused by an imported fungus that attacked the tree... Much like an importent fungus attacks the Americam elm tree also well known as Dutch Elm Disease. Both were imported by man...

There is another pest, an insect this time call Emerald Ash Borer (Agrilus planipennis) that was discovered in Michigan in June 2002 and it is attacking ash trees (Fraxinus), usually killing trees in one-three years. It was imported from Asia on a wood shipment. Some think this new pest could become widespread killing off another common american forest tree.

Madagascar does have quite a few palm species and Africa has relative few palm species. Climate plays a role and I am sure the fact that Africa has many more mammals both small and large also played a role.. Like most things in nature it may be 2 or more factors in play here.

Edited October 7, 2009 by chris78

[trioderob]

I found it

this explains the whole subject

this is interesting !

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/n...1001_madagascar

Edited October 7, 2009 by trioderob

[Dave-Vero]

Dransfield and Beentje in their summary of the palm family in "The Natural History of Madagascar" suggest that southern Africa/southern Gondwana once had a much richer palm flora that largely became extinct, probably due to climate change. Remnants of that flora would be persisting on Madagascar. Then there's the genus Dypsis, which has undergone a spectacular evolutionary radiation, the sort you see on islands. In this case, a big island with lots of different soils and climates.

[palmmermaid]

Same thing has happened to Florida. Somthing like 80-90% of the original cypress stands growing when the first Euros arrived have been cut down. And it still happens today. Vast areas in the suburbs bulldozed, huge piles of trees burned then a new subdvision is built a few spindly trees planted and it is given names like "Royal Oak Hammock", "Cypress Pointe" or Whispering Pine Grove"

And just to add to that, Eric. There is very little effort to protect the pine flatwoods. They are almost completely gone because they are the most desireable places to build. They are high and dry.

Indeed, we are arrogant.

I think Yosemite was the first park to be set aside as a park. It was done before Yellowstone but turned over to the state of California for management. And exploitation. It was expanded and made a national park after Yellowstone.

That PBS series is awesome. I've recorded all of them and haven't finished watching it yet.

[palmmermaid]

It is a shame Madagascar doesn't get the publicity the Galapagos Islands do. It is truly a world treasure and should be protected.