New fronds flopping

[junglegalfla]

Our winter carnage continues to show itself.

My foxtail, teddy & hurricane have all thrown new fronds that proceed to bend down and flop. Will the palm generally outgrow this?

[MattyB]

That's wierd. CPS, collapsing petiole syndrome. Not a real condition but one we've discussed before. It's usually a result of lack of water, but these plants look established and shouldn't be suffering from this. Do you have rats?

[junglegalfla]

No bite marks from rats or squirrel. This started happening right after the awful winter. These are well established and get regular water. Gina in Sarasota had the same happen to her foxtail.

[Rafael]

The same is happening with one of my queens, 5 mts tall. One by one, new and old fronds are kind of leaning (usually after strong wind episodes). New (but small) growth buds are emerging. This behaviour is really wired.

Edited May 10, 2010 by rafael

[gsn]

It's not really wierd...I have mentioned this before, it is CRYPTIC cold damage... people seem to think that just because a new spear is growing after the freeze that the palm will be fine...this is not always the case,sometimes the damage doesn't rear it's ugly head until warmer weather arrives as now, with increased heat the palms try to resume more natural(normal) growth. This is especially the case with crown shafted palms as the frond/spear recieves damage inside the crown(growing point),and doesn't fold over until it escapes the crown shaft.

Time will tell if they will grow out of this... Good luck with them Bren,I have more than a few doing the same thing.

The one positive is that it is just a frond that has collapsed and not the entire crown, if the crown collapses the fat lady has sung!

Edited May 10, 2010 by gsn

[Rafael]

I have seven grown queens, only this one behaved this way...

[amazon exotics]

It's not really wierd...I have mentioned this before, it is CRYPTIC cold damage... people seem to think that just because a new spear is growing after the freeze that the palm will be fine...this is not always the case,sometimes the damage doesn't rear it's ugly head until warmer weather arrives as now, with increased heat the palms try to resume more natural(normal) growth. This is especially the case with crown shafted palms as the frond/spear recieves damage inside the crown(growing point),and doesn't fold over until it escapes the crown shaft.

Time will tell if they will grow out of this... Good luck with them Bren,I have more than a few doing the same thing.

The one positive is that it is just a frond that has collapsed and not the entire crown, if the crown collapses the fat lady has sung!

Bingo !

[aztropic]

I believe that they will grow out of that condition.3 years ago,we had a few nights in the mid 20's and my queens and royals are just now recovering from those same floppy fronds.

aztropic

[Kailua_Krish]

My CIDP is doing this after this past winter

-Krishna

[epicure3]

Cold damage and death can vary widely from species to species and individual to individual. Only time will tell.

I wish that there was a more definite pattern to follow.

[DoomsDave]

Bren:

Some of my palms had that problem after January 2007. Almost all have outgrown.

Still, hurts to see, and sorry to see your pain.

Treat with fungicide, and keep us apprized. We're all learning, if nothing else.

[palmislandRandy]

Ahhh thats why my Neoveitchia frond fell over Fortunatly, theres a fresh one right behind it!

Randy

[junglegalfla]

Three years & just now recovering aztropic??

Well misery loves company. I know I'm not alone with my cryptic cold damage (thanks for the term gsn). Let's hope for the best & report back in a few months.

[aztropic]

Unfortunately,the growth rate of palms in Arizona is less than half what it is in Florida.

Most of the palms that completely defoliated took 2 years before they started looking respectable again,with a couple still not quite up to par.

aztropic

[gsn]

Unfortunately,the growth rate of palms in Arizona is less than half what it is in Florida.

Most of the palms that completely defoliated took 2 years before they started looking respectable again,with a couple still not quite up to par.

aztropic

Unfortunately even in Florida it takes most palms 2 FULL YEARS to completely regrow an entire new canopy,and that is if the year after a bad freeze it doesn't freeze again the following year!

And some never resume the vigor and robust growth they had before a hard freeze,they languish at ultra slow speed until something else does them in!

Edited May 11, 2010 by gsn

[Central Floridave]

I have the same thing happening over here on the East Coast, Florida. Teddy, hurricane, bottle, and x-mas. I can post identical like photos. I'm thinking they will grow out of it, but they are not happy!

