Are there Butia capitatas growing outside Brazil?

[Alberto]

.............One is much more Greener and the other is a more Bluer one. The Bluer one shot up very quickly in comparison to the Green one. The Green one was slower to shoot up but has made a lot thicker trunk in that same period. The Green one is more susceptible to spotting than the Blue one. The Blue one has clean Green petioles where as the Green one has a distinct mottling on the petioles.

Regards Andy.

Andy, the b.catarinensis I saw in habitat are little palms, thinner leaflets, generally blue.

B.odorata are big palms!

[Erik]

Fascinating.

Palms are a hobby for me; by training I'm a Zoologist. So, I am rather naive about plants.

With animals, we use DNA to distinguish varieties/species. Even in the hobby. For example, my wife and I breed Andalusian horses. We sell semen. We have to have a judge (from Spain) determine that our stallion meets morphological criteria established long ago. However, in the 21st century, we also need DNA evidence that he is pure Andalusian. We also have DNA data about his alleles at loci related to color so we can tell mare owners who have comparable DNA data the odds of different foal colors.

So, my naive question, can't we in the palm hobby ask for DNA data from nurseries, who would presumably get that from their seed suppliers? --Erik

[Nigel]

Andy, the b.catarinensis I saw in habitat are little palms, thinner leaflets, generally blue.

B.odorata are big palms!

Alberto, it is very ironic that the palm we all called odorata was the small Butia from the beach here,when in fact i suspect it is the biggest Butia of them all !

[edbrown_III]

Alberto

Good to hear from you!

relative to the commentary , I was wondering the same thing about B. capitata about 15 years ago. The odorata and other variety were not differentiated from B. capitata in 1996. The question for me was " were there B. yatay eriospatha or paraguayensis characters in the Butia populations in Jax.

I did a little research of where the Butia came from --- Brasil in North Florida via Glen St Mary Nurseries also there was a monk who grew the plants in a Monatery in this area. I am writing fro memory.

To increase my knowledge. I went and collected data from about 50 or so Butia in different parts of the city. I looked at seed size etc # of rhachilla , leaf charateristics, peduncle striations, and tomentum. I have the note book with data somewhere but I recall all these were

B. capitata per 1996 nomenclature. --- Seeds were too small for B. yatai, but too big for the other species. beside B. capitata.

If I can find the book I will review with the question does this meet criteria for B., odorata or what ever. I didnt buy the first edition of Palmeras Brasileros until a year later .

This is a very interesting thread.

Best regards

Ed

[GTClover]

Fascinating.

Palms are a hobby for me; by training I'm a Zoologist. So, I am rather naive about plants.

With animals, we use DNA to distinguish varieties/species. Even in the hobby. For example, my wife and I breed Andalusian horses. We sell semen. We have to have a judge (from Spain) determine that our stallion meets morphological criteria established long ago. However, in the 21st century, we also need DNA evidence that he is pure Andalusian. We also have DNA data about his alleles at loci related to color so we can tell mare owners who have comparable DNA data the odds of different foal colors.

So, my naive question, can't we in the palm hobby ask for DNA data from nurseries, who would presumably get that from their seed suppliers? --Erik

Hi Erik, I worked for a Molecular Bio Lab that ran sequencing samples 24hrs a day and the vast majority of samples were animal in origin as many more of these genomes are known. Of course this lab was in a medical school (& part of a College with a strong Biology Dept), so the bias is to be expected and I believe sequences of plant genomes are catching up. However it seems that so many of these new palm species are just being discovered,so it will be awhile before it catches up with the horse breeding world. (More knowledgeable people should jump it here...)

BTW I was laid off from my long term position in June and though I will soon be going back to work, it's been the best opportunity to indulge in my horticultural hobbies. I love my palms! (Right, sorry that was another thread )

Susan

Edited May 7, 2010 by GTClover

[FRITO]

This throws a wrench into the Butia world...

we have many 'makes and models' here in N FL. ive collected from large round seed varietys to small american football shaped seed. blues, greens, silvers, blue/greens colors.

