Mule Classification

[PalmGuyWC]

Probably 99% of the hybrid, Butia capitata X Syagrus romanzoffiana are commonly refered to as mules. In recent years Patrick Schafer has crossed Syagrus with other species of Butias, such as B. yata and B. paraguayensis. Reports come from Brazil of crosses wilth B. eriospatha and B. odorata and perhaps other Butia species. My question is: Can we continue to refer to all of these palms as mules?

Some are so new that we don't know what their adult characteristics will be, since they are still juveniles. Will one look that much different from the other? Soon B. archeri will come into play as there are several in cultivation of blooming size or about to become blooming size. It's a dwarf Butia, so if it will cross with Syagrus, it should look quite different from crosses with the larger Butias.

My own opinion is I would rather have them named specifically after the parents, because I want to know what I'm growing and look for the subtle differences. Mix in the other species that will cross with Butias and then it's going to become very complicated unless we are specific about the parents. Any thoughts?

Dick

[Alberto]

They are all X Butiagrus but not XButiagrus nabonandii or ´´mule palms´´ This name can only be applied to the hybrids between B.capitata and Syagrus romanzoffiana.

I have here: -Butia eriospatha x Syagrus romanzoffiana = ?

-B.eriospatha x Syagrus oleracea =?

-B.odorata x S. coronata =?

-B.odorata x S .oleracea =?

Seeds of Butia odorata x S.schyzophilla........

[PalmGuyWC]

Alberto,

Since you have some B. odorata hybrids, I presume you have some growing in your garden. Do you have any pics of them? Since odorata grows along the coast, I'm wondering how cold hardy they might be? B odorata X schyzophilla sounds interesting since they are both smaller palms. Have you tried crossing Lytocaryum with anything?

Dick

[Nigel]

Dick, wouldnt Mule apply to all those butia/syagrus hybrids that produce sterile seeds ?

I myself have produced a lot of Butia odorata x Syagrus rom seeds this year. I am interested to know Albertos results because my seeds are very small, and I suspect immensely difficult to germinate. A normal Butia odorata seed is small and very difficult to germinate and these are half the size, but with good endosperms and embryos.

[sick1166]

yep

[freakypalmguy]

I say no, I think they need to be called what they are, Butia X _____________, as they all have their distinct looks. I've got a Butia paraguayensis X Syagrus r. and at three years old, it already looks different than my Butyagrus. I'm really interested to see if this dwarf Butia, suddenly becomes a trunking palm, due to it's hybridization. It's growing at a very fast pace, exactly like my other hybrids and seems like it will.

[Tampa Scott]

I say no, I think they need to be called what they are, Butia X _____________, as they all have their distinct looks.

I agree with Matt on this, drop the Mule name out . A Mule is any hybrid between the donky and horse, not a palm.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Tampa Scott

[Alberto]

Alberto,

Since you have some B. odorata hybrids, I presume you have some growing in your garden. Do you have any pics of them? Since odorata grows along the coast, I'm wondering how cold hardy they might be? B odorata X schyzophilla sounds interesting since they are both smaller palms. Have you tried crossing Lytocaryum with anything?

Dick

Yes,I have them growing here and very surprising they are hardy and there is a thread about how the odoratas fare trough the winter in...Europe! It´s a mistery to me why a palm from frostfree souther coast of Brazil can be so hardy!

I tried pollen of Lytocarium on Butias with Zero fruits:( and queen pollen on Lytocarium that produces good seeds but they didn´t germinate....

[Alberto]

I myself have produced a lot of Butia odorata x Syagrus rom seeds this year. I am interested to know Albertos results because my seeds are very small, and I suspect immensely difficult to germinate. A normal Butia odorata seed is small and very difficult to germinate and these are half the size, but with good endosperms and embryos.

Nigel,the seeds are really VERY tiny. Patric was also surprised with the little size of this hybrid seeds.