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Looks a lot like my chambeyronia...

I don't think any of these palms will have trouble over coming this kind of damage... I think the problem as was mentioned earlier is that because of the damage we are seeing the palm will let off pheromones and other distress signals alerting insects and fungi that find the palm as a host and those secondary problems are going to prove themselves to be the fat lady. Best advice has been said and I'll echo it, lay on the fungicides and insecticidal stuff.... I'm trying Hydrogen peroxide regimen and a marigold/neem extract stuff.

[Central Floridave]

I wonder if it can be an insect gnawing on the growth points. Or a rat/squirrel. Sure, probably freeze damage, but maybe a twofold problem. I have seen some dead rats in my pond that have been trapped and drowned. Squirrels are always there. do they gnaw at palm growing points, for moisture? We are in dry season. I've climbed up a ladder and checked up close and it doesn't look like anything obvious. Maybe a caterpillar or something? Just brainstorming here. Probably just latent freeze damage. None of my red feathers show any damage so its surprising to see one damaged much further South than me.

[gsn]

I don't think Bills problem is the same as Brens, or yours, or mine.

Bills seems to be something entirely different, as he doesn't seem to have any cold damage on any of the other fronds ,but I could be wrong.

I would pretty much bet the farm that Brens problem as well as ours is delayed COLD damage ,and has nothing to to do with bugs or any other critters!

[www.dadluvsu.com]

I did notice a very tiny beetle that had a snout on it... Looked like a mini weevil of some sort. Bren, I hope your damages are just cold and your palms don't get critters in the cold wounds.

[Rafael]

Queen´s frond flopping. Bigger fronds missing, after flopping and cut.

Edited May 12, 2010 by rafael

[Kathryn]

Bren - How cold did you get? Did you have frost? My foxtail palms have shown leaf damage when exposed to temperatures around 28ºF and the next emerging leaves were always normal. I noticed that the older leaves on your palm look fine. It might be an effect of the cold, but it might be something else.

[junglegalfla]

Kathryn,

I want to say a low of 27 or 28. I stopped paying attention because it was so depressing. This winter was really brutal. It stayed cold (just above freezing) and wet for weeks at a time.

I may as well post my losses now too. Most were 3-5 gal size planted out last summer. Recently dug up and trashed

Actinokentia divaricata

Areca catechu (dwarf)

Areca ipot

Areca macrocarpa

Balaka seemanii

Basselinia glabrata

Calyptrocalyx "Yamutumune"

Carpentaria acuminata (2 of 4)

carpoxylon macrospermum (1 of 2)

Areca vestiaria 'red leaf clumping form'

Cocos nucifera - 8 ft

Dypsis psammophila

Hyophorbe indica 'red'

licuala grandis

Ptychosperma macarthurii

Veitchia arecina

besides the palms I lost almost an entire croton collection and too many tropicals to list. I almost wanted to throw in the towel but the bug just recently bit me again. If this winter is a repeat, I give up

[Steve the palmreader]

Bren Dont give up .Stand up and replant were are not Quiters. We didnt give up after the 1989 freeze

[redant]

Not only do I have the flopping fronds, which is very typical of cold events. I also have the new frond ejected mode, you will walk by the palm and see the emerging frond lying on the ground, snapped off the palm. In both these cases I think the palms will do OK as they are pushing new fronds. The ones with no growth are more worrisome to me.

Edited May 12, 2010 by redant

[Central Floridave]

"I also have the new frond ejected mode, you will walk by the palm and see the emerging frond lying on the ground, snapped off the palm"

some of my palms are doing that as well....its disheartening...

Hurricane Palm flop:

[Central Floridave]

Teddy Flop:

[Tyrone]

A solitary palm has one growing point and the floppiness now showing up is the damaged/malformed tissue that was forming right in the middle of the cold event. Boron has a lot to do with the formation of new tissue and it's possible that the uptake of boron was stopped by the cold. The resulting tissue has no strength, so once it escapes the crown it just falls over. Right at this point, it's probably creating new normal tissue and if it's pushing spears out I wouldn't be worried. If there are black necrotic bit's and pieces down the middle I'd definitely hit it with fungicide to prevent secondary fungal infections.

