Caesalpinia (Poincianella) peltophoroides

[mnorell]

I'm very interested in trying Caesalpinia peltophoroides (I believe it's now reclassified as Poincianella peltophoroides) in my 9a climate-zone. I have read several reports that this species can withstand some pretty intense cold (as can a number of other Caesalpinias). Does anyone, particularly in the southeast or in Florida, have any experience with this species in freezes? I'd like to get one or two of these, but can't find a source. I'll be in Florida soon and can pick it up there if necessary. Anybody have any info on nurseries carrying this species?

[Peter]

Rob Bobson of Biospheric Engineering(also president of the Flowering Tree Society) in Homestead has C. peltophoroides. http://www.biosphericengineering.com/ And I can say that my peltophoroides has performed like a champ thru Socal winters, including the 07 freeze, not showing any damage, even with temps in the 20's. It has proved to be a slow grower here so far, although I think it grows much faster in Florida. Great tree!

[BigBpalms]

I'm very interested in trying Caesalpinia peltophoroides (I believe it's now reclassified as Poincianella peltophoroides) in my 9a climate-zone. I have read several reports that this species can withstand some pretty intense cold (as can a number of other Caesalpinias). Does anyone, particularly in the southeast or in Florida, have any experience with this species in freezes? I'd like to get one or two of these, but can't find a source. I'll be in Florida soon and can pick it up there if necessary. Anybody have any info on nurseries carrying this species?

I have caessalpinna pulcherrima that i am growing from seed- very beautifual and fairly frost hardy - our horrible cold snap fried one i had outside, but it has already put up some new growth in the last week- they will freeze, but they grow back nice and quick- I have heard 15 degrees will kill the root but not sure - I found mine on the internet and grew then from seed ( easy to sprout and fairly fast growers )- cant help with the nurseries never seen them sold anywhere- maybe south florida guys can help more

[Eric in Orlando]

So when did this get renamed again? GRIN and ILDIS still have it listed under the old new name, Caesalpinia pluviosa var. peltophoroides.

We have a couple growing here. The largest one is in an open spot that got heavy frost 2 nights. It was still fully foliated out but has since turned brown. So far the stems were still green, maybe some dieback on the tips. The lowest it saw was 28-29F. Its a fairly slow grower here, not as fast as other Caesalpinia.

[mnorell]

Thanks, Peter, I'll contact Rob about getting this. Much appreciated!

Eric: I've found with my two 15-foot C. mexicana/C. yucatanensis (I do think what I have is true C. mexicana based on Lewis's book) that the foliage will brown out below 27F but as you mention the trunks stay green. Mine do just fine here and look to be solid even after this freeze.

It probably is still C. pluviosa v. peltophoroides. Someone on another forum (Growing on the Edge) posted last year that as of 2005 the whole genus had been revised back into previous genus names, and thus the name for this was now Poincianella, but perhaps this is incorrect, as GRIN is usually up on such things. I do have Lewis's revised monograph of the Poincianella-Erythrostemon group of Caesalpinia and this of course gives C. pluviosa v. peltophoroides, but after all, it is 12 years old now, and what fun is it if the taxonomists can't change the names every few years?

My thought is that this species, if it shows itself to be as hardy as other species in the group, would be a better choice than Peltophorum dubium here. (I think my 10-foot seedling has died back to the ground, or may be killed outright after the recent horrible freeze.)

I have a small C. ferrea here for testing, obviously more often grown for its wonderful bark-pattern, but wonder if there are any others that might be hardy and showy in flower?

[Eric in Orlando]

I checked yesterday. The tree in the open where there was very heavy frost 2 nights in a row had all the foliage burnt and several of the main branches appear to have about a foot of killback. I scratched the stems and they were brown until about a foot down. This tree is 7-8ft. The other is in a much more protected spot and still has some green foliage but it is shedding it all now.

[mnorell]

Eric, thanks very much for checking the tree. It's not very encouraging...though might it work as a dieback since I assume it blooms on new growth, typical of most Caesalpinias? The only thing on that side that doesn't sound good is that I've heard it's a slower grower. I notice that Lewis's book shows C. pluviosa v. pluviosa with a much more southerly distribution (to Argentina) and that would no doubt be a hardier plant than what you have at Leu. I'll be interested to hear how yours recovers and its blooming activity in the wake of the freeze.