Around here you find a local variety you like (taste, cosmetically, or hardiness wise) and grow seeds from that particular one, goodluck trying to put a name on it other than "Butia sp."

Has any native populations of Butia in South America recorded single digit F temperatures? ( we have recorded 6F (-14.44) degrees and have many surivors.

[soro]

Now this is getting really interesting! I got some Butia seeds from my trips around the city but I have been struggling with their identification. Can anyone tell me just from the seed shape what these could be and what they are probably not? Please ignore the labels on the photo. Cheers, Marian(o)

[Nigel]

Now this is getting really interesting! I got some Butia seeds from my trips around the city but I have been struggling with their identification. Can anyone tell me just from the seed shape what these could be and what they are probably not? Please ignore the labels on the photo. Cheers, Marian(o)

These seeds are all consistent with Butia odorata from uruguay and south Rio Grande do Sul.

There are no real capitatas or catarinensis in these batches.

[PalmGuyWC]

Ed,

Do you have any data when Butias were first introduced to the USA through the Glen St. Mary nursery? I've always wondered when they first appeared in N. America. I've also wondered if the Butias on the West Coast came from another source or if they came from the E. Coast. There really aren't that many Butias growing in California compered to N. Fla, S Georgia and the Gulf coast.

Dick

[Alberto]

Now this is getting really interesting! I got some Butia seeds from my trips around the city but I have been struggling with their identification. Can anyone tell me just from the seed shape what these could be and what they are probably not? Please ignore the labels on the photo. Cheers, Marian(o)

That big round seeds (sp 2) also could be B.eriospatha like the other round seeds.....but are probably B.odorata:rolleyes:

[edbrown_III]

Ed,

Do you have any data when Butias were first introduced to the USA through the Glen St. Mary nursery? I've always wondered when they first appeared in N. America. I've also wondered if the Butias on the West Coast came from another source or if they came from the E. Coast. There really aren't that many Butias growing in California compered to N. Fla, S Georgia and the Gulf coast.

Dick

Dick,

Good to hear from you! I am enjoying some of the pictures of your yard--- I have a several from a few years back .

relative to your question, I scanned a email from Noblick and I have a few refferences still looking though. I had a log book of characteristics and am still looking for it. I can send what I have paper or electornic (pdf) if you dont mind emailing or pming a address ( phyical or cyber)

Best regards

Ed Brown edbrown_32003@yahoo.com

[kelen]

I have some difficulty to see differences between Butia capitata and Butia odorata. these pics are Butia capitata from Goias. Somebody know good visible differences between them?

[kelen]

These wonderful drawings are from Barbosa Rodrigues book.

[kelen]

a ONG from Uruguay made this book just about conservation of Butia capitata (or B. odorata)... cool!

[kelen]

this

[kelen]

,

[palmierbret]

These discutions about Butia capitata / catarinensis / odorata are very interesting, especially when you cross the field observations with the ones we can make in European gardens where butias are cultivated since 150 years.

During my researches on the acclimatization of palms in France, I’ve observed numerous Butia in the gardens of the Mediterranean Coast.

Butias with seeds lengthened, pointed in the extremities, with a shape close to the description of the thrue B. capitata, are extremely rare here. I found one exemplar in Antibes, in the garden of the villa Thuret (seeds from left on the photo). On the other hand, Butias with rounded seeds are plentiful in the gardens of South of France (seeds from the right).

Butia with rounded seeds off named odorata and also pulposa are more common in gardens here than the real Butia capitata.

Now the second step is to distinguish clearely in our gardens B. capitata from B. catarinensis.

Fred

[Nigel]

These discutions about Butia capitata / catarinensis / odorata are very interesting, especially when you cross the field observations with the ones we can make in European gardens where butias are cultivated since 150 years.

During my researches on the acclimatization of palms in France, I’ve observed numerous Butia in the gardens of the Mediterranean Coast.

