How do I stop killing all of my bare root seedlings? Help!

[Scott in San Diego]

Being the inexperienced palm tree grower that I am, I recently killed a couple dozen bare root seedlings sent to me in great condition from Florida. I purchased the following palm seedlings; Areca Triandra, Areca Vestia (Orange & Red), basselinia gracilis, Eurterpe edulis "orange", and chambeyronia macrocarpa. Can you please provide me with guidance what to do so I can stop killing beautiful palm tree seedlings?

Here's what I did:

1. I misted the bare roots of the seedlings (2"-3") with a spray bottle containing a mix of Super Thrive and tap water.

2. I mixed pearlite, sand and palm tree fertilizer into Miracle Grow Palm & Cactus Tree mix.

3. I placed the seedlings into individual plastic tree pots (12" height X 4" wide) and filled the pots with the above mix of dirt.

4. I placed the seedlings into a small plastic greenhouse I bought at Lowes in a full shade area of my yard.

5. I placed all the potted seedlings on top of a small seed warming mat which holds a temp of around 70-75 degrees. I placed a small fan inside the greenhouse to circulate the air.

6. I watered ( spray mist & also drip) the seedlings daily. The dirt was always moist and never dried out.

7. I live in San Diego, 11 miles inland from the ocean in a 10b zone. The outside temps have been around 70 degrees during the day and drop to 45 degrees at night. It's very dry.

All the seedling leaves look gray and dry even though I've provided plenty of water. Help! What did I do wrong? Thanks in advance for your feedback.

-Scott

[Joe palma]

Scott,

You probably fertilizer burned them. Most Miricale grow mixes have fertilizer and then you added more. Was the stuff you added controlled released?

I never add fertilizer to seedlings, especially at transplant time.

Also, if they are on a heat mat you have to check the bottom of the growing container to make sure the soil there is not drying out.

If you can't see the soil from the bottom of the container, that makes things difficult. You have have to turn upside down and pop the soil and plant out to see. 12" is tall for seedlings so they probably had enough moisture.

-j

[Trópico]

7. ... It's very dry.

Enough said...

[peachy]

As someone who has killed many many seedlings that arrived in perfect health, I noticed a few things that may have contributed to the demise of Scott's babies. I have learnt to do the following, I pot them up in a good light potting mix with about one third pearlite mixed in. Once in the pot I water them in with a seaweed solution. Then a follow up watering next day, from then on I only water them when they are really dry. I use a liquid fertiliser every 4 weeks and keep them in a shady place. Euterpe edulis sp orange crownshaft do better for me indoors when they are small, out of the heat and wind. The other thing I have learnt is not to buy from a warm winter climate if you are in a cool winter climate. No matter what you use for heating, the losses are always very very high, turning grey and shrivelling up as Scott described. It is better to wait until late spring or early summer when the temperature difference is less drastic. Lastly I would say don't overpot seedlings, just enough space for some root growth and so they can access all the water supplied.

Peachy

Edited March 25, 2010 by peachy

[Scott in San Diego]

As someone who has killed many many seedlings that arrived in perfect health, I noticed a few things that may have contributed to the demise of Scott's babies. I have learnt to do the following, I pot them up in a good light potting mix with about one third pearlite mixed in. Once in the pot I water them in with a seaweed solution. Then a follow up watering next day, from then on I only water them when they are really dry. I use a liquid fertiliser every 4 weeks and keep them in a shady place. Euterpe edulis sp orange crownshaft do better for me indoors when they are small, out of the heat and wind. The other thing I have learnt is not to buy from a warm winter climate if you are in a cool winter climate. No matter what you use for heating, the losses are always very very high, turning grey and shrivelling up as Scott described. It is better to wait until late spring or early summer when the temperature difference is less drastic. Lastly I would say don't overpot seedlings, just enough space for some root growth and so they can access all the water supplied.

Peachy

[Scott in San Diego]

Peachy, thanks for taking the time to provide feedback. I will follow your recommendation on my next order of seedlings. Wish I was in Australia, all of the really cool exotic palms grow there!

Cheers.....

[Scott in San Diego]

Scott,

You probably fertilizer burned them. Most Miricale grow mixes have fertilizer and then you added more. Was the stuff you added controlled released?

I never add fertilizer to seedlings, especially at transplant time.

Also, if they are on a heat mat you have to check the bottom of the growing container to make sure the soil there is not drying out.

If you can't see the soil from the bottom of the container, that makes things difficult. You have have to turn upside down and pop the soil and plant out to see. 12" is tall for seedlings so they probably had enough moisture.

-j

[Scott in San Diego]

Joe, thanks for providing guidance. I bet your right, I probably killed them with fertilizer. I have to remember they are fragile and not 15 gallon palms. By the way, all of the palms I bought from you are doing great!