I spoke to Rob Bobson yesterday and he also suggested C. cassioides as a possibility, but I can't find much info or any good photos on that species. Others that look interesting to me are C. sappan (this grows into subtropical areas of southern China) and C. cacalaco, which looks to have some hardiness, and is used to some extent in Arizona.

I wonder if there are some other species from the Paraná area down into Argentina that might have some hardiness, though Lorenzi's book doesn't show any in the genus further south than Sao Paulo. Lewis's revision of the Poincianella-Erythrostemon group shows two species sharing geography with the hardy C. gilliesii (exilifolia, pumilio) but I can't find photos and from his drawings they don't look too showy.

[Eric in Orlando]

They are about 5yrs old from seed, none have flowered yet.

One Caesalpinia that is fairly hardy is C. decapetala var. sepiaria. It tolerates upper 20s with no damage. It does go bare in winter and is thorny as all. It grows as a sprawling shrub if unpruned.

[Fouquieria]

My two little Caesalpinia peltophoroides grew fine in pots but came to a standstill when I planted them in the ground. One has been in the ground for three years now and it doesn't look any different than when I planted it. It does leaf out in the Spring however. The other one I waited to plant out until it got bigger. It's been in the ground about a year. Hasn't grown since then.

I have C. cacalaco but it is a fairly slow grower too. Doesn't get so big and is more upright. Quite hardy and drought tolerant here in San Diego. I tried cutting the main branch to get it to branch out but that hasn't seemed to work.

I just started some seeds of C. paraguariensis which is grown quite successfully in Arizona. But they are only in small pots so its too soon to make an assessment.

[Gtlevine]

My C. Peltophoroids was planted last spring and flushed 3 times. This did not amount to alot of overall growth in height, but it is only about a two foot plant when I first planted it. So far it looks good during this winter and has not completely defoliated. We will just have to wait and see.

Gary

My two little Caesalpinia peltophoroides grew fine in pots but came to a standstill when I planted them in the ground. One has been in the ground for three years now and it doesn't look any different than when I planted it. It does leaf out in the Spring however. The other one I waited to plant out until it got bigger. It's been in the ground about a year. Hasn't grown since then.

I have C. cacalaco but it is a fairly slow grower too. Doesn't get so big and is more upright. Quite hardy and drought tolerant here in San Diego. I tried cutting the main branch to get it to branch out but that hasn't seemed to work.

I just started some seeds of C. paraguariensis which is grown quite successfully in Arizona. But they are only in small pots so its too soon to make an assessment.

[fastfeat]

C. cacalaco is best in high to extreme summer heat and relatively little water. It excels in Phoenix, but is pulpy and weak-wooded in milder Fullerton. It's a tree that is best with "stresses" applied; likely that wet-summer locations in US SE would result in excessive vegetative growth.

C. echinata is listed as a Zone 9 tree in Barwick and would probably be a good choice. Should be good w/summer rainfall as well.

C. ferrea has been at LA Arboretum (solid 9b) for years, has seen mid 20s at least a few times. Plants are available through several SoFla nurseries.

C. spinosa (current nomenclature?) used to be used as a street tree in Santa Barbara, but sort of fell out of favor. Tough, glossy-leafed, showy capsules. Probably rather cold-tolerant; not sure about tolerance of high rainfall though.

Edited January 26, 2010 by fastfeat

[mnorell]

Eric, Ron, Gary, fastfeat--

Thanks for that wealth of information.

Eric: I've heard of C. sepiaria for many years. Pix I found on a Japanese website look very different from your specimen, with richer yellow flowers, very densely numerous panicles and flowers not really droopy at all. But just as you describe it, it looks very thorny, and with the red petioles/midribs as in your photo.

Sounds like C. peltophoroides is something of a tricky grower. It certainly seems like a difference from all other Caesalpinias I've grown in the past, which are really fast, almost unstoppable growers. C. ferrea does seem much slower, though. Makes sense on some of these tree-form Caesalpinias in which the wood is prized for its durability and beauty. It makes sense that it's very hard wood and as we all know that usually means slow-growing (Brazil-wood is a Caesalpinia).

I know that huge, beautiful C. ferrea at the L.A. Arboretum very well, and I remember the accession tag said it was planted in the '50s. That means it has definitely seen about 20F, certainly in 1990 it would have been about there. It's out in the flats rather than up on Tallac Knoll (the latter being elevated and somewhat warmer than the rest of the arboretum).