Butias with seeds lengthened, pointed in the extremities, with a shape close to the description of the thrue B. capitata, are extremely rare here. I found one exemplar in Antibes, in the garden of the villa Thuret (seeds from left on the photo). On the other hand, Butias with rounded seeds are plentiful in the gardens of South of France (seeds from the right).

Butia with rounded seeds off named odorata and also pulposa are more common in gardens here than the real Butia capitata.

Now the second step is to distinguish clearely in our gardens B. capitata from B. catarinensis.

Fred

Fred, in my opinion the photo to the left would still fall into the category of rounded even though it is slightly elongated.

[palmierbret]

Hello Nigel,

Far from me the idea to contradict those who live in America and who are lucky to be surrounded with Butia!

Look at the plate extracted from the monograph of the genus Cocos (now Syagrus and Butia) written by O. Beccari in 1916 and published in the revue l'Agricoltura coloniale :

The shape of the seeds of Butia I've collected in the Villa Thuret in France are very close to the B. capitata typica. Was the B. capitata from Beccari monograph false too ?

Fred

[Nigel]

Hello Nigel,

Far from me the idea to contradict those who live in America and who are lucky to be surrounded with Butia!

Look at the plate extracted from the monograph of the genus Cocos (now Syagrus and Butia) written by O. Beccari in 1916 and published in the revue l'Agricoltura coloniale :

The shape of the seeds of Butia I've collected in the Villa Thuret in France are very close to the B. capitata typica. Was the B. capitata from Beccari monograph false too ?

Fred

Dear Fred,

The catarinensis fits with number 4 on your page. I can only say to you that in south central Rio Grande Do Sul , the seed tends to vary from the one on the left of your photo to the one on your right. This Butia is now classified as odorata, the Butia odorata of uruguay from which I have only received seeds but never seen , is much larger and more rounded,yet considered to be the same plant.

The plant in Rio Grande do Sul classified as yatay by Lorenzi and Noblick to my confusion differs from the yatay of Argentina, but has a much larger seed also which is almost Jubaea like.

Neither the seed in plate 9 or 10 is entirely rounded.

Having met Lorenzi just 4 months ago and discussed this with him in detail, I can only pass my opinion based on my discussion with him and my experiences here in the field.

The name capitata was given to the Butia capitata of central brasil solely on basis of being the first Butia to be described as capitata, or so Lorenzi informed me.

Edited May 30, 2010 by Nigel

[palmierbret]

Here a drawing of the Butia bonneti

Fred

[Alberto]

Here a drawing of the Butia bonneti

Fred

This trunkless or short trunking B.bonetti of this drawing fits somewhat B.catarinensis...Maybe to much plumose....

[Nigel]

Here a drawing of the Butia bonneti

Fred

This trunkless or short trunking B.bonetti of this drawing fits somewhat B.catarinensis...Maybe to much plumose....

Lorenzi and Noblick considered naming the Butia catarinensis as bonnettii but were not able to prove 100% that they were one and the same.

Indeed catarinensis blooms at a very yound age as does this plant.

Does Beccari give detail of provenance of his drawing ? The numbers of the seed on the photo also correspond directly to catarinensis.

This plant is almost certainly a catarinensis but if Lorenzi and Noblick couldnt prove it I am guessing it is not proveable.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Nigel

[palmierbret]

Nigel, Alberto,

Following the description of Butia bonneti with a note about its discover in France from Glassman (Gentes Herbarum Vol IV / 1936)

Regrettably, the name of B. bonneti is based on a single palm tree with a very uncertain origin (Mexico!) without herbarium specimen on which we can work today. I think it's for that reason that Lorenzi and Noblick cannot certify that Butia catarinensis & bonnettii are the same.

The horticulturalists of the 19th century were less rigorous than the botanists of the 21th century !

The only thing I am certain it is that now I shall have to be particularly attentive to the shape of seeds of the butias I'll meet in the old gardens of Côte d'Azur in France!