Best regards

Tyrone

[spockvr6]

Not only do I have the flopping fronds, which is very typical of cold events. I also have the new frond ejected mode, you will walk by the palm and see the emerging frond lying on the ground, snapped off the palm. In both these cases I think the palms will do OK as they are pushing new fronds.

Same here.

[Kathryn]

besides the palms I lost almost an entire croton collection and too many tropicals to list.

That really sucks Bren. This winter the worst we had since the 1989 cold event. The temperatures were below freezing for over a week without much warming during the day. The lowest night at my house was around 20ºF. Most of the plants I lost were ones that I expected wouldn't last long term. They will be replaced with more cold hardy species.

Happy planting!

[Rafael]

A solitary palm has one growing point and the floppiness now showing up is the damaged/malformed tissue that was forming right in the middle of the cold event. Boron has a lot to do with the formation of new tissue and it's possible that the uptake of boron was stopped by the cold. The resulting tissue has no strength, so once it escapes the crown it just falls over. Right at this point, it's probably creating new normal tissue and if it's pushing spears out I wouldn't be worried. If there are black necrotic bit's and pieces down the middle I'd definitely hit it with fungicide to prevent secondary fungal infections.

Best regards

Tyrone

Great explanation Tyrone, thanks!

My queen has maybe 3 new emerging buds, all of them still small, but growing.... Lets see! But i am not quite sure it is a question of cold damage...the other six did fine (as we have reached only -3,8ºC - that's no problem to queens)

[Tyrone]

A solitary palm has one growing point and the floppiness now showing up is the damaged/malformed tissue that was forming right in the middle of the cold event. Boron has a lot to do with the formation of new tissue and it's possible that the uptake of boron was stopped by the cold. The resulting tissue has no strength, so once it escapes the crown it just falls over. Right at this point, it's probably creating new normal tissue and if it's pushing spears out I wouldn't be worried. If there are black necrotic bit's and pieces down the middle I'd definitely hit it with fungicide to prevent secondary fungal infections.

Best regards

Tyrone

Great explanation Tyrone, thanks!

My queen has maybe 3 new emerging buds, all of them still small, but growing.... Lets see! But i am not quite sure it is a question of cold damage...the other six did fine (as we have reached only -3,8ºC - that's no problem to queens)

You'll find as soil temps get higher, which they already have, they'll grow out of it.

Best regards

Tyrone

[gsn]

I don't think it is a lack of Boron being uptaken,personally.I beleive it is out right COLD damage at the growing point in the crown shaft at the time of the cold, not a lack of a minor element not being available, because of the cold.

To me if it was lack of a minor element element like boron, the damaged frond wouldn't be damaged at just ONE point which is what we are seeing,(breaking,soft tissue ,discolored at one point only, where the break is) but it would extend into most or all of the developing frond where it is growing inside the crownshaft. Seeems the entire frond would affected if it was a boron or minor element uptake issue IMHO!

Coconut are notorious for not being able to take up both macro and micro nutrients at colder temps,but it affects ALL the fronds ,not just the ones at the growing point. Actually the lower fronds are usually first affected by not being able to uptake nutrients at colder soil temps!

Edited May 15, 2010 by gsn

[Jeff Searle]

It's not really wierd...I have mentioned this before, it is CRYPTIC cold damage... people seem to think that just because a new spear is growing after the freeze that the palm will be fine...this is not always the case,sometimes the damage doesn't rear it's ugly head until warmer weather arrives as now, with increased heat the palms try to resume more natural(normal) growth. This is especially the case with crown shafted palms as the frond/spear recieves damage inside the crown(growing point),and doesn't fold over until it escapes the crown shaft.

Time will tell if they will grow out of this... Good luck with them Bren,I have more than a few doing the same thing.

The one positive is that it is just a frond that has collapsed and not the entire crown, if the crown collapses the fat lady has sung!

I totally agree. Now if only more people would listen when your advice is given.

Jeff

[BS Man about Palms]

I do know Boron is critical to the "bone building" part of the palms growth, not color, etc. As to its ability to absorbed in different soils at what temps, I'd like to see studies on that.