I'll do some more research on paraguariensis, echinata and spinosa as well. I know I've seen spinosa years ago. I'm sure some of these unusual species stand at least a fighting chance here.

[Peter]

Michael, peltophoroides isn't tricky, it's just on the slow side. Ferrea is also somewhat slow in it's early life, but does really seem to pick up speed once it gets a bit of size, say around 6' or so. I can't get my peltophoroides up to any height to see if it's going to speed up. The pelto has much showier flowers, more of a spreading form, and beautiful red flushes of leaves.

[Gtlevine]

I have three C. Ferrea, one that is around 25 feet and it is stunning. Ferrea does not have the showy flowers that Peltophoroides has, but its leaves and trunk are second to none. So far C. Ferrea is the most tropical looking and most beautiful flowering tree I have found that grows well in cool conditions like So Cal winters. It is also quite a fast grower when compared to C. Peltophoroides.

Gary

[sick1166]

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[doubravsky]

Gary,

Do you have a pic of the C. Ferrea? I have one but it is young.. .only about 7 ft. tall, that I got from Steve Huston. I'd love to see how yours looks!

[Brian Bruning]

I'd like to get seeds or plants of C. cocolaco. Please contact me.

[fastfeat]

I'd like to get seeds or plants of C. cocolaco. Please contact me.

You might try rarepalmseeds.com

[Silas_Sancona]

Brian,

Another suggestion for seeds of this species is cactusstore.com in Phoenix. Purchased seed of C. mexicana form them, as well as several other species of desert type tropicals. Planning another trip down that way to pick up plants, including C. cacalaco later next month or in early August. If you are interested, send me a pm.

As for the species i have thus far, mexicana is the fastest and held most of its foliage throught the freeze we had this past Januaury (3 nights below 29, one night hitting 24f in the yard). The two largest specimens I have, barely 2ft tall presently, flowered and are setting seed. The othe three species, C. pulcherrima, platylobia, and C. pumila? are much slower.

Caesalpinia platylobia and pumila were added to my collection in April after my first trip to Arizona. Looking for peltophoroides and pauraguensis seed presently.

-Nathan-

Edited June 14, 2013 by Silas_Sancona

[_Keith]

Michael, what became of this? As you know, anything in Zone 9a I am interested in.

[Eric in Orlando]

One of our Caesalpinia pluviosa . var. peltophoroides finally died following the winters of 2009-10 and 2010-11. The other is alive and health but slow growing, its about 6-7ft tall now.

I just planted Caesalpinia cacalaco and C. paraguariensis out this week.

[Wave]

Hi, I would love to buy some or obtain some Caesalpinia peltrophoidees seed. I am in Australia on the Eastern Mid North Coast and have some other caesalpinia but would like some of these, and also to grow some as I have a little plant stall at our monthly markets. Can anyone help me or point me in the right direction.

[mnorell]

I don't know of any seed sources, but if you contact Rob Bobson at the Tropical Flowering Tree Society or at his company, Biospheric Engineering (you can find a link to his email and phone contact info in the "Links" section of their website at www.tfts.org), he can probably direct you to a seed-source.

And as an update from my own trialing, I can say that the specimen I planted up at my Natchez garden (zone 9a) in the spring of 2010 returned from the 2010-2011 winter (low 23F) from the base and grew back nicely; and had minimal damage from the following two winters, which were extremely mild (27F lows). 2013/2014, which was as bad as 2009/2010 (if not a little worse due to the long chilly spring) did it in. But it was in a very protected place up against the house, so that probably gave it a bump during the milder winters. I grow it down here in the Florida Keys, but the first specimen was heavily cut back by our many local Key Deer, and as it tried to return suffered greatly from micronutrient deficiencies on our limestone rock. It ultimately died and I replaced it with a larger specimen in a different location, on a mound, in black soil under slash pines for further acidification. It is a nice large specimen and looks good at 8' with a nice canopy. No flowers yet, but I would think this one will make the grade. So far, so good.

[SailorBold]

Here is a pic of my Caesalpinia pulcherrima.. heh heh.. just thought I would share. I didn't know there were other species and I will have to read up on them.

I don't think it will ever attain any real size in my climate but if it blooms every year Im happy. They are quite beautiful.

Blooming 2nd year:

[SailorBold]

Does anyone know if these can hybridize?