Thanks....Scott

[Chuck B]

Scott,I went through that a few years ago.I would recommend a few adjustments.1.It sounds like you may not be meeting their light requirements,meaning too much shade.Boost up their light percentages in small increments,but not too much or they burn as you know.If they're in too much shade,photosynthesis slows down,and they brown out,giving an appearance of being to dry,but the exact opposite can be occurring.

2.As joe Palma says the pots are too big.If you keep the planting pot somewhat tight without too much extra dirt you get a quick drain,and it's almost impossible to overwater.I usually just keep them in the little 4 inch pots they come in for awhile.When I see roots coming out the bottom,or I feel they need some newer soil,then I step them up,and even then not too big of a pot.Remember,a lot of these palms come from mountainous rainforest regions,that get lots of water,but it drains off quickly.If they're in big pots, drainage will be slower and not even.In small pots you can water frequently with no problems.

3.I would change your soil mix.Skip the granular fertilizer,keep the sand and perlite,but add in some rich potting soil to get a rich,slightly gritty sandy mix,that drains fast.You can fertilize with slightly diluted liquid fertilizers.

4.I have found the Areca vestiaria,and Basselinia species to be pretty finicky so don't despai,others on this board have problems with them also.

[John in Andalucia]

Ditto what Chuck said. I have an almost identical climate to you Scott, and I gave up on Areca vestiaria and trianda. Areca concinna are quite easy to raise from seed. Likewise, there are rarer Basselinia that are easier to grow than those dainty B. gracilis. You might try Basselinia pancheri. They have tough little leaves and although slow, will keep on growing.

[Trópico]

Very low humidity is the #1 killer of my seedlings. It happens during winter here. Even if I protect seedlings from nighttime temps the super low humidity will start to dessicate the leaves of the more tropical species. This dessication will tend to stress the palm to the point of growth stop and eventual BUD ROT. It's very dissappointing; I lost a Gronophyllum seedling this way a couple of weeks ago. So, in your case, I suppose the drastic change from Florida humidity levels to San Diego's was just too much. I used to mist daily but half an hour later the seedlings were just as dry. The only way you could protect them, and I will have to do too, is to get a large fishbowl and completely air tight them. PLEASE consider this fact, don't overlook it!

[John in Andalucia]

Frank, you have a good point, and I'm actually keeping a fantasy alive at the moment, growing Lemur Palm and Lipstick Palm seedlings in a big container full of wet vermiculite! They've grown well over winter in a heated cupboard, and now I bring the box out on the bench during the day, and leave the lid off for a few hours to try and acclimatise them. I've got plenty brown tips in the greenhouse from this past, miserable, grey winter.

[Trópico]

I checked the humidity levels of San Diego and they are 54% which is not bad at all. So the fertilizer levels like others have said is probably the main thing.

[Trópico]

Strangely enough my Lipstick has been VERY robust for me even in sub 20% humidity levels. Not even an off green leaf yet! At least my last survivor which is now the mom and 5 pups. The predecessors died of wimpyness. I attribute it to being in a small terra cotta pot, but I don't know. This one was an oddball with a smaller seed and germinated much later than the others.

[Scott in San Diego]

Scott,I went through that a few years ago.I would recommend a few adjustments.1.It sounds like you may not be meeting their light requirements,meaning too much shade.Boost up their light percentages in small increments,but not too much or they burn as you know.If they're in too much shade,photosynthesis slows down,and they brown out,giving an appearance of being to dry,but the exact opposite can be occurring.

2.As joe Palma says the pots are too big.If you keep the planting pot somewhat tight without too much extra dirt you get a quick drain,and it's almost impossible to overwater.I usually just keep them in the little 4 inch pots they come in for awhile.When I see roots coming out the bottom,or I feel they need some newer soil,then I step them up,and even then not too big of a pot.Remember,a lot of these palms come from mountainous rainforest regions,that get lots of water,but it drains off quickly.If they're in big pots, drainage will be slower and not even.In small pots you can water frequently with no problems.

3.I would change your soil mix.Skip the granular fertilizer,keep the sand and perlite,but add in some rich potting soil to get a rich,slightly gritty sandy mix,that drains fast.You can fertilize with slightly diluted liquid fertilizers.

4.I have found the Areca vestiaria,and Basselinia species to be pretty finicky so don't despai,others on this board have problems with them also.

[Scott in San Diego]

Scott,I went through that a few years ago.I would recommend a few adjustments.1.It sounds like you may not be meeting their light requirements,meaning too much shade.Boost up their light percentages in small increments,but not too much or they burn as you know.If they're in too much shade,photosynthesis slows down,and they brown out,giving an appearance of being to dry,but the exact opposite can be occurring.