They are not the easiest to germinate! I have seedlings of them but really hope for more....

Butia erio. x Jubaea are easy (normal B.eriospatha seed size) and B.erio. X S.oleracea ( smaller seeds then a pure B.eriospatha) a little more difficult to germinate and B.odorata X Syagrus are difficult,with really tiny seeds,but with good endosperm! A few are massive.

[Zeeth]

I think that they should be called what they actually are. Sure mule palm sounds catchy, but if we use it for every hybrid things will get really confusing!

I, myself, can't wait for someone to make a Butia capitata X Syagrus amara hybrid. Syagrus amara has a bulging trunk base, coconut like leaf scars on the trunk, fat leaves on a relatively flat plant, but it's just missing... something. It just doesn't say coconut to me like B. alfredii does. Maybe a hybrid with a Butia might bring something into the mix that makes it more coconutty.

[Nigel]

I say no, I think they need to be called what they are, Butia X _____________, as they all have their distinct looks. I've got a Butia paraguayensis X Syagrus r. and at three years old, it already looks different than my Butyagrus. I'm really interested to see if this dwarf Butia, suddenly becomes a trunking palm, due to it's hybridization. It's growing at a very fast pace, exactly like my other hybrids and seems like it will.

But surely as stated earlier, a Butia capitata x Syagrus romazoffiana is called xbutyagrus nabonnandii , but because its sterile its also nicknamed a mule.

On that basis surely all hybrids would have an official name xButyagrus blahdeblah or xbutyagrus bluedibleh but still all be mules ??

Anyway ,Alberto I am glad to hear your Butia odorata experience is the same when hybridised, I have an odorata now that is an absolute slut and I get almost 100% seedset and the hybrid seeds are obvious because small.

An a different note re germination, I had some xButyagrus seeds sent me from Elaine Lewis at Moultrie ,the first ones to germinate were all hybrids, the ones germinating now 1 year later appear to be Butias. Anybody else had this experience? Is the hybrid seed faster and easier to germinate ?

[PalmGuyWC]

Matt,

Interesting that you mention B. paraguayensis X Syagrus and the fact that it looks different from a regular mule. I'm sure the seed came from my B. para, but I haven't seen one of the plants yet. B. paraguayensis really isn't a dwarf palm, but it does have a very fat, squat trunk if any at all. The crown on mine is about the same size as a B. capitata.

Zeeth,

If you want to see a Butia X S. amara, it's going to be up to you guys in Florida to do it. You have the Butias and the S amara growing in Fla., but someone is going to have to collect the amara pollen, and they don't bloom until they are quite tall. It will take a tall ladder to reach the inflorescences. That would make a neat hybrid if it's possible.

Patrick Schafer went berserk last summer and used some far out pollens. He got an amazingly good seed set on some, but they are still in the process of being germinated. He is not ready to announce them yet until he's sure they are what they are supposed to be, but I think there will be some very nice surprises.

Nigel,

I can't answer your question about the speed of hybrid seeds, but Patrick would know.

Dick

[Zeeth]

Zeeth,

If you want to see a Butia X S. amara, it's going to be up to you guys in Florida to do it. You have the Butias and the S amara growing in Fla., but someone is going to have to collect the amara pollen, and they don't bloom until they are quite tall. It will take a tall ladder to reach the inflorescences. That would make a neat hybrid if it's possible.

I've got seeds of S. amara sprouting, but no green quite yet. I think it may be a while before they flower

Mark Heath has a S. amara growing and he is pretty good at hybridizing, hopefully his palm sets seed soon so we can see the hybrid.

[Tampa Scott]

Xbutyagrus nabonnandii (pic 1&2) was the mother of this baby in picture 3. So how can this one be called a mule? I have also used pollen from this Xbutyagrus to a Butia and have 2 offspring from it. So the mother is a Xbutyagrus nabonnandii but do not call it a mule.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Tampa Scott

[Tampa Scott]

and another shot of the baby....