Fred

[Nigel]

Fred, thank you for posting such interesting information. It seems Butia bonnettii as described in your article is almost certainly the same as the catarinensis here.

I am intrigued by the seed and description Butia of leiospatha , could this be what we call Butia microspadix I wonder ?

I cant think of any other small Butia with this shape seed in south brasil.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Nigel

[SoulofthePlace]

I received supposedly 100 Butia Yatay seeds, but very few are elongated like in the above photos provide from a book, while many are round or quite round. How do I know they all are Butia Yatay seeds? Please take a look and tell me your opinion. I attach two photos of 20 seeds out of 100.

Edited May 17, 2011 by SoulofthePlace

[WestCoastGal]

Wow this is fascinating as we only last year purchased a 5-6 foot Butia ?, and it just recently developed two emerging spathes. I'm dying to know what I have and what characteristics it will have ultimately.

Thanks for posting the info on the new book BTW, as well as the other printed text and drawings and photos. In the few palm books that I have, Butias are mentioned, sometimes pictured, but not that much detail is given between the variations. I'm really happy to see that this new research has been done.

Edited May 30, 2011 by WestCoastGal

[Mantis sp.]

hy everyones!

i have some Butias, but ik dont know what type of butias are?I thought it was Butia capitata, but every day, the doubts are more. checkout this pics. thanx for response att Mantis.

[SoulofthePlace]

hy everyones!

i have some Butias, but ik dont know what type of butias are?I thought it was Butia capitata, but every day, the doubts are more. checkout this pics. thanx for response att Mantis.

Looks to me like Butia yatay, ne?

[Mantis sp.]

hy everyones!

i have some Butias, but ik dont know what type of butias are?I thought it was Butia capitata, but every day, the doubts are more. checkout this pics. thanx for response att Mantis.

Looks to me like Butia yatay, ne?

hy SoulofthePlace,both pics displayed in this wall are different, there are 2 types of Butias...the 1st, with leaflets in pairs of 2 or 3 along the raquis and very fibrous in its base . 2nd pic, simple leafvery blue-grey color aparience or glaucous....

[Takil-Explorer]

Here the area just outside Castillos where Butia odorata grows in large numbers. Well I guess those old Butias grown in Europe and North America under the old name B. capitata are from this area. Well at least La Rocha or the southern tip of Rio Grande do Sul in Brasil. The real Butia capitata grows in a much warmer tropical climate in Minas Gerais.

http://maps.google.nl/maps?hl=nl&ll=-34.119617,-53.830148&spn=0.027854,0.052571&t=h&z=15

Alexander

[SoulofthePlace]

There are some Butia capitatas growing on Pico island in the Azores.

[Rade]

Dear "palm friends",

Me and my friend were in Côte d'Azur in Cannes, and we found this interesting butia with somewhat overhanging - pendent leaflets. It was fruiting, seeds are round, looks like seeds of odorata. But B. odorata there growing everywhere and it have not overhanging leaflets except those, on picture.

What are you think is it?

Thanks

[SoulofthePlace]

Perhaps it is a hybrid of Jubaea chilensis and Butia capitata?

[Rade]

I don´t think so, seeds was almost same size as B. odorata, maybe about 10 - 20% bigger. Trunk also wasn´t thicker than odorata.

Foto of crownsahft:

[Alicehunter2000]

B. odorata "lax leaf" form......about 5% of our odorata exhibit this trait. There have been threads on this variation in the past. They are desirable IMO.

[Mandrew968]

Yes--MBC has at least one.

[Rade]

Thanks friends . We also found one odorata, that have 2x larger seed than other. I suppose, that she must have also bigger fruit - pulp. Is there any name for such odorata?

[Alicehunter2000]

Don't know about that one......any pictures?

[Rade]

Yes, there they are:

Trunk:

and look at crown:

Seeds are round and 2x bigger, than other odoratas, trunk is more than 1 meter thick