2.As joe Palma says the pots are too big.If you keep the planting pot somewhat tight without too much extra dirt you get a quick drain,and it's almost impossible to overwater.I usually just keep them in the little 4 inch pots they come in for awhile.When I see roots coming out the bottom,or I feel they need some newer soil,then I step them up,and even then not too big of a pot.Remember,a lot of these palms come from mountainous rainforest regions,that get lots of water,but it drains off quickly.If they're in big pots, drainage will be slower and not even.In small pots you can water frequently with no problems.

3.I would change your soil mix.Skip the granular fertilizer,keep the sand and perlite,but add in some rich potting soil to get a rich,slightly gritty sandy mix,that drains fast.You can fertilize with slightly diluted liquid fertilizers.

4.I have found the Areca vestiaria,and Basselinia species to be pretty finicky so don't despai,others on this board have problems with them also.

[tropicalb]

Scott...keep one thing in mind:

To become a good grower, you're gonna kill a LOT of palms.

[BS Man about Palms]

I checked the humidity levels of San Diego and they are 54% which is not bad at all. So the fertilizer levels like others have said is probably the main thing.

Frank- "San Diego" (county) can be very tricky with humidity levels. It is NOT UNCOMMON at all to find a 40-50% humidity difference between the coast and inland 5-10 miles! Same goes for most of So Cal.

[Scott in San Diego]

Chuck,

Thanks for the feedback. I think you are right.......... I gave them too much shade, too much granular fertilizer, in too big of a pot and perhaps I have the wrong palm species ( Areca ) for a beginner in a San Diego climate. The small seedlings that came potted are doing fine, they appear to have volcanic rock, pearlite and a little soil. I bet you can grow just about anything in your climate, right?

Muchas gracias por tu ayuda hermano.

[Scott in San Diego]

Scott...keep one thing in mind:

To become a good grower, you're gonna kill a LOT of palms.

It's a painful process to watch them become brown and die.

I can only get better at growing. Thanks.

[Scott in San Diego]

I checked the humidity levels of San Diego and they are 54% which is not bad at all. So the fertilizer levels like others have said is probably the main thing.

Frank- "San Diego" (county) can be very tricky with humidity levels. It is NOT UNCOMMON at all to find a 40-50% humidity difference between the coast and inland 5-10 miles! Same goes for most of So Cal.

I live about 11 miles inland, I think the humidity really low. I also get hit with the Santa Ana winds.

Thanks for responding. I'm getting a lot of really good information to use for my next order.

[Scott in San Diego]

Ditto what Chuck said. I have an almost identical climate to you Scott, and I gave up on Areca vestiaria and trianda. Areca concinna are quite easy to raise from seed. Likewise, there are rarer Basselinia that are easier to grow than those dainty B. gracilis. You might try Basselinia pancheri. They have tough little leaves and although slow, will keep on growing.

Tio, muchas gracias por la infomacion. Que tal todo en Sevilla? Hay mucha marcha alli.

I will try Areca concinna and Basselinia pancheri instead of the Areca vestiarias. Are the Dypsis species a better palm for our type of climate? I hope your answer is yes as I just ordered about ten different seedling species. I really like the Dypsis Saintelucei, paludosa, pilulifera and tokoravina. How about the Clinostigmas?

ps. My wife's from Madrid. I visit Spain each summer to visit her family. Although I've never lived here over the past 18 years I've studied and learned Spanish.

[Scott in San Diego]

7. ... It's very dry.

Enough said...

I understand you had some frost in Orlando this winter. How did your palms do?

[DoomsDave]

Being the inexperienced palm tree grower that I am, I recently killed a couple dozen bare root seedlings sent to me in great condition from Florida. I purchased the following palm seedlings; Areca Triandra, Areca Vestia (Orange & Red), basselinia gracilis, Eurterpe edulis "orange", and chambeyronia macrocarpa. Can you please provide me with guidance what to do so I can stop killing beautiful palm tree seedlings?

Here's what I did:

1. I misted the bare roots of the seedlings (2"-3") with a spray bottle containing a mix of Super Thrive and tap water.

2. I mixed pearlite, sand and palm tree fertilizer into Miracle Grow Palm & Cactus Tree mix.

3. I placed the seedlings into individual plastic tree pots (12" height X 4" wide) and filled the pots with the above mix of dirt.

4. I placed the seedlings into a small plastic greenhouse I bought at Lowes in a full shade area of my yard.

5. I placed all the potted seedlings on top of a small seed warming mat which holds a temp of around 70-75 degrees. I placed a small fan inside the greenhouse to circulate the air.