[freakypalmguy]

I say no, I think they need to be called what they are, Butia X _____________, as they all have their distinct looks. I've got a Butia paraguayensis X Syagrus r. and at three years old, it already looks different than my Butyagrus. I'm really interested to see if this dwarf Butia, suddenly becomes a trunking palm, due to it's hybridization. It's growing at a very fast pace, exactly like my other hybrids and seems like it will.

But surely as stated earlier, a Butia capitata x Syagrus romazoffiana is called xbutyagrus nabonnandii , but because its sterile its also nicknamed a mule.

On that basis surely all hybrids would have an official name xButyagrus blahdeblah or xbutyagrus bluedibleh but still all be mules ??

I hear what you are saying Nigel, that makes sense. Butyagrus paraguayensis for my palm would work nicely and keep things more defined.

Matt

[ErikSJI]

I say no, I think they need to be called what they are, Butia X _____________, as they all have their distinct looks. I've got a Butia paraguayensis X Syagrus r. and at three years old, it already looks different than my Butyagrus. I'm really interested to see if this dwarf Butia, suddenly becomes a trunking palm, due to it's hybridization. It's growing at a very fast pace, exactly like my other hybrids and seems like it will.

But surely as stated earlier, a Butia capitata x Syagrus romazoffiana is called xbutyagrus nabonnandii , but because its sterile its also nicknamed a mule.

On that basis surely all hybrids would have an official name xButyagrus blahdeblah or xbutyagrus bluedibleh but still all be mules ??

We have always wanted to call the xbutyagrus the Riveria palm in honor of Paul Nabonnand however Mule palm was already floating out there.

I hear what you are saying Nigel, that makes sense. Butyagrus paraguayensis for my palm would work nicely and keep things more defined.

Matt

[DoomsDave]

Hmm.

To the extent that crosses are infertile, mule is accurate, which is also an infertile hybrid.

However, as more new crosses become prevalent, I'd like to see them id'd by what they are.

On my English Professor high (Mule). . . . .

[PalmGuyWC]

Hmm.

To the extent that crosses are infertile, mule is accurate, which is also an infertile hybrid.

However, as more new crosses become prevalent, I'd like to see them id'd by what they are.

On my English Professor high (Mule). . . . .

I agree with Professor high mule. I think we should call them what they are and no more "pet" names. I've never cared for the word "mule" to describe such a beautiful palm. I've lost the latest count, but Patrick Schafer must have creataed around 18 different hybrids. When you mix up different Butia species with different Syagrus, plus other species such as Parajubaea, Jubaea, Coconut and others, it is going to get very complicated, and who will able to remember all these pet names?

We already have 3 way crosses, Butia X Jubaea X (Syagrus). How could you describe it more clearly than that? There is also a Syagrus X (Butia X Jubea), and there will probably be more 3 way crosses in the future. I suppose "mule" will always be stuck onto Butia X Syagrus, Xbutyagrus Nabbonandi, since it was the first documented cocoid cross. This is only my opinion so I'm sure the pet names will crop up.

Now excuse me as I have to go back and pet Bettsy.

Dick

[freakypalmguy]

Here is my Butia paraguayensis X Syagrus r. form your tree Dick,

[freakypalmguy]

And for the heck of it, (Butia capitata X Jubea chilensis) X Syagrus rom. The rabbits have been chewing on the lower fronds.

[ErikSJI]

And for the heck of it, (Butia capitata X Jubea chilensis) X Syagrus rom. The rabbits have been chewing on the lower fronds.

Here is my Butia x syagrus x syagrus.

[PalmGuyWC]

Matt,

Nice looking palms. They should double in size this summer. Your B para X Syagrus looks like it is stiffer and has a heavier texture than a regular mule.

Dick

[PalmGuyWC]

Eric,

How did you get a Butia X Syagrus X (Syagrus) when mules are supposed to be sterile?

Dick