6. I watered ( spray mist & also drip) the seedlings daily. The dirt was always moist and never dried out.

7. I live in San Diego, 11 miles inland from the ocean in a 10b zone. The outside temps have been around 70 degrees during the day and drop to 45 degrees at night. It's very dry.

All the seedling leaves look gray and dry even though I've provided plenty of water. Help! What did I do wrong? Thanks in advance for your feedback.

-Scott

Scott:

I've killed a few seedlings in my time, and gotten three thousand plus (including more than 600 Chambeyroneas), bare root, to thrive, some of which ended up in my garden. The rest got sold.

First, don't sweat it, try again. We'll make sure you get them to grow.

Keep them out of the sun, and out of the wind. The greenhouse is a great idea, but put it in the shade, and watch the temps. Heat's good, but not too hot. If you have a greenhouse, I don't think you need a heat mat at all.

I've never had a greenhouse.

I don't use fertilizers. Use regular potting soil, if you can, avoid fancy stuff. Fertilizer is not what baby plants need, but moisture and shelter from sun and wind. Even desert plants (which yours certainly are not) have to be shaded and sheltered till they root in.

Try again, and let us know how they do.

I just got some in from Hawaii last weekend, and so far so good . . . .

Oh, and welcome to our board!

As you can see, we live to help out fellow-sufferers of Palm-Nut-osis . . . . .

[Scott in San Diego]

Being the inexperienced palm tree grower that I am, I recently killed a couple dozen bare root seedlings sent to me in great condition from Florida. I purchased the following palm seedlings; Areca Triandra, Areca Vestia (Orange & Red), basselinia gracilis, Eurterpe edulis "orange", and chambeyronia macrocarpa. Can you please provide me with guidance what to do so I can stop killing beautiful palm tree seedlings?

Here's what I did:

1. I misted the bare roots of the seedlings (2"-3") with a spray bottle containing a mix of Super Thrive and tap water.

2. I mixed pearlite, sand and palm tree fertilizer into Miracle Grow Palm & Cactus Tree mix.

3. I placed the seedlings into individual plastic tree pots (12" height X 4" wide) and filled the pots with the above mix of dirt.

4. I placed the seedlings into a small plastic greenhouse I bought at Lowes in a full shade area of my yard.

5. I placed all the potted seedlings on top of a small seed warming mat which holds a temp of around 70-75 degrees. I placed a small fan inside the greenhouse to circulate the air.

6. I watered ( spray mist & also drip) the seedlings daily. The dirt was always moist and never dried out.

7. I live in San Diego, 11 miles inland from the ocean in a 10b zone. The outside temps have been around 70 degrees during the day and drop to 45 degrees at night. It's very dry.

All the seedling leaves look gray and dry even though I've provided plenty of water. Help! What did I do wrong? Thanks in advance for your feedback.

-Scott

Scott:

I've killed a few seedlings in my time, and gotten three thousand plus (including more than 600 Chambeyroneas), bare root, to thrive, some of which ended up in my garden. The rest got sold.

First, don't sweat it, try again. We'll make sure you get them to grow.

Keep them out of the sun, and out of the wind. The greenhouse is a great idea, but put it in the shade, and watch the temps. Heat's good, but not too hot. If you have a greenhouse, I don't think you need a heat mat at all.

I've never had a greenhouse.

I don't use fertilizers. Use regular potting soil, if you can, avoid fancy stuff. Fertilizer is not what baby plants need, but moisture and shelter from sun and wind. Even desert plants (which yours certainly are not) have to be shaded and sheltered till they root in.

Try again, and let us know how they do.

I just got some in from Hawaii last weekend, and so far so good . . . .

Oh, and welcome to our board!

As you can see, we live to help out fellow-sufferers of Palm-Nut-osis . . . . .

Thanks for the warm welcome and information Dave. I'm not going to give up! When I started my back yard tropical landscape project a year ago I bought a bunch of 15 gallon Foxtails, Purpureas, Maximas and Alexanandraes. They were big enough for me to make mistakes on fertilizer and watering without killing them. However, seedlings are another story! Have you been successful in growing any of these palms in your climate: Cyphophoenix Elegans, Pinga Javana, Prestoea Acuminata or Cyphophoenix Alba?

-Scott

[DoomsDave]

Hmm. 15 is the number of Satan . ...

Smaller plants are much better, once you learn the tricks, and you will, oh yes . . . .

[picking up guitar like Hendrix and playing are u 'sperienced? well not really)

[MattyB]

Scott, take a look at the back of the Miracle Grow soil mix you're using. I think the one you're using has a pot with a red circle slash through it and is intended for in ground use only.

It seems like you killed 'em with too much love. A light potting mix ammended with perlite, a very small amount of fertilizer, and a bright spot out of the direct sun